I didn’t want you to think I was avoiding you, but I’ve been up to my ears with work, personal stuff and the holidays.
billd55 Wrote:
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You must have misunderstood what Rich told you here. AT-5 does reduce marring from washing.
I specifically asked Rich if AT-5 reduced marring AND had any kind of anti-marring properties and he clearly said NO. If you have something documenting and proving otherwise I’d like to see it.
billd55 Wrote:
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This argument of which paint is soft vs hard really is amusing to me. As I wrote in my post about types of paint used on clear coats they are mostly acrylic polyurethanes. It really makes little sense to me to say one company has harder vs softer paint than another. What would be the benefit of making clear coat paint softer if simple washing, or using a towel for drying would mar the surface? It really makes no sense at all.
Yes, it’s true. Some finishes are hard and some are soft. Unless you are in the practice of correcting them, it may or may not be something that you might not notice or understand. For example, you could have two cars to compare. Say a Mercedes S-Class (black) and a BMW 3-series (black) and mechanically wash each one identically with the same soap, the same wash mitt and the same process. I would be willing to bet a lot of money that the BMW would have a much higher and deeper concentration of wash induced marring. I’ve seen it on many, many occasions. The main reason would be Mercedes (on most of their European manufactured plants) use a special kind of clear coat called Ceramiclear (PPG). It’s purposefully harder to withstand abrasions and in turn allow the finish to hold a higher amount of its original gloss for longer periods of time compared to other paints. Because it’s so hard, it’s also a pain in the butt to remove marring from. Many time requiring a more abrasive polishing compound and pad to correct. Totally unlike the 3 Series BMW (3 and 1 series actually) which is primarily a much softer and prone to marring finish. From PPG’s own website proving this:
[
www.ppg.com]
billd55 Wrote:
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See what you cannot understand is this. Most waxes/sealants do not bond to paint. That is why it is a well known fact not to use Dawn on waxed vehicles. They breakdown the wax.
I totally agree and understand this.. Dawn breaks down wax as one of its intended purposes is to degrease your pots and pans. Wax and sealants are made up of various oils, so Dawn can sometimes do a decent job of diminishing/deteriorating this film from the surface. Common sense tells me this. If I wanted something that was proven to be impervious to Dawn or other degreasers I’d want to use a product like Optimum Opti-Coat. Dawn will not put a dent in this stuff.
billd55 Wrote:
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You seem to have made my point here. You admit that wax was used , and the car was washed prior to delivery to your customer.
Just because the car was washed by the dealer doesn’t mean it was waxed. I don’t get the connection? Believe me; dealers (especially this one) try to do the very least possible with any car. There’s nothing leading me to believe that the dealer used wax just because they washed it? Why they would spend more time when they aren’t getting paid more makes no sense. Especially when the customer requests that they don’t use any wax AND buys several other $100,000++ cars from them regularly. You’re saying that they dismissed what this customer requested in spite just so they could wax this car? I don’t believe this to be accurate.
billd55 Wrote:
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I never said these scratches were heavy on this Porsche. What I did say was that even using a mild
soap and wiping it dry will produce the marring you were asked to come out fix in the first place.
It’s not the mild soap and wiping it dry that created the marring on this car in these pics. It was a combination of the factory leaving compounding marks from not final polishing it correctly and the dealership detailers not knowing how to wash cars correctly. As I said before, the owner properly and regularly washed this vehicle and there was never any kind of marring that mimicked this as long as the owner owned the car. If this marring was a 10, the marring that I came back to correct was a .5.
billd55 Wrote:
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Can AT-5 be marred, Yes, but not by washing, claying , or using towels. Sure you could get marring from rubbing against a bush, but the difference is that Gem's cleaner would remove it instead of correcting the whole car.
Ok, then by that logic how did marring get installed onto the vehicles in your videos? Did each owner take a bush and rub it across they paint?
billd55 Wrote:
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The above statement is clearly based on your opinion with zero facts to support it. With AT-5 you do not have to remove it before correction , or applying another coat of wax/ sealant to return it to it's initial state. The reason for this is because it can bond to itself when properly cleaned first where wax/sealants cannot. It is just that simple.
That’s actually pretty complex. You’re saying that you can correct the finish that has been treated with AT-5 and not remove the AT-5? And you can layer the product onto and over itself? Has this been proven and if so can you provide evidence of it?
billd55 Wrote:
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What Gem's pre-cleaner does is clean the surface. In this case with the Porsche, the paint does not need to be leveled as you call it. It just needs to have the wax removed that is causing the problem. The clearcoat compound is for removing the minor actual scratches in the clear, and machine polishing would be necessary for that.
How can a product like the pre-cleaner remove scratches by just cleaning the surface? It has to level the scratch as well as the area encompassing the scratch in order to remove it. If you’re using the pre-cleaner and removing scratches (by hand especially) you’re most likely hiding/filling them in (chemically) and not removing them in the 1st place. And, again there is noting leading me to believe that this car has ever been waxed so I don’t see where wax has anything to do with correction of the paint? Can’t we just assume for the moment tat wax wasn’t used??
billd55 Wrote:
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Let me ask you this question? If your customer did not like these scratches, and others mostly likely also. I cannot see Porsche shipping cars from the factory with this obvious problem. It would seem the dealers would complain about it since they would have to pay you to fix it.
Manufacturers allow the problems with their vehicles to be fixed under warranty. Assuming that they acknowledge these issues in the 1st place which is half the battle seeing that dealership detailers don’t have the slightest idea how to identify or even correct these problems in the 1st place. And then there’s the salespeople who only care about selling the car and the owner being so excited to get this new car that they don’t pick up on any of these issues anyways. The manufactures knows there’s a problem but relies on the law of averages and chooses the road that costs them less to take which just so happens to be to keep these practices going. They’ve been doing it for decades….
billd55 Wrote:
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Also, it makes very little sense that the factory would spot compound areas of the car, and not the whole car.
Because the whole car didn’t need compounding. After a car is painted, it goes thought a quality control area where technicians identify and try correcting blemishes such as paint runs and surface dirt. The technician will then spot sand the defect and then quickly compound the sanding marks away. Depending on the color of the vehicle, they might do a finer polishing step to further refine the marring left in the 1st compounding step. What they don’t do is go 1 step further by refinish the prior steps marring away which in turned filled the 1st step anyways. If you ever get a chance to tour an auto assembly plant I would urge you to do so. There are actually several You-Tube videos too that go over this as well.
billd55 Wrote:
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I am puzzled. You are certain about what? You say they compounded the Porsche at the factory, and now you are doing the same thing.
Where did I say I compounded this car??? And yes I’m certain.
billd55 Wrote:
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Are you saying that Porsche does not know what they are doing when it comes to polishing their own paint, and you do?
Yes. Correct.
billd55 Wrote:
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You keep saying proper polishing permanently prevents these types of problems. I do not see it.
I never said I permanently prevented them. I said I permanently corrected the initial paint defects meaning that the defects weren’t filled or hidden like they were at the factory.
billd55 Wrote:
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You are correct. The reason why is because you are using wax/sealants. It is just that simple. I have applied AT-5 to hundreds of vehicles, and I never see this condition . If you want to avoid this problem, then stop using these products.
Have you ever maintained a late model black Porsche before? If not, then how would you know?
billd55 Wrote:
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What first hand experience do you have? Only with cars that use wax/sealants. What 1st hand experience do you have with AT-5? Working for 15 dealerships doing correction repairs is really not relevant on what AT-5 can or cannot do IMO.
No experience with AT-5 at all. If you’d like to send me a sample to test its scratch and chemical resistancy then I’d be willing to give feedback to support your cause.
billd55 Wrote:
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I just happen to feel that most customers just want to have their vehicle looking great , protected, and not have to worry if they are washing their cars the right way. The problem is, that one bad wash can be very costly in more ways than money. With AT-5 they do not have to worry about that bad wash, and they only I have to do it once a year.
I totally agree. Most people only care about clean and shiny paint and couldn’t even defect a swirl if their life depended on it. The clients I service do not fall within this norm. Neither do the services or prices for said services I provide. I cater to people that want their vehicles looking their absolute best. And the only way this can be done is by polishing them.
billd55 Wrote:
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You say this:preserve and protect paint for the long haul. How are you exactly doing this? I get the preserve part, but not the protection. What are you are protecting against. The sun, bugs, treesap, acid rain, salt ? Because waxes and sealants will not do that. They may add a barrier, but given a short time these elements go right thru it no matter how many times a year you come out. Most people do not keep their cars in a bubble, so it seems you are really saying that correction maintains the original shine of the paint only to maintain that 100% look.
Good point Bill. Yes, a barrier. And this barrier seems to hold up quite well to all these elements you listed or else I wouldn’t be allowed to keep maintaining these and my own vehicles to this high standard that I prescribe to. Besides, waxing and sealing a car is fun. I would be board to death if I didn’t have to do it anymore.