A Philosophy to Live By.....

"Never argue with a moron. He will bring you down to his level, and beat you to death with his experience."

Never argue with an idiot. The people watching might not know the difference.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/26/2011 04:42PM by billd55.

I'm a moron.

But I'm comfortable with my stupidity.

There.... I'm out !!! Feels good.

Hey, you can't argue with me about it either.... never argue with a moron.

This could be the first argument I ever won actually.

Right on , Bud!
I recall when Steve Okum, you and myself were on a panel for a Trade Show/Round Table in Orlando a few years back.
There were aprox 40+ detailers in the audience.
The subject came up of "how many full time, turning a profit" detailers were in business in the US at that time.
Which lead to how many had started up and how many had failed within the first two years, etc.
Don't recall exact numbers,but between us three and the audience we arrived at somewhere close to 100,000 in the US who were in the business, plus the "fly by nights", and the "week-end do the neighbor's cars.
We then looked at the yearly sales of high dollar, exotics, etc in the country over the previous 5 years, etc.
I think when the numbers were out there, it opened some eye's and some minds.
Simply put, a 100,000 detailers, full time ones, seeking to do make a living taking care of detailing for less than 100.000 vehicles, or something along those lines.
It woke up many in the audience to the simple fact that the "daily driver-average" car owner is the target market for a detailer to "purchase a full detail'.
How their expectations are not what enthusist seek of a perfect, anal, paint finish, interior, etc.
The real number of customers are really just happen to have the McDonald's wrappers out, the carpets and seats vac'ed clean, the window's without big streaks, the paint looks shiney and willl stay the way for a couple of months.


Bud

You and Ron know about the expectations of the enthusist that seek a perfect, anal, paint finish, interior, etc. I deal with customers in the "real
world" which are the major portion of the detailing world as Ron says.

(The real number of customers are really just happen to have the McDonald's wrappers out, the carpets and seats vac'ed clean, the window's without big streaks, the paint looks shiney and willl stay the way for a couple of months)


shows how out of touch you guys are on what these people want in a detail. Maybe, you should stop going to trade shows and bother to talk
to these people instead of assuming what you think they want. Since I have done detailing for a actual living, and not pushed products to detailers
I think I have more experience to make a comment here.

"It woke up many in the audience to the simple fact that the "daily driver-average" car owner is the target market for a detailer to "purchase a full detail" Really, if you did not see this until several years ago, well, it shows clearly you guy should not be here giving advice to anyone.


Maybe the reason these people have such low expectations is because that is the quality of service provided to them by the average detailer.
They cannot afford to spent huge sums on there cars that correction detailers charge to maintain a waxed car. They what every other car owner
wants , to protect their paint. Sadly, this is something you and Ron will never figure out.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/26/2011 06:04PM by billd55.

Bill

There is no where near 100,000 detail operations in the USA. Even with fly-by-nights who don't have a phone number.

In the Yellow Pages there are 15,000 detail businesses listed including fixed locations, mobile, in Carwashes, dealerships, bodyshops.

Not sure where you get your numbers?

Bud Abraham

Bud, that was a copy and paste from one of Ketch's posts, if I recall correctly. Perhaps it means the total number of detailers including employees?

But Bills post is unfathomable. I don't know which is a quote and which is new input.

Bill, there is a great resource here in Bud & Ketch, Doug, Gina, and others. You are not using the resource correctly. Its like you're blaming a water-font for not tasting of cola. Just because what they are saying isn't what you want to hear, it doesn't mean they are wrong. Everyone has their own perspective. You have to appreciate that like we appreciate your perspective. However, your perspective seems to be keyhole-vision on AT-5. But you don't seem to be even interested or curious as to why nobody agrees with your perspective. You just keep giving us a keyhole-shaped world and it still makes no sense to us. You don't believe us or what we say so we get as annoyed as you do.

Lichtenburg: With most men, unbelief in one thing springs from blind belief in another.

Its just the way it is.

ha! it finally works again!

Profile

Your Quote


However, your perspective seems to be keyhole-vision on AT-5. But you don't seem to be even interested or curious as to why nobody agrees with your perspective. You just keep giving us a keyhole-shaped world and it still makes no sense to us. You don't believe us or what we say so we get as annoyed as you do.


The reason it does not make sense to you is because you do not see the problem. You concentrate on AT-5, but that is not my point at all or
what I am trying to say here. You all look at swirl marks in this fixed world were you all use the same products more or less, and view swirls as a
consequence of just bad washing with a dirty wash mit, or a harsh soap that scratches the clear coat. Then you rationalize it to be from a soft paint job .


I have been in this business for a long time, and the cars I apply AT-5 to never show these fine scratches or swirls. It appears only on cars that
use wax. The reason I am not curious or interested why you do not agree with any thing I say is because you are wrong. See if you bothered to
take the time to not use wax or a polysealant you would see I am correct. Instead, you argue and refuse to try something different.


Like Eienstein said: insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. It is like asking why should I change from
Mother's wax to Meguiar's. Really, is there any difference? What you are telling me is to agree with you, and we do not care what you say.
Well that is your choice, b ut why should I care what you think either,.


I have been very nice to explain my view point, but I am posting here to inform people who want to hear a different view on protection. This is a free
forum, so if you do not like what I am saying then I would suggest you avoid my posts.

Bill, the video you put up a few months ago showed a car that was full of swirl marks. I use CQuartz and still if the car is not treated properly in the washing stages, it gets marked. CQuartz you must agree is different and it is way more advanced than AT-5 on every level. Its not that I don't like what you are saying, but I believe you are wrong. I also don't believe that your cars are not getting fine marks or swirls - especially with that video on Youtube.

I've been in this business a long time as well but that is not a valid point of argument here.

Boys boys boys, if you would just take the time to read previous posts you would find that we had already established that WWII tanks were so durable because of Zaino wax. This rumor was started by Doug Delmont, and Im spreading it around some more! Although I have not personally used Zaino wax I believe this rumor must be true somehow......While were on the subject of wax, what is your favorite soap to remove wax prior to applying sealant? I have used simple green but noticed that if left on too long it spots the finish. Off the shelf car wash seems to be more geared towards not stripping wax. Can a steam cleaner with a microfiber do an efficient job? Prep Sol? what are your thoughts?

Where do you hear that, Bob? That's ridiculous! They used to coat missiles with Zaino during the cold war to make them more aerodynamic. But they ran into a problem when they discovered the coating was so slick it made the missiles slide off their targets instead of exploding at 800mph. The Communists stole the formula from a secret underground lab when a beautiful Blonde Russian Spy infiltrated the facility and seduced an elderly deaf scientist into giving up the formula. When the Russians tried to coat the entire city of Moscow as a protective layer against Yankee Nuke Missiles, they found that it made their cement go a shade of red, hence the name "Red Square" in the city centre. I think its on wikipedia somewhere... lol.

For stripping wax, I have a few things in my arsenal. If its just something like the lower-end swissvax or zymol, I use an equivalent of simple green. If I want to do a proper de-tox, I use AI's ABC system. Or sometimes, I wash off all the grime, dry, remove the tar as usual but I also mist some tar remover on a MF towel and wipe over the paint surfaces, then I wash again but use a trigger-spray bottle of medium APC with the mitt instead of shampoo. That seems to remove sealants pretty well.

Tanks indeed....

Zaino on missiles?! Although most of your facts are correct, the Russians actually stole the formula for AT-5 as they found out that wax was causing swirl marks on the missiles. How do ya think the military came up with camoflauge? Swirls.........Until of course the 1960's when the Hippie movement brainwashed Jimmy Hoffa into stealing the top secret photos of camoflauge so they could alter it and use it for t-shirts. Then of course since Hoffa knew too much they had to murder em and hide his body, probably in a pet cemetary somewhere. I hear Al Gore is experimenting with using the coating on icebergs to repel u v rays and reverse global warming............

Blonde Russian Spy indeed.........

Its true... that Blonde Russian spy is now back in deep cover as a sleeper spy and running a company called Detail Plus and calling herself online"Bud"....

Just kidding, Bud. We all know that you are actually Jimmy Hoffa.

No, actually I am really Martin Scorsese (google "Martin Scorsese"), posing at Bud Abraham

Regards

MS

Just randomly googled and I found these two...


[www.mrissues.com]

[www.detailingforum.ro]


Mr Scorsese, Sir!! We are in the presence of greatness!!

My real name is Jonny Depp...

Quote from Profile Detailer :

Bill, the video you put up a few months ago showed a car that was full of swirl marks. I use CQuartz and still if the car is not treated properly in the washing stages, it gets marked. CQuartz you must agree is different and it is way more advanced than AT-5 on every level. Its not that I don't like what you are saying, but I believe you are wrong. I also don't believe that your cars are not getting fine marks or swirls - especially with that video on Youtube.. I use CQuartz and still if the car is not treated properly in the washing stages, it gets marked. CQuartz you must agree is different and it is way more advanced than AT-5 on every level. Its not that I don't like what you are saying, but I believe you are wrong. I also don't believe that your cars are not getting fine marks or swirls - especially with that video on Youtube.


My comments

Bill, the video you put up a few months ago showed a car that was full of swirl marks.

First, there was one video that you state were full of swirl marks. Those were not swirl marks ! They were scratches in the
clear coat itself.


I use CQuartz and still if the car is not treated properly in the washing stages, it gets marked. CQuartz you must agree is different and it is way more advanced than AT-5 on every level. Its not that I don't like what you are saying, but I believe you are wrong.


Second, I do not get marks from not properly washing when using AT-5. I washed the Jeep and Tahoe with Dawn. There
was no swirls I could see on either of those vehicles in the videos. By the way, it had been one year since the last application, so I do not agree that CQuartz is more advanced than AT-5 on every level.


It's not that I don't like what you are saying, but I believe you are wrong. I also don't believe that your cars are not getting fine marks or swirls - especially with that video on Youtube


Third, Well that is your choice. I try to do new cars , or ones that have few flaws. The videos of the Jeep and Tahoe I posted
were new when AT-5 was applied. They were both 07 vehicles, and there were no fine scratches or swirls on them.

billd55 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> First, there was one video that you state were
> full of swirl marks. Those were not swirl marks !
> They were scratches in the
> clear coat itself.


Do you even know what a swirl mark is? It IS a scratch. Duh??


billd55 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> Second, I do not get marks from not properly
> washing when using AT-5. >
>
>
Oh really? You really think that AT-5 is that good that it can eliminate marks (swirls/scratches) even when using poor washing methods? Very highly impossible. You either have no clue or you need to get your eyes checked. Swirls can and do happen (at a microscopic level) even when using proper wash techniques.

Quote from Pro-Techt

Do you even know what a swirl mark is? It IS a scratch. Duh??


Really. Here is a definition for a swirl mark:We can get into a lot of semantics here, but from a professional standpoint, the technical definition of a swirl mark is the micro-scratches caused by simple rotary polishing. Source:[www.vehiclespa.com]

According to this source the cause of the scratch is from rotary polishing only. Although, I can show you many examples of people who have not used a rotary polisher to apply a wax/sealant who get swirl marks just using a cloth application pad.
PLEASE, do say they cause scratches on a new clear coat.

So yes I do know what a swirl mark is, but I also know what a scratch is also. When a car is hand waxed new, and washed
a number of times it wears the wax layer down and produces the fine scratches that many assume are in the clear itself,
but are not.

Pro-Techt I have wasted enough of my time responding to you . I will just leave it like Bud does with:A Philosophy to Live By

Never argue with an idiot. The people watching might not know the difference.

Here is a perfect example:

immaculate paint job, ..turns out, not so much
well turns out i have found a flaw in my 11 black silervado

i washed my truck the other day, and we have a party to goto today
so i took out the u/d to touch up the truck
and the sun was just right and a saw a bunch of water spot looking things on the hood

i cant get them to come out on camera, ill try again later or tomorrow

at 1st i thought they were just water spots, but they didnt come off
so i took a little u/p on a small spot, that didnt do anything
then i took scratch x on a small spot 3 times, that did nothing

im afraid they are under the c/c
has anyone seen this b4 , or have any idea how to get rid of them if they are under the c/c?

im thinking getting some u/c and a r/a buffer




Now this person did not use a rotary polisher here(m thinking getting some u/c and a r/a buffer) on his 2011 truck,
so were did the bunch of water spot looking things on the hood come from . ARE THESE SWIRL MARKS OR
SCRATCHES. Are they in the clear coat? Who knows, but a polish and compound would not remove them.

This could be that whatever product that was used wax or sealant hardened ,and trapped something in the layer that
that produced this flaw. It may not be in the clear itself, but polishing maybe the only way remove the flaw. No one came
say either way IMO.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2011 05:18PM by billd55.

Pro-Techt quote:
Oh really? You really think that AT-5 is that good that it can eliminate marks (swirls/scratches) even when using poor washing methods? Very highly impossiblee


Yes I do. How many times do I have to show it here. Look at the videos of the Jeep and Tahoe. After one year since the last application where are the swirls/scratches ? It is only impossible to you because of your big ego . What I am saying is that
it will prevent them , not eliminate them. Nothing can prevent scratches totally.

billd55 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Yes I do. How many times do I have to show it
> here. Look at the videos of the Jeep and Tahoe.
> After one year since the last application where
> are the swirls/scratches ?

The quality of your videos are very poor. Your ability to document the true condition of the paint is poor. You only capture shaded footage and completely avoid full sunlight. You take video of glass, convertible vinyl tops and shaded close ups and claim the paint is perfect? On dark colored cars, when you’ve caught the condition at the right angle it shows swirls. Light colored cars usually don’t film well especially with your abilities. Even in your Jeep video you claim “The light’s not the best” at the 2:20 minute mark.

These videos prove nothing other then your inability to provide real results with your video camera. It’s actually pathetic to sit and watch.

[www.youtube.com]

[www.youtube.com]

08 Lexus loaded with swirls @ the 2:10 mark: [www.youtube.com]

Black Sonata: AT-5’d and loaded with swirls before and after you “detail” it: [www.youtube.com]

Blue Mercedes: [www.youtube.com]
Loaded with swirls and marring. And this car has scratch resistant clear!!

Green Expedition: [www.youtube.com]
Filled with swirls.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2011 07:57PM by Pro-Techt.

Look Pro-Techt

This is it with you. Clearly, something is wrong with you, and nothing I say will end your crap. You see what you want to see, and blame the camera I use as inferior when you cannot see what you want. The end of the Jeep video was in direct sunlight, and so was the Tahoe. There was not one swirl on those vehicles.

1. Black Sonata: AT-5’d and loaded with swirls before and after you “detail” First, they were there when I did the car the first time, so what is your point? The finish was crap when I did it, and AT-5 will not change that.

2 . Blue Mercedes: Loaded with swirls and marring. And this car has had scratch resistant clear!! You are crazy
there is no such thing as: scratch resistant clear! The swirls and marring are scratches in the clear coat it self.

3.. Green Expedition: Filled with swirls. The last application of AT-5 on this vehicle was over a year, and it was washed
with dawn using well water. I did this to make a point which you are toooooo stupid to figure out. Is this finish up to your
standards. Of course not, but it looks nothing like this example :
[www.detailingworld.co.uk]
Both these vehicles are close in age, but I can say the expedition looks much better than this BMW does by a twenty
miles. Notice that the BMW had only 42K for miles. This expedition has never been waxed, and does not need 49 hours of correction either.

I would love to see you post a video of your favorite sealant tested under these conditions , and then we can see what a swirled up mess really is. So far all I have heard from you is your big mouth quoting what others tell you, and your humble opinion.

You are just a nut job, and must post something negative to everything I say even if it makes no sense. Say what ever you want to say, but this it . I need to turn you off, and stop wasting my time.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2011 08:49PM by billd55.

Or they are etching and have "eaten into the clear coat."

Or, at the least they are "mineralized water spots" that have to be taken off with a chemical water spot remover.

Bud Abraham

billd55 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> You are crazy
> there is no such thing as: scratch resistant
> clear! The swirls and marring are scratches in the
> clear coat it self.
>
>

Your ignorance and inexperience is surfacing once again (insert foot in mouth):

Here's one article about Scratch Resistent Clear used on Mercedes:
[www.ppg.com]

And another from this article:
[www.ppg.com]
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Does it say scratch proof. If I take a key down the side of the car will it not scratch the clear. Sure, it may stop some scratches,
but not all of them . Really, get some common sense .

billd55 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does it say scratch proof.

I never said "scratch proof". I said "scratch resistent" and YOU said there was "no such thing as scratch resistent clear". I then posted undeniable proof that there is and then you obviously backpeddled because you're wrong. It's actually a pattern for you.

It's ok Bill, I totally understand what you're experiencing. You might want to bump up your professional detailing prices a bit so you can afford medication your condition:





Schizophrenia ( /?sk?ts??fr?ni?/ or /?sk?ts??fri?ni?/) is a mental disorder characterized by a disintegration of thought processes and of emotional responsiveness. It most commonly manifests itself as auditory hallucinations, paranoid or bizarre delusions, or disorganized speech and thinking, and it is accompanied by significant social or occupational dysfunction.

Symptoms: A person diagnosed with schizophrenia may experience hallucinations, delusions, and disorganized thinking and speech. The latter may range from loss of train of thought, to sentences only loosely connected in meaning, to incoherence known as word salad in severe cases. Social withdrawal, sloppiness of dress and hygiene, and loss of motivation and judgment are all common in schizophrenia.There is often an observable pattern of emotional difficulty, for example lack of responsiveness. Impairment in social cognition is associated with schizophrenia, as are symptoms of paranoia; social isolation commonly occurs. In one uncommon subtype, the person may be largely mute, remain motionless in bizarre postures, or exhibit purposeless agitation, all signs of catatonia.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2011 02:03PM by Pro-Techt.