How does wax bond to paint?

I feel like a little boy asking his daddy why the sky is blue, but if I understood how wax or sealant bonds to the car’s paint I might be able to make more sense out of such frequent Autopia topics as layering, polymer crosslinking, or the infamous Dawn wash. This would help me determine if some of my detailing steps make sense, or if sometimes I am just being silly.

Having asked the question, I will take a stab at an answer and ask for comments if you agree or disagree. I am of the impression that paint is pretty hard stuff, so no matter how much you polish it, including burnishing it to a satiny finish with FP, the surface still has microscopic hills, valleys, pores and fissures, maybe even crags, caves and arroyos, all invisible to the naked eye. This would look like rough terrain indeed to a wax molecule. The paste wax or liquid sealant fills in these surface gaps. Thus, when it dries/cures/hardens the wax layer is locked into the paint with a mechanical bond. This also seems to make sense optically. With the gaps filled in, the sun’s rays are presented with a smoother surface which means more uniform reflection with less scatter and, I would suppose, a better shine.

This sounds reasonable to me, but if true, it raises some trickier questions:

1. If the gaps are filled with wax, what does the second layer of wax bond to, and how does it do it? Maybe the gaps didn’t get totally filled, and the second coat just fills in some more. Or maybe there is some kind of a chemical bond formed between the fresh wax and the cured wax below, but that seems unlikely. On the other hand, new wax must be able to stick to old wax somehow. Otherwise, how could you get a wax buildup? Is it possible that heat generated from applying the second coat softens the base layer enough so that they can somehow chemically merge?

2. I presume that SMR’s or shine enhancing polishes not only fill in the swirls and fine scratches with oils, but also the microscopic gaps, thus enhancing the shine. But with the gaps already filled, how can the wax or sealant bond to the paint? Maybe the answer, at least for carnauba, is that it does not have to bond all that well to the paint or wax layer below because environmental assaults, evaporation and washing will wear it down before bonding becomes an issue. Maybe. The situation may be different for long-term sealants. Sal Zaino wants you to get rid of all those waxes and oils, and Klasse does the job for you with AIO. So maybe these guys last long enough that adequate bonding becomes important. But then…

3. How does Poorboy’s EX do it? The label says it will last six to nine months, and we are not required to prepare the paint with prepsol or a Dawn wash. Not everybody reports that kind of durability for EX, but I do. After six months over Meguiar’s #9 Swirl Remover on a horizontal hood panel, the EX is still going strong.

4. Does crosslinking in polymer-based sealants contribute to bonding to the paint or sealant layer below? I would guess not. From a cursory web search, Zaino and Platinum UPP admit to being polymer-based with crosslinking, but EX and 1Z Glanz Wax don’t mention it, and Klasse claims not to be a polymer product. Neither Zaino nor UPP actually say that the sealant is bonded to the paint or previous sealant coat by crosslinking. Rather, the polymers in the fresh layer crosslink with each other as part of the curing process.

5. The last and ultimate question, which all of this has been leading up to: What does the 43rd layer of Z2 bond to, and how in the world does it do it?



The answer is: Nothing, because the other 42 layers bonded to nothing. Nothing from nothing leaves nothing. That is what wax has to offer as far as protection goes.




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Quoting Bill-
5. The last and ultimate question, which all of this has been leading up to: What does the 43rd layer of Z2 bond to, and how in the world does it do it?
The answer is: Nothing, because the other 42 layers bonded to nothing. Nothing from nothing leaves nothing. That is what wax has to offer as far as protection goes.

Answer :
Zaino is not a " wax " . It is a sealant, labeled " Polish " . I've used it in multiple coats and it does build up in layers of ...get ready...protection . Try it for yourself and you'll see that subsequent coats stick and last .

Meguiar's recommends 3 or 4 several coats of #26 Yellow Wax in bug-prone areas of the car, to keep bugs from sticking as hard to the paint. I've tried it and it works.

Bill, most of your statements on this forum are incorrect and most others on here concur with me. You should be especially careful about knocking a product unjustly simply to promote your favorite sealant .

Doug

Quote from Doug:

Bill, most of your statements on this forum are incorrect and most others on here concur with me. You should be especially careful about knocking a product unjustly simply to promote your favorite sealant


Clearly this is just your opinion.The others that disagree with me do it with zero real proof. I am not here to promote
a product, but an idea. If someone wants to use Opti-Coat over AT-5 that is fine with me. It is not how durable a sealant
is, it is how well it protects which is far more important IMO.


Quote:

Zaino is not a " wax " . It is a sealant, labeled " Polish "


Doug, how can a sealant be a polish? Think about it? They do two different things.



Quote:

I've used it in multiple coats and it does build up in layers of ...get ready...protection . Try it for yourself and you'll see that subsequent coats stick and last .

Meguiar's recommends 3 or 4 several coats of #26 Yellow Wax in bug-prone areas of the car, to keep bugs from sticking as hard to the paint. I've tried it and it works.


You are right they do stick, but do not last. Wax does not bond to paint, and sticking to something is not bonding IMO.
That means the 2-4 coats are bonded to what? WAX? I could put 4 coats of grease on the paint and get about the same results as you suggest. Grease sticks to the paint, and will last, and offer maybe better protection again'st bugs.

At some time all that wax you applied will have to come off, and correction will be needed to cover the swirls marks you will have plus any damage your wax coats did protect again'st.

How do you know that polymers do not bond to themselves? Where is the evidence?

Quote from Profile Detailer

How do you know that polymers do not bond to themselves? Where is the evidence?

When did I say that polymers could not bond to themselves?What I did say is how can wax bond to a poly sealant, or the
other coats of wax either on top of that one?

I knew I shouldn't have posted here. I swore I wouldn't enter another discussion.....

Look above again, Bill. You seem to have selective memory. Or is it that you don't know what you are talking about when you keep making statements....


"5. The last and ultimate question, which all of this has been leading up to: What does the 43rd layer of Z2 bond to, and how in the world does it do it?

The answer is: Nothing, because the other 42 layers bonded to nothing. Nothing from nothing leaves nothing. That is what wax has to offer as far as protection goes. "

Quote from profile Detailer:

Look above again, Bill. You seem to have selective memory. Or is it that you don't know what you are talking about when you keep making statements....


Look Profile Detailer, this statement makes little sense:How do you know that polymers do not bond to themselves? Where is the evidence?

First, this is a very vague question. What exact polymers are you talking about? Many sealants have polymers added to them,including waxes. AT-5 could be could be considered a polymer sealant using your logic of sealants. AT-5 will bond to clear coat paint and to itself. WHY? Simple. Most clear coat paint finishes are Acrylic Polyurethanes, and since AT-5 is a true acrylic formulation which was designed to bond to this paint and to it self, so my answer to your question makes perfect sense .

Natural polymeric materials such as shellac, amber, and natural rubber have been used for centuries. A variety of other natural polymers exist, such as cellulose, which is the main constituent of wood and paper. The list of synthetic polymers includes synthetic rubber, Bakelite, neoprene, nylon, PVC, polystyrene, polyethylene, polypropylene, polyacrylonitrile, PVB, silicone, and many more.

Considering this, your question is just toooo vague to answer . Some may , but some may not.

Quote:
Or is it that you don't know what you are talking about when you keep making statements....


Maybe your are the one of many not knowing what they are talking about. Check out this post :

[www.autopia.org]


Notice the question asked:


I have always heard here that synthetics will not bond to waxes. I am not saying this is untrue so don't blast me. Are there anyone with facts that this is true. Regards

Let's look at some of the answers.


nope, but from what i've read on these forums, optimum optiseal can be applied over a wax, and it will go through the wax to bond to the paint itself...

Please explain to me how this makes any sense at all


Another answer:
MDRX8- I've had UPP fail to bond to wax; it pretty much just smeared around and made a mess even after it had flashed off.


Response:
Out of curiosity, why do you want to top a carnauba with it (or any other sealant)?


Good question!



Here is the best answer by fair:

In a nutshell No ! typically , paint is stripped of all toppings and is clay bared and then paint sealant is applied.There are sum sealants that recommend curing or bonding to the clear coat over night before applying a wax.It is possible to end up with a mess by applying sealant over wax....streaking......smears. Now , there are companies out there that claim all of their products are compatible with each other.....it depends on composition.There are amazing products out there and new stuff is always coming down the detailers pipe.....lots of times ,its good to stay within that product format , as they are designed to work together.

Profile, maybe you should ask Bud and Ron to answer this person's question considering all their years of experience, and not me because I do not have a clue in your opinion. Maybe you should do your own research before asking questions
like this from me. Clearly, it shows how uninformed you are on this subject, or if you really care in the first place.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2012 03:56PM by billd55.

What have I said that shows how uninformed I am?

All I did was ask you to explain one of YOUR OWN statements. Then you accuse me of being vague and uninformed.

Please elaborate.

Quote:


All I did was ask you to explain one of YOUR OWN statements. Then you accuse me of being vague and uninformed.

Please elaborate.


I believe I did that on the first answer, but my second response should make it clear. Your question was vague. This was
your quote:

Look above again, Bill. You seem to have selective memory. Or is it that you don't know what you are talking about when you keep making statements..

You seem to infer I have selective memory, or I do not know what I am talking about after my first answer, Clearly,
I do know what I am talking about, and you do not. If you did, you would not have asked the question more than once.

I'm posting this once more because Bill seems to have misunderstood :


Zaino is not a " wax " . It is a sealant, labeled " Polish " . I've used it in multiple coats and it does build up in layers of ...get ready...protection . Try it for yourself and you'll see that subsequent coats stick and last .

Meguiar's recommends 3 or 4 several coats of #26 Yellow Wax in bug-prone areas of the car, to keep bugs from sticking as hard to the paint. I've tried it and it works.

In one simple word--catilization of the molecular structurers, is how any bonding of this subject matter takes place.
Clean surface, correct polymer chain, without obstruction of another "oil/fluid", or other disrupturing elementes. to interupt the cross-linking of the polymer chain.
Wax has a substructering "chain", as do any polymer, disrupt this "curing process" through the introduction of any substance which may not allow this to be completed, a bond will not be completed.
Those which may distrubster of the curing process may depend on the polymer chain one is working with, be it air, water, hydrocarbon solvents, heat, etc.
Grumpy

My Quote:
The answer is: Nothing, because the other 42 layers bonded to nothing. Nothing from nothing leaves nothing. That is what wax has to offer as far as protection goes.

Quote from Profile Detailer:

What have I said that shows how uninformed I am?

All I did was ask you to explain one of YOUR OWN statements. Then you accuse me of being vague and uninformed.

Please elaborate.

Quote from Mike Phillips from Auto Geek

The law of diminishing returns as it relates to layering,

A surface, such as an automotive paint, can only hold so much product before all you're doing is removing all subsequent coatings applied to the surface.


That is to say, after the first, second and in some cases a third application/coating, any more product applied to the surface is merely removed when you wipe the excess off after waiting for the product to cure.

At this point you've reached a plateau (or limit), as to how much wax (natural or synthetic) a surface can hold. Once you reach this plateau, all further applications of wax simply become excess that will be removed (and thus wasted), during wipe-off because it has nowhere to attach and layer.

Quote from Profile Detailer:

How do you know that polymers do not bond to themselves? Where is the evidence?

From Mike Phillips :

Meguiar's waxes can be layered, but two things must be tended to when layering waxes. 1) You must use the right waxes ("Layerable" waxes),

My response:
If Zaino is not a wax according to Doug, then applying a wax coat over it may be fruitless since these two products may not work together.

Strong resin and low solvent value will mean that the product can be layered once dry. There are numerous products out there that can achieve this however there is obviously not much point.

A wax will adhere to a cured polymer as easily as it will adhere to bare paint. Waxes do not layer. Any additional coats will merely form a thicker layer. Sealants will form individual layers, but it doesn't matter a damn. If something is going to remove one layer, it will remove all of it. Like painting a wall several times over the years. You won't strip back one layer of paint to start afresh - all of it will come away (because it needs to).

People do apply waxes over sealants because it alters the appearance of the finish.

Spot on, Profile !

Quote from Profile Detailer:

Strong resin and low solvent value will mean that the product can be layered once dry. There are numerous products out there that can achieve this however there is obviously not much point.

A wax will adhere to a cured polymer as easily as it will adhere to bare paint. Waxes do not layer. Any additional coats will merely form a thicker layer. Sealants will form individual layers, but it doesn't matter a damn. If something is going to remove one layer, it will remove all of it. Like painting a wall several times over the years. You won't strip back one layer of paint to start afresh - all of it will come away (because it needs to).


People do apply waxes over sealants because it alters the appearance of the finish.

My response:

After reading this statement I really have to scratch my head in disbelief. First, Profile Detailer has clearly never painted
anything in his life from this quote:

Like painting a wall several times over the years. You won't strip back one layer of paint to start afresh - all of it will come away (because it needs to).

When you paint a stucco wall you do not remove all the paint because you need to. You remove any paint layers that have come loose by pressure washing the surface, and to clean the surface.. Once again people make silly statements like this , and guys like Doug make statements like this to gain approval from the club: Spot on, Profile ! .

Yes, people do apply waxes over sealants because it alters the appearance of the finish. Although, does any one consider why?Clearly not here.

Since Profile Detailer continues to be a phantom here I really do not have any idea what he really does in the detailing field. What he says in this statement appears to support nothing really , but to explain the obvious. All he seems to imply here that waxes will adhere, layering to a point offers no real benefits, people use them to alter the appearance of the finish, and they totally need to be removed before applying more.

He mentions using Glare and Restructure Marine , but also uses waxes and conventional sealants. Certainly by now you would think he has figured out that that using conventional waxes / sealants will require removing them at some time. Also,
I am sure he is aware that these products offer very limited protection.

My question here is this. If people layer wax over poly sealants for appearance reasons mainly. Why not just use Glare or
Restructure Marine only? According to him they offer better shine, and better protection. Now since I have not used these products I cannot tell you what is required to reapply these products, but Glare says they last 5 years.

You will not have to apply many layers for protection, and shine with Glare and Marine Structure which will not have to be removed latter. Also,you will not have to use beading as a measure to determine whether the paint is protected.

Bill, first about the paint analogy..... whatever.... you know the point I was trying to make so you just come across as rude when you disect like that. I have painted many, many things in my life. I just don't let my house get so shabby as to have paint flaking off the walls. But regarding me and what I do, DO NOT MAKE ASSUMPTIONS.

Second, why do you feel the need to constantly criticise and bully me? I mean you obviously did a search on my previous posts and incorrectly concluded what products I use. You are incorrect about who I am, where I am, what products I use and what my relationship is to you. DO NOT MAKE ASSUMPTIONS.

Thirdly, if I might have in the past I certainly will not now tell you who I am what company I own. You will probably go to my website and start copying and pasting my services, choice of products, my processes and my prices and criticise what I do for a living. All you do is criticise because you have this belief that you have the silver bullet to the worlds problems. There is no silver bullet in car care and my advice is DO NOT MAKE ASSUMPTIONS.

Bill, regardless of what you know or don't know, you have a toxic presence on this forum. Once again, I just posted up a snippet of objective information and you cut it up, tried to cut me up and responded with another overall rude retort.

You might remember that I said this before, but I am not posting in this forum again until the atmosphere improves. Freedom of speech and all that, but direct or indirect animadversions are something I will not tolerate so I will not be posting here unless the administration takes a firm stance on this elephant in the room.

If you think that I am not going to recommend that you get banned from this forum.... DO NOT MAKE ASSUMPTIONS.

Goodbye Bill.

Quote:
Bill, first about the paint analogy..... whatever.... you know the point DO NOT MAKE ASSUMPTIONS.

You made the statement not me, and sorry I do not know what your point is, By the way, you and certain people here make
ASSUMPTIONS all the time about things I say.

Quote:
why do you feel the need to constantly criticise and bully me? I mean you obviously did a search on my previous posts and incorrectly concluded what products I use. You are incorrect about who I am, where I am, what products I use and what my relationship is to you. DO NOT MAKE ASSUMPTIONS.

I believe the search feature is for just that, and anyone here is more than welcome to search my past posts. First, no one has a clue what you are, or where you are. You are just a person here responding to my posts with your opinions, and as Ron said to Dougo, "who are you, and how long have you been in the industry, and where are you", is a fair question, for one that offers so much "advice".

GOODBYE PROFILE DETAILER who ever you are

Bill, please describe the term "bond or bonding",it is fine and needed that you go in depth as to what is it requires to create a "bond" or "bonding".
Then, please explain to all, using documented references, how this "bond" or "bonding" may be broken and is regards to what chemical compound you are referring to in your example.
In short terms, what breaks a bond once it is attained.
It is not an unfair request, after all, you are the one who challenges all other's who respond on the subject.
Which of course would indicate that you have the documented and education to do so.
Grumpy

Ron

Your question is very general in nature. First, what sealants are you asking about in specific terms to bonding?
If it is AT-5 you are talking about then since you tested the product back in 1996 you should already know the answer.

As far as waxes and poly sealants go the answer to your question about bonding is not the word I would use. If a dish
soap breaks down these products down I would also conclude it would also break any bonds to the paint also.

Just use the normal basic's that are available regarding automotive produced waxes and automotive produced sealants.
After all, they are all made from outsourced chemical compounds, which are also used to produce other products.
Is that simple enough?

Ron

You are not looking for a answer , but just a way to show how much smarter you are than me. I respect your experience,
but what is your point if you have one,

The "point" is very simple.
You challenge bonding, you challenge anything which does not meet your interpertation of your favorrite, almost to the point of a potential unsavory love affair with a product.
You rave on about "bonding", long lasting, etc , etc and when challenged over the past few month, you keep pounding on how it "bonds so well with it's superior chemical components" that is lasts longer than any other product of such on the planet.
So, how does it bond so much more than any other product produced and marketed, what makes it do so.
Which starts with "bonding", to keep it simple.
Let's start at some sort of starting point, and you continue to challenge waxes and any other sealant, stating time after time that your favorite-in your opinion (only your opinion) nothing else can do what it does.
So- we been through the documented test results, which are good, and much the same as other products results, yet you continue to preach that your favorite is superior, with no real evidence, other than "your opinion based upon your rather limited use of it".

Ron

It really seems you have a illness. You seem to forget I mentioned Opti- Coat as a good form of protection also.
You recently said you tested AT-5 back in 1996, so I would think you should know why it bonds better, You are the expert .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2012 03:43AM by billd55.

Quote from Ron:

So- we been through the documented test results, which are good, and much the same as other products results, yet you continue to preach that your favorite is superior, with no real evidence, other than "your opinion based upon your rather limited use of it".

Ron

What exact products have YOU tested that are the same as AT-5? Where is YOUR evidence that these products test
better or equal than AT-5? You mentioned in another post about some sealant from Chrysler, but could not post it. I suppose
20 years of using this product is what you consider limited.