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Frustrated With Swirls
Posted by David Adler
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Frustrated With Swirls October 01, 2003 07:00AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 6 |
<HTML>I have had cob web swirls in my clear coat ever since I put too much pressure using my Random Orbital. I have a dark blue 2001 Passat. I just recently paid a detailer I trust to buff out the 'cob webs' with his high speed equiptment. The car looked great for a week but now I can see the swirls again! He said he removed most of the swirls but now they seem to be back. Maybe they were just covered up. You can see the cob webs especially when the car is in the sun. Just to make sure, are they swirls or scratches? You cant feel them and cant see them unless there is sun or bulb light. Is it unrealistic to think they can be removed?
thanks.</HTML>
thanks.</HTML>
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Re: Frustrated With Swirls October 01, 2003 11:00PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 894 |
<HTML>They can be removed when handled correctly sure. Two things could have happend, you could have used the wrong polish(one that is designed to break down with the heat and speed of a high speed polisher) with your orbital waxer, or, you could have had a dirty finish and rubbed dirt in with the orbital causing some marring.
Nothing against your detailer because I have no idea how bad your swirls are, but sometimes when the wrong pad is used with the wrong comound, a detailer could drive the swirls deeper, kind of like chasing the swirls when leveling out the clear coat. Sounds like he used a glaze that wore off after 30 days and revealed what was really going on with the paint, hopefully he didnt grind the paint to bad.
But then again I have no idea because I cant see the paint.
This is what I would have done, which is very abrasive, but it would repair the swirls to the fullest extent.
1.Clay bar
2.High speed with 4 ply clear coat cutting pad(the synthetic/wool blended) and appropriate compound
3. high speed foam cutting pad w/ compound
4. Dual action polisher w/ foam polishing pad and meguars #66
5. In between each step Im wiping the surface to ensure a clean surface to not cause swirls.
6 Rinse vehicle of dust
7. Finish with a quality sealant.
This is my proffesional approach to correct this issue, black is a pain in the ass! I still cringe when I know I have to buff on a black car. I would take it to a VERY reputable detailer. Ask him questions about his steps and why he is going with that approach. Good luck to ya!</HTML>
Nothing against your detailer because I have no idea how bad your swirls are, but sometimes when the wrong pad is used with the wrong comound, a detailer could drive the swirls deeper, kind of like chasing the swirls when leveling out the clear coat. Sounds like he used a glaze that wore off after 30 days and revealed what was really going on with the paint, hopefully he didnt grind the paint to bad.
But then again I have no idea because I cant see the paint.
This is what I would have done, which is very abrasive, but it would repair the swirls to the fullest extent.
1.Clay bar
2.High speed with 4 ply clear coat cutting pad(the synthetic/wool blended) and appropriate compound
3. high speed foam cutting pad w/ compound
4. Dual action polisher w/ foam polishing pad and meguars #66
5. In between each step Im wiping the surface to ensure a clean surface to not cause swirls.
6 Rinse vehicle of dust
7. Finish with a quality sealant.
This is my proffesional approach to correct this issue, black is a pain in the ass! I still cringe when I know I have to buff on a black car. I would take it to a VERY reputable detailer. Ask him questions about his steps and why he is going with that approach. Good luck to ya!</HTML>
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Re: Frustrated With Swirls October 02, 2003 12:56AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 6 |
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Re: Frustrated With Swirls October 02, 2003 04:03AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 894 |
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Re: Frustrated With Swirls October 02, 2003 07:01AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 6 |
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Re: Frustrated With Swirls October 03, 2003 04:40AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 34 |
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Re: Frustrated With Swirls October 04, 2003 04:46PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 121 |
<HTML>David:
Swirl marks and cob-webbing are two different things. Identifying which one you actually have is a very important step in choosing your method of removal.
Cob-webbing is caused by poor washing and drying techniques. Looks like a spiders web on the surface at any angle. It will appear to be this way all over the vehicle. These are tiny scratches normally.
Swirl marks are caused by an abrasive being swirled around between the buffing pad and the surface of the car. In the light they will appear to be curved lines. They Look like halograms. They can also appear deeper if there is improper handling of the rotary.
Both can be eliminated. A clean environment to work in with good lighting is one key you will need to be successful. Most swirl marks I have found can be eliminated with a good micro-finishing/swirl mark product using light to medium pressure starting out, and then letting up on the pressure before you see the product drying out, to bring up the gloss. A lot of products will put swirl marks right back into the surface if you continue to buff after they have dried out. Buffing "wet" works much better. After you have buffed a small section, wipe any residue from the surface with a 50/50 blend of water and isopropyl alchol, microfiber towel, and check your work. Are the swirls still there? or any change? repeat process until you are satisfied.
It can be a lot of work on some vehicles, and some will not have enough surface topcoat for you to safely accomplish a swirl free finish. Measuring paint thickness, cleanliness, lighting, technique, right products and pads, and practice will help you get there.</HTML>
The problems of yesterday have produced the blessings of today.
Lot-A-Details, In Seattle
Swirl marks and cob-webbing are two different things. Identifying which one you actually have is a very important step in choosing your method of removal.
Cob-webbing is caused by poor washing and drying techniques. Looks like a spiders web on the surface at any angle. It will appear to be this way all over the vehicle. These are tiny scratches normally.
Swirl marks are caused by an abrasive being swirled around between the buffing pad and the surface of the car. In the light they will appear to be curved lines. They Look like halograms. They can also appear deeper if there is improper handling of the rotary.
Both can be eliminated. A clean environment to work in with good lighting is one key you will need to be successful. Most swirl marks I have found can be eliminated with a good micro-finishing/swirl mark product using light to medium pressure starting out, and then letting up on the pressure before you see the product drying out, to bring up the gloss. A lot of products will put swirl marks right back into the surface if you continue to buff after they have dried out. Buffing "wet" works much better. After you have buffed a small section, wipe any residue from the surface with a 50/50 blend of water and isopropyl alchol, microfiber towel, and check your work. Are the swirls still there? or any change? repeat process until you are satisfied.
It can be a lot of work on some vehicles, and some will not have enough surface topcoat for you to safely accomplish a swirl free finish. Measuring paint thickness, cleanliness, lighting, technique, right products and pads, and practice will help you get there.</HTML>
The problems of yesterday have produced the blessings of today.
Lot-A-Details, In Seattle
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Re: Frustrated With Swirls October 05, 2003 07:46AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 6 |
<HTML>SAB, I was afraid they might be two different things. You can only see the swirls in sunlight or under a parking lot light at night. But they do look like cob webs. light scratches that go in circles. I think I put them in by putting too much pressure using the porter cable buffer. Do swirl marks look like scratches? The cobwebbing I have look like superficial scratches. What are proper washing techniques? I thought I was doing it the right way.
thanks,
Dave</HTML>
david
thanks,
Dave</HTML>
david
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Re: Frustrated With Swirls October 07, 2003 04:55AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 121 |
<HTML>David:
What you speak of is cob-webbing, if this is a daily driver it will be difficult to keep the finish from this affect. Normal wear and tear of everyday driving will cause this, and can become still worse with poor washing habits. Exactly what techniques and tools are you using when you wash? It may not be the way you wash or what you use, but I think it is worth taking a look at.
Clean mitts, sponges, chamois, towels, which ever you are using they have to be clean, lots of water, and just the right amount of car shampoo I have found always works just fine.
There are lots of different ways that swirl marks are introduced to the surface coat. Any of the tools that are mentioned on this board when working with painted surfaces, can put swirls or scratches in the paint. As I have mentioned before, scratches and swirl marks are not the same thing, though if you look at a swirl mark under a magnifying glass it looks like a bunch of micro-fine scratches or the road into town.
The cob-webbing can be eliminated, but they will return, it is inevitable, especially if it is a daily driver. I did a black mercedes a while back for this guy, lots of swirls. It took me the better part of a day to do this car, and when I was finished it looked fantastic. A week later he let one of his lot attendants at work wash it with one of those 5' truck brushes. You could see the long lines of scratches the length of the panels put there by the brush. He asked me if I could fix it and I said yes I can, but I refuse to for the very simple reason that I explained to him what he needed to do to keep it looking nice, and he could not follow instructions. Besides, it takes a lot out of the surface coat to keep having to go back and do these type of paint corrections.</HTML>
The problems of yesterday have produced the blessings of today.
Lot-A-Details, In Seattle
What you speak of is cob-webbing, if this is a daily driver it will be difficult to keep the finish from this affect. Normal wear and tear of everyday driving will cause this, and can become still worse with poor washing habits. Exactly what techniques and tools are you using when you wash? It may not be the way you wash or what you use, but I think it is worth taking a look at.
Clean mitts, sponges, chamois, towels, which ever you are using they have to be clean, lots of water, and just the right amount of car shampoo I have found always works just fine.
There are lots of different ways that swirl marks are introduced to the surface coat. Any of the tools that are mentioned on this board when working with painted surfaces, can put swirls or scratches in the paint. As I have mentioned before, scratches and swirl marks are not the same thing, though if you look at a swirl mark under a magnifying glass it looks like a bunch of micro-fine scratches or the road into town.
The cob-webbing can be eliminated, but they will return, it is inevitable, especially if it is a daily driver. I did a black mercedes a while back for this guy, lots of swirls. It took me the better part of a day to do this car, and when I was finished it looked fantastic. A week later he let one of his lot attendants at work wash it with one of those 5' truck brushes. You could see the long lines of scratches the length of the panels put there by the brush. He asked me if I could fix it and I said yes I can, but I refuse to for the very simple reason that I explained to him what he needed to do to keep it looking nice, and he could not follow instructions. Besides, it takes a lot out of the surface coat to keep having to go back and do these type of paint corrections.</HTML>
The problems of yesterday have produced the blessings of today.
Lot-A-Details, In Seattle
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Re: Frustrated With Swirls October 11, 2003 08:42AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 1,838 |
<HTML>I also had a problem in the past with a black finish. As you said earlier, you can only see the swirl in the sun or under flourescent lighting. But just looking at it looked amazing. The problem I had was because of using to harsh of a compund. The swirls were small scratches from the grit in the compound. After a few passes with New Car Glaze and a blue foam pad, puppy looked precious. But still, you can see the small swirl scratches only under the flourescent lighting.</HTML>
Take care,
Brian
Precision Auto & Marine
Learn to detail boats! Visit www.detailtheboat.com
Take care,
Brian
Precision Auto & Marine
Learn to detail boats! Visit www.detailtheboat.com
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Re: Frustrated With Swirls October 12, 2003 05:03PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 55 |
<HTML>Swirls are light scrathes caused by the polishing pad, and often the result of poor polishing technique. I'd guess ...and this is purely speculation. That the guy you took it to simply put more in, and then waxed the car temporarily filling them. The problem is that they were not actually rmeoved and when the filler was washed away, the marks were once again revealed. The way to correct swirls is simply to remove them. The easiest way to do this is to apply a glaze/polish by hand to remove the swirls/scratches, then finish it with a hand applied coat of a good wax, sealant. (Always remember a sealant will not fill or hide inperfections, you have to ensure all these are removed before you seal or as you've discovered, they will show after a few washes depending on the life of the wax.) This is often the final and overloked step which should be done to get that "Bling Bling" shine.</HTML>
"Shhh...Da Doctor is Operatin!"
"Shhh...Da Doctor is Operatin!"
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Re: Frustrated With Swirls October 12, 2003 10:26PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Brian:
Often because a detail uses the wrong compound, too aggressive and/or the wrong pad, too aggressive they create "scratches" not buffing marks or "swirls" in the finish.
If you have created light scratches the swirl remover or polish will not remove them. You must use another, but lighter compound in order to take out the scratches, not swirls.
What you might need to do on the car in question is buff it again with a micro fine compound and a foam polishing pad. Then use your swirl remover.
That is why a detailer must know his compounds; pads; be able to identify the paint finish; the problem and know the right combination to use.
This all assumes you have the right buffing technique too.
Regards
bud abraham</HTML>
buda
Often because a detail uses the wrong compound, too aggressive and/or the wrong pad, too aggressive they create "scratches" not buffing marks or "swirls" in the finish.
If you have created light scratches the swirl remover or polish will not remove them. You must use another, but lighter compound in order to take out the scratches, not swirls.
What you might need to do on the car in question is buff it again with a micro fine compound and a foam polishing pad. Then use your swirl remover.
That is why a detailer must know his compounds; pads; be able to identify the paint finish; the problem and know the right combination to use.
This all assumes you have the right buffing technique too.
Regards
bud abraham</HTML>
buda
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Re: Frustrated With Swirls October 12, 2003 11:54PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 1,838 |
<HTML>
This is the first time this happened. I tried Auto Magic's new XP Compound and a foam pad. It said clear coat safe but did scratch. After, I used the New Car Glaze and 3M Finesse pad. After that it looked great when it's out of the flourescent light. But you can still see the scratches if you look closely in the light.</HTML>
Take care,
Brian
Precision Auto & Marine
Learn to detail boats! Visit www.detailtheboat.com
This is the first time this happened. I tried Auto Magic's new XP Compound and a foam pad. It said clear coat safe but did scratch. After, I used the New Car Glaze and 3M Finesse pad. After that it looked great when it's out of the flourescent light. But you can still see the scratches if you look closely in the light.</HTML>
Take care,
Brian
Precision Auto & Marine
Learn to detail boats! Visit www.detailtheboat.com
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Re: Frustrated With Swirls October 13, 2003 03:06AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 74 |
<HTML>I find that XP Compound is way to agressive for clearcoats. It has a very fast, aggressive initial cut, but it does break down into a polish as you work. However, you must buff long enough for it to do that. Sometimes you have to spray with some Quick Detailer (i.e. Body Shine #49) to prolong the buffing time. Anyway, the whole process is messy and I don't recommend it.
Try the XP Polish with a foam cutting pad. If that doesn't remove the scratches, switch to a poly/wool blended pad. Buff until the scratches are gone, then follow up the New Car Glaze and a soft foam pad (blue or white if using Auto Magic's pads) to remove any buffer swirls and polish the surface. Check your work by wiping with rubbing alcohol to remove the silicones that can hide swirls and scratches and inspect in various lighting. All work must be done with a rotary buffer at 1000 RPM's. Once you have it right, proceed with a wax or rpaint sealant to protect the finish.</HTML>
Try the XP Polish with a foam cutting pad. If that doesn't remove the scratches, switch to a poly/wool blended pad. Buff until the scratches are gone, then follow up the New Car Glaze and a soft foam pad (blue or white if using Auto Magic's pads) to remove any buffer swirls and polish the surface. Check your work by wiping with rubbing alcohol to remove the silicones that can hide swirls and scratches and inspect in various lighting. All work must be done with a rotary buffer at 1000 RPM's. Once you have it right, proceed with a wax or rpaint sealant to protect the finish.</HTML>
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Re: Frustrated With Swirls October 13, 2003 03:23AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 1,838 |
<HTML>Gary:
I haven't tried the XP Polish yet. My supplier says it the same thing as New Car Glaze, just a new line of it. One step ahead of you, I only use the XP Compound for boats now. You should see this stuff shave off oxidation from the old, neglected boats.</HTML>
Take care,
Brian
Precision Auto & Marine
Learn to detail boats! Visit www.detailtheboat.com
I haven't tried the XP Polish yet. My supplier says it the same thing as New Car Glaze, just a new line of it. One step ahead of you, I only use the XP Compound for boats now. You should see this stuff shave off oxidation from the old, neglected boats.</HTML>
Take care,
Brian
Precision Auto & Marine
Learn to detail boats! Visit www.detailtheboat.com
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Re: Frustrated With Swirls October 13, 2003 11:41PM |
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Re: Frustrated With Swirls October 14, 2003 05:55AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 1,838 |
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