Cloudiness after applying compound and wax

I noticed that I had some light marks on my door, so I applied rubbing compound. It did a good job removing them and they are gone. Then I applied a polish, followed by wax. When looking at the vehicle at an angle or with a light on it, you can see what looks like dullness or cloudiness. It looks fne when you look at it straight on. Is there any way to fix this? Is there something I can do to restore the high gloss look? My vehicle is glossy black. Thanks.

The compound hazed the paint .You have to use a finer compound before the polish. Meguiars #105 or Ultimate first and then # 205 or Swirl X. That should do the trick.

No matter, usually, the "brand of product", one thing remains true.

When compounding, you are "abrading the surface" to remove the heavier defects.

This creates minor defects in the surface.

Polishing is then normally required to remove the "minor defects" (IE haze, etc).

The chosen polish must be worked much as the compound, to remove the minor defects.

It does little or no good to "just wipe on the polish" as all it will normally accomplish is to "fill" for a short period of time until it's lubricating oils or components evaporate.

To insure you have removed or correctly removed all the scratches, hazing, etc, clean the worked area with rubbing alcohol and a clean cloth, allow to dry and then inspect.

If not all are removed, repeat the steps to attain a correct finish.

We all talk about the great info shared on this site by the real pros. I have seen this same question asked many many times about black cars on all the forums with the same standard answer offered by Bud and Ron. Here is an example of this same question asked on another forum:
[www.meguiarsonline.com].

This person asks this question: Is there something I can do to restore the high gloss look? My vehicle is glossy black. Thanks. Maybe it is time to look at the cause of this problem, and not focus only on correction as the solution. It is like saying that if you are a heavy smoker that tabacco is not the cause of cancer, but smoking is. If you do not smoke tabacco then you will not get cancer. Surgery cannot restore damge anymore than correction can solve this persons problem.


Originally Posted by Car Potential

1) Are swirl marks inevitable? (mostly I only notice them in direct sunlight after a car has been detailed)
Yes, they are. Eventually, over time, no matter how careful you are, you're going to get them.

Micheal Stoops from meguiars says this, but he is just plain wrong . I can show you many examples of cars that have never had swirl marks. The
reason why is that none have ever had wax applied to them. The use of wax leads to this condition every time, but for some reason the pros cannot put 2 and 2 together on what is the real factor. If that was not the case, this question would not be asked over and over.


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We can see how impressed this person was with the pros advice here. He has never come back once.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 11/24/2011 09:35PM by billd55.

billd55 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Micheal Stoops from meguiars says this, but he is
> just plain wrong . I can show you many examples of
> cars that have never had swirl marks. The
> reason why is that none have ever had wax applied
> to them. The use of wax leads to this condition
> every time, but for some reason the pros cannot
> put 2 and 2 together on what is the real factor.
> If that was not the case, this question would not
> be asked over and over.
>
>
Bill - you're like a broken record with your repetitive rendition of how wax is the root of all evil in car care. Are you a moron or something? You've failed every time with your so called examples of swirled free car videos. Plus not to menton being ousted and banned from several detail forums. I can't believe that someone who considers themself a detailer can't see these elementary details. Stop dwelling on your quest to convince people that wax is bad.

Protecht


Why do you continue to mention that I have been banned from several forums. So what ? Bud and Ron have to.
Why do'nt you mind your own business? I really do care what you have to say . Here is a private email I got from a member on this site.

AT-5!!! - I WANT SOME!!!
From: James4:7
To: billd55
08/28/2011 04:27PM
Hey Bill, Love your videos on YouTube and a fan of using different kinds of sealants. Tried the Gem industries site to purchase some, no way to buy. Called the phone number, Guy directed me to wholesalecarcare.com But then it had all products except AT-5!!! I believe this product can deliver, but why is it so hard to get. So can you help direct me in the right direction. Is there a walk-in store location near San Diego (where I live) or a NO BS, NO RUNAROUND website I can go to? THANK YOU. I highly value your opinion, as your professionalism and wisdom in this subject can be seen in your YouTube videos!!!


I suppose this guy is a moron too. Clearly some people are listening to what I have to say.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2011 02:34PM by billd55.

As Ketch and others have indicated, when you scratch or abrade the paint with compound you have to polish it to bring back the shine. Once you have the shine back and have eliminated the scratches or abrasion you can seal the surface with wax or paint sealant.

That has been the process used for years on any surface that has a shine that is abraded or scratched. Polish out the abrasion and then protect.

For example, polycarbonate headlights that have hazed, dulled, oxidized or yellowed. What you have to do is sand off the affected surface with various grits of sandpaper, then polish and finally protect. Same with paint. By the way, this is the system of correction advocated by 3M the world's leader in paint refinishing products. If they do not know, with their billions of dollars for R&D and their squadrons of scientists, no one would know.

Regards
Bud Abraham

Bud's quote:

That has been the process used for years on any surface that has a shine that is abraded or scratched. Polish out the abrasion and then protect.

Talk about sounding like a broken record. Bud ! Exactly what is the industry using for protection? It cannot be wax.

Does wax offer UV protection? NO
Does wax offer protection again'st salt, bugs, hard water, or tree sap ? NO

It is like taking to a bunch of robots. Just because a process has been used for many years does mean there could not be a better way.
This may shock many of you here, but it is true.Doctors did not wash their hands before surgery before WW1. The AMA did not allow it.

Women were dying at a great rate when they had their babies in hospitals, but when they went to mid-wives it virtually never happened.
They later found out the reason was the these same doctors were doing work on dead bodies prior to doing deliveries. They transfered germs to the women which caused them to die.

My point here is because something is done a certain way does not mean it is right. Quoting what the industry says does not make you a pro IMO, but just a follower.

Whoa, Big Guy!
Bud said sealant or wax.
Do you know why?
Because any reflection, created by a gloss surface, will bounce a good portion of the UV's off the surface.
Wax?
Well, to be honest, some waxes are not going to hold up for more than 30 to 60 days to be sure, however, there are many "waxes" available that are not "waxes" as you lump them together.
An example is the old standby Finish Kare 1000P, with is more polymer content than actual what you term "wax".
That is why so many swear by that product.
A polymer based product, be whatever brand ,has shown to be superior to common parifin and carnuaba wax products, due to the "melt or evaporation" temps required to break it down.
You got your favorite, and that is fine.
Over the years I have found many very good polymer products that I favor.
That said, I am not about to arbitrarly thrown down on someone just because they favor one I may not.
Sort of like the old saying, "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder", other wise obese, ugly women would not get lucky..
Grumpy

Ketch, thanks for the informative and knowledgeable commetary, as usual.

Our friend Bill does have some hangups about wax, but I am sure he does not know that some waxes have amino-functional silicones in the formulation, same silicones used in his famous GEM selalant. And also, that some sealants have wax in them.

So is a wax a sealant if it contains amino-functional silicones?

Is a sealant a wax because it contains wax.

Bill are you certain that the GEM sealant does not contain wax? Many of the better sealants on the market do have wax.

OLD TECHNOLOGY

You say what I said was old technology. Well tell me what you do to remove dulling, heavy scratches, etc in paint today? That is not old technnology, that is basic technology. You know, "if it ain't broke don't fix it."

Bud Abraham

Bud

AT-5 does not contain wax.


You say what I said was old technology. Well tell me what you do to remove dulling, heavy scratches, etc in paint today? That is not old technnology, that is basic technology. You know, "if it ain't broke don't fix it."


As far as heavy scratches there is not much more that can be done than what you suggest, but that does not mean what you suggest will remove them either. As far as dulling goes it can be caused from several things. I use Gem's Pretreatment Plus for certain things. On boats, dulling is caused from salt buildup down here in florida. Compound can be used for it, but the grit tends to wear the gel coat too much IMO. On cars, crap tends to stick to the surface, and that can be seen when you use a claybar. Wax IMO allows certain things to be trapped in the layer that harden and cause dulling. Most people apply far too much, and use a weak soap that does not fully remove the dirt. As a result, the paint surface becomes dull, and so polishing and compounding become needed to restore the shine.

See Bud, it is broken. This technology is used far too much. Granted, in some cases it is needed for removing scratches. Although, it is used
way to often. We do not use Stage 1 paints anymore. Those paints were fine to be buffed often, but thanks to Al Gore we have clear coats which
are not. Forums are teaching new people to use compound and polishing as the answer to fixing flaws, but it can lead to damage that can only be fixed by repainting.

In every case I see, wax or a sealant was used. I see cars that are brand new that need correction, and that is just crazy. Blaming it on soft paint
makes zero sense either. Bud, all you do is make excuses(You know, "if it ain't broke don't fix it."). You refuse to believe that using wax is the problem, and of course what is left to suggest to fix the problem this person has.

What makes me different from everyone else on these forums is I see a solution to this problem. You and others offer lip service on how you want to stay up on new things, but that is not true. If that was the case, you would have called Gem and got a sample, but you would rather discredit
me based on what you think you know.

Ron

Finish Kare 1000P Hi-Temp Paste Wax provides ultra heat-resistant, long-wearing paint protection with a high tech, German-inspired synthetic formula. No other wax stands up to temperatures above 250 degrees like Finish Kare 1000P Hi-Temp Paste Wax! Your vehicle benefits from outstanding protection and a high gloss shine.


Let me clue you in on something. This product does not protect the paint. What the polymer does is allow the wax to last longer, and not melt like a candle. It also allows the wax to withstand more washings, but at some time it will have to be removed. I wonder if correction will be needed ?


I find it hard to understand why people cannot figure this out. You certainly cannot layer this product, and washing it with Dawn will not remove it totally,so what will ? This product is actually worse than wax because it is harder to remove than normal wax because of the polymer.


AT-5 does not contain wax. It does not require removing it for another application. Just any dirt or grime that can be removed with a Dawn wash
and a claybar. The new coat bonds to the old one. The poly sealants you mention are nothing like AT-5 in any way shape or form.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/26/2011 01:15PM by billd55.

hazing is easily avoided if you simply do not use compound
Compounds are obsolete and have been replaced by single polish systems that are waterbased and can do all the work for you and will never leave marks behind in the finish unless your a hopeless detailer

To fix paint, we have three options
decontaminate and purify it with FK1, Iron X, clay blocks and chemical paint cleaners
Machine polish with single polish system and as many pads as you wish to remove all defects and produce a flawless finish (takes time)
Fill in all the damage with products like restructure marine, glare, etc. not perfect but the best we have at the moment. filling is not done with oil with these products

The days of getting out the compound and wool pad and buffing away at a million miles an hour are long gone
lower rpm speeds, single polishes that do not haze the paint or leave marks in the paint and all the new pad materials available make it so easy

The key to success is to slow down your rpms. whatever you start with, slow down bit by bit as time passes. keep pads clean also

I do agree with bill though - waxes are a dinosaur and whether they are synthetic or carnauba, they are junk
Prefer to use natural spray on coating for all surfaces of cars now instead of a wipe on amino functional silicone. I believe that most products that are wipe on use man made silicone whereas other products coming out now are natural silica/quartz and water based

the best way to go in the future is to produce a protective coating of a new never before used material that leaves behind a thick hard membrane that covers the paint from damage, darkening it to protect from UV rays and Oxygen even better
surface tension helps but it's not enough on its own, we still get iron based fallout on cars at some stage.

billd55 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bud's quote:
>
> That has been the process used for years on any
> surface that has a shine that is abraded or
> scratched. Polish out the abrasion and then
> protect.
>
> Talk about sounding like a broken record. Bud !
> Exactly what is the industry using for protection?
> It cannot be wax.
>
> Does wax offer UV protection? NO
> Does wax offer protection again'st salt, bugs,
> hard water, or tree sap ? NO
>
> It is like taking to a bunch of robots. Just
> because a process has been used for many years
> does mean there could not be a better way.
> This may shock many of you here, but it is
> true.Doctors did not wash their hands before
> surgery before WW1. The AMA did not allow it.
>
> Women were dying at a great rate when they had
> their babies in hospitals, but when they went to
> mid-wives it virtually never happened.
> They later found out the reason was the these same
> doctors were doing work on dead bodies prior to
> doing deliveries. They transfered germs to the
> women which caused them to die.
>
> My point here is because something is done a
> certain way does not mean it is right. Quoting
> what the industry says does not make you a pro
> IMO, but just a follower.


There are many cars today including ferraris that leave the factory with holograms and swirls
No new car is as good as it can be. new cars are clean but thats it

I'm all for correcting defects, but only a few times per car to save paint depth and clarity. Thank god for single polish systems that eliminate compounds from being needed anymore.
What we need is a gel based permanent filler with a membrane of glass or some other material

There is nothing wrong with using say Optimum GPS, Glare, Restructure Marine, Permanon etc to maintain a car without ever cutting it back and I think that is the future if OEM paints get any thinner

Svr 73

I agree completely with you. AT-5 is certainly not the only answer.


Today, I had to pass on a boat that needed wet sanding and compounding. There are times where these measures are necessary, but it is time to promote new products that really protect, and not rely on correction to fix the problem.

billd55 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Today, I had to pass on a boat that needed wet
> sanding and compounding. There are times where
> these measures are necessary, but it is time to
> promote new products that really protect, and not
> rely on correction to fix the problem.


This makes zero sense? If it needed wet sanding/compounding, why would you pass on doing the job? There’s more to detailing then just full service Dawn washes & AT-5 treatments? As a professional, I certainly hope you offer more then just these services? If not, feel free to forward me this client's contact info so I can pick up where you left off.

Pro-Techt

Enough with your stupid logic. You no nothing about boat detailing, and it would be a waste of my time to try and it explain it to you.
Please ignore my posts.

Bill

If I may ask a question?

Why would you "pass" on a boat that needed correction?

Is that not what a detailer is in business for, to correct finishes on cars, boats, yachts, airplanes, RV's buses that need correction, polishing and then protection?

Maybe what you have been trying to say all these years is that all you do it protect good finishes, maintaining them so they do not deteriorate?

JIM FARRELL

You recall this man, the inventor of the BUFFPRO? We spoke yesterday and he mentioned you and how you tried to remove scratches from the finish with a pre-cleaner and the AT-5 and after 3 attempts you did not remove the scratches, whereas he was able to remove the scratches and leave a high shine with one pass and the BUFFPRO.

Regards
Bud Abraham

Bud

This boat was a 1999 36' Welcraft that was neglected for at least three years. It was not washed or protected, so the sun fried a mil or two of gel. Wet sanding was needed to remove the dead gel, and then compounding to restore the shine.

It is very labor intensive, and the owner was looking for a polish job to make it look good for selling purposes. Unfortunately,
that was not possible, so I passed.

You keep bringing up Jim Farrel. I never tried to remove scratches, and I spent about twenty minutes with him. For some reason he was under the impression I wanted to buy a Buff Pro.

"after 3 attempts you did not remove the scratches, whereas he was able to remove the scratches and leave a high shine with one pass and the BUFFPRO. "

Really, this was not the case at all. Why do I know this? Because Jim uses a 3 step method using 3 grades of compound followed by a coat of wax, so how did he remove the scratch with one pass?

"Maybe what you have been trying to say all these years is that all you do it protect good finishes, maintaining them so they do not deteriorate?" Wow, You finally figured it out! An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure.

Bill

Thank you for the clarification. You did not say initially that the customer did not want to pay for the proper correction job and was selling the boat. Only that if was a tough job and you passed. We all seemed to be misled by what you said.

Can you repair an oxidized gel coat? How would you do that?


As for Jim Farrell I am only repeating what he told me. That you both did a spot on a surface.

He described the process that you often advocate here:

a. Paint cleaner
b. AT-5

Speaking of the BUFFPRO, you ought to purchase one from him, it would improve your results immensely.

All the best,

Bud Abraham

Question:

Can you repair an oxidized gel coat? How would you do that?

Yes. Although gel coat is only so thick. Wet sanding and compounding can restore shine, but only to a point. If the gel gets to thin, dull
spots will occur. Once this happens, repainting is the only answer.

Bill isn't the color in the gel coat itself?

Bill isn't the color in the gel coat itself?

Where else would it be. I

If that is correct then your comment about the gel coat being only so thick does not make sense. Further you do not paint gel cost.

How do you explain these seeming contradiction?

Bud

It really seems you love to argue with people. Of course gel coat is not painted on, but when it wears down the color and shine go away, At first
it can be a combination of wax, salt, and sun. What normally happens is that gel looks flat with no shine. Many detailers like Jim Farrell use
3 grades of compound to restore shine followed by a coat of wax. This process will work, but it is time consuming.

Although, using wax on a boat is worse than a car. Why? Boats are exposed to the sun and salt 24/7, and using a boat soap that is mild does
not clean the gel enough to remove the dirt and grime that builds up. Eventually, wet sanding is used to remove dead gel that is damaged.
Normally, a 800 grit is used to start followed by 1000. Then heavy grit compound is used with a wool pad to bring back the shine.

This process will work well but it is time consuming and costly.The gel coat is only so thick, and at some point you cannot do this anymore
because there is not enough gel to remove. Since you cannot re gel coat a boat, painting is the only answer to restore the shine.

What I do is different. I try and apply AT-5 to new boats, and have them wash it with Dawn to keep it clean. I come back every six month or a
year to do a polishing that removes any salt or dirt that has stuck to the sealant. Then I follow it up with another coat. I have done this process
to many boats , and what I find is that compounding and wetsanding are not needed.

Bill, did you ever look at Nyalic?