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dwgcmc
Nth Degree Auto Detailing


Posts: 224
Join Date: Apr 2009

85rd failed. Any idea why? - 08-12-2011, 01:09 AM
Had a very frustrating incident today. Polishing a '93 Black Corvette ZR-1 with only 8K miles on it. Typical swirling. After about 10 hours washing, claying, compounding I was ready to move on to 85rd. It was a 1 hour commute so I wanted to finish in one day. I came prepared for a 16 hour day.

Problem was the 85rd was being difficult to remove. I was creating marring with just removal. Using heavy dose of IPA didn't help. The paint was on the hard side and took quite a while to correct. (105 & D300 on yellow LC pad, PC) At first I thought it was just streaking, but it was actually marring. Obvious thought was towel. I had a bundle of brand new towels, same problem. Tried po203 and had no marring, but was a little more difficult than normal to remove. D301 didn't give a problem, but didn't cut enough. Tried following the po203 with 85rd on black pad, same problem.

Needless to say, I didn't finish and will be finishing in a few days. I simply chose not to push to finish because I had lost too much time and didn't want to keep the customer up past midnight waiting for me to leave. I will experiment on my own car to see if the problem is replicated and, if so, try to narrow down the problem.

The question: Is it possible the 85rd has gone bad? I haven't used it in a few weeks. (haven't done much detailing as the temps have been around 100 for 2+ weeks.) Is it possible the heat has affected it. Could it be an environmental thing? (Temp was about 85-90, moderate humidity.)

I'm not a newb and this is the first time I have ever had a problem I couldn't figure out. Just want to know if I'm missing something or if anyone else has experienced similar problem with a product.



My comments:

You sure are, but just cannot see it. 16 hours to detail a vette with 8,000 miles on it. This car is a 93 that only gets driven
444 miles a YEAR, and I would bet it is under ideal conditions.

"Had a very frustrating incident today. Polishing a '93 Black Corvette ZR-1 with only 8K miles on it. Typical swirling. After about 10 hours washing, claying, compounding I was ready to move on to 85rd."

This car has swirl issues, how can that be? This car has to be in the garage most of the time,and it takes 10 hours washing, claying, compounding. My God it is a vette.


"Problem was the 85rd was being difficult to remove. I was creating marring with just removal. Using heavy dose of IPA didn't help. The paint was on the hard side and took quite a while to correct. (105 & D300 on yellow LC pad, PC) At first I thought it was just streaking, but it was actually marring. Obvious thought was towel. I had a bundle of brand new towels, same problem. Tried po203 and had no marring, but was a little more difficult than normal to remove. D301 didn't give a problem, but didn't cut enough. Tried following the po203 with 85rd on black pad, same problem"

Please read this paragraph closely. How could brand new towels cause marring, but all the crap he is applying could not?

International D300 Polish, Wax & Cleaners
Meguiar's D301 finishing wax
Menzerna Power Finish PO 203
Menzerna Power Finish PO 203 all-in-one swirl remover and polish!
Menzerna Finish Polish PO85RD

CAN ANYONE HERE SEE THE PROBLEM? Probably not. This guy is suppose to be a professional, and he cannot figure
this out. Let me explain his problem. He has compounded the crap out of this customer's vette to remove the swirling problem, and now he is burning coats of wax and polish into the finish and he wonders why it's hard to remove? Is this
the LOGIC Ron is referring to in this statement:

Exactly, it is just "logic", which seems to be missing from some who take part in this forum.
"Logic", I don't need no stinking logic, I know that XXX is all that is needed to do everything!"
"Don't confuse me with experience or documented facts, proven by thousands of people, who make a full time living of doing what they have done for decades, I know it all!"

Is this the one of thousands making a full time living that are doing the same thing. That is a scary thought.
Here is Todd H's response to the question:

I have found the paint on the C4 Corvette's (Including a C4 ZR-1 that Brian_Brice, Angelo, and myself detailed) to be a little finicky. When we talk about paint systems we have to remember that they vary DRAMATICALLY in not only chemical makeup but also what has been done to it through out its life. (IE what chemicals it has been subjected to, silicons, waxes, and so on).

Every once in a while you will run into a paint where a particular product just doesn't work well, and every once in a while you will run into a paint where a particular product just rocks. If you read forum reviews you will usually find opinions from various people that are often contradictory, and a lot of times this can be attributed to how something interacts with a particular paint. On my wife's Sonata everything lasts a long time, even if I leave it in the sun for months. However on my old car, certain LSPs would fail under a month, even those that are renowned for excellent longevity.

You could also get a little cheimcal interference from the previously applied product, in your case D300. D300 has silicone in it and Menzerna has a reputation of having a love/hate relationship with certain silicons. Michael Stoops from Meguiar's authored an article where they had a hard time getting D300 to cut after wiping the car with Last Touch Detail Spray (if my memory serves me correctly).

I would wash the ZR-1 or wipe it down with a paint prep product to ensure the paint is squeaky clean and limit the possibility of any chemical interference.

Needless to say, I didn't finish and will be finishing in a few days. I simply chose not to push to finish because I had lost too much time and didn't want to keep the customer up past midnight waiting for me to leave. I will experiment on my own car to see if the problem is replicated and, if so, try to narrow down the problem.

Then try PO85rd with a clean pad and see if this happens. On the particular Corvette ZR-1 that Brian, Angelo, and I polished, 85rd just didn't play well. I ended up switching to PO106fa (it may have been 106ff to be honest) and it solved all issues, the polish worked like a champ, and that was that.

Sometimes the best we can do is set all variables to our side (clean the paint of oils, use a fresh pad, experiment with different techniques) and even then certain products just won't play well on particular paint systems.

My Comments:

Todd H the master guru of correction cannot figure out that is not the paint, towels, temp, humidity, or that it requires 4 guys
to detail a vette. It is just that when you intermix products they do not work together, or play nice as Todd puts it. These
products can be forced into the paint, and can be extremely hard to remove.

Michael Stoops from Meguiar's authored an article where they had a hard time getting D300 to cut after wiping the car with Last Touch Detail Spray (if my memory serves me correctly).

Once you damage the clear coat it is all over. More polishing and wax will be fruitless. If people would stop using wax
and poly sealants this would not happen. Is all this hassle and cost worth a short term fix of flaw less shine.