Setting the record straight once and for all

here are my final thoughts on the common back and forth arguments between the members.


1. WAX

I do not like wax, never use it, its a dinosaur and its greasy, smeary and doesn't really offer very good protection
However wax does not cause swirl marks, bad polishing and washing techniques and tools do - PERIOD!!!!
yes I do agree with Bill on one point. Wax should not be used. many of the wax products sold are total crap with outdated formulations that cause nothing but trouble

However to say that wax causes swirl marks - only if you apply it in circles with a pad thats not totally clean. besides that no way

2. Paint correction has it's place but using four products to correct a car's finish is obsolete. We now only need one or two, their water based, single polish systems and have a great formulation, correct quickly but progressively, is superior to a compound as it finishes down much finer
To only put a product like a sealant with not much filling ability, on a car and never correct the paint at all in the time the owner has it is sheer lunacy. Things need to be addressed. scratches, swirls over time, fading, oxidation, marring, water etching, bird crap
Yes products help protect that to a degree but maintenance is still needed

3. Combination of correction now and then and just doing long term filling and major gloss improvement with restructure marine, glare and permanon, which enhance the paint beyond that of correction is a great way to keep your car beautiful
My car is fourteen years old with dark blue metallic mica paint. It's been deep cleaned and corrected four times up until 2009. From there I only used glare and restructure marine and now permanon supershine aircraft instant curing glass like quartz coating

Correct deep marks and scratches when necessary but once done, rebuild up the paint with the non cutting products

It's very simple gang. Wash, decontaminate, clay, purify and correct the paint when necessary. As the car gets older, start enhancing the paint and building on it by filling in swirl marks with the above products which do not fill with oil or clay, and protect the paint with them . Permanon is awesome for gloss and depth as well as protection and is natural silicium/quartz based not man made silicone/carnuaba wax/teflon bs

SVR

I have never said this:

wax causes swirl marks

It is not the wax itself that causes the swirl marks. The problem comes with the washing and drying. Waxes/sealants are detergent resistant, not proof.

You even say this:

its greasy, smeary

It is very common to apply several coats at one time. Even using a mild soap will break down the wax somewhat which is what was seen in Pro-Techt Porsche pics. Since wax does not bond, washing tends to smear the coating producing
what is deemed actual scratches in the clear coat. Using strong soaps will produce this type of problem.

[www.autopia.org]



You say this:

To only put a product like a sealant with not much filling ability, on a car and never correct the paint at all in the time the owner has it is sheer lunacy. Things need to be addressed. scratches, swirls over time, fading, oxidation, marring, water etching, bird crap
Yes products help protect that to a degree but maintenance is still needed


I think you have mistaken what I have said completely. I agree AT-5 does not have any filling ability, and correcting a paint
finish once or twice may not be a bad thing either. Although, most things you mention can be prevented with AT-5 . Clearly,
nothing can stop certain scratches from happening, and correction and filling certainly would be a solution.

These things you mention: swirls over time, fading, oxidation, marring, water etching, bird crap are no problem with AT-5.
Why? because they prevent the problem in the first place, so correction is not needed. Example: tree sap will leave a dark
spot in the paint if not removed quickly, or bird crap will etch the paint. These things will not do damage with this sealant if applied on a yearly basis.

One would think that would be useful info to detailers who are here to stay current on new products, but sadly to say most
would rather fix these problems rather than prevent them. Also, many of the products you mention are very expensive.
Example:

Crystal Diamond Glaze Super Polish 12 oz

Price: $29.95


GLARE Professional Polish (12 oz. bottle) Number 1 in The World!

Price: $ 34.95

Permanon CAR Supershine 500 ml $87.18 each ( 13 ounces)

I have shown my source where you can get 1 gallon of AT-5 for $50.00. I am not saying your products are bad, but in my
honest opinion your products are not worth the extra price either for what they do. As a business person, you have to figure
that extra cost into a detail. Since you can do around 40 cars per gallon with AT-5 ,which makes better sense?


Quote:

3. Combination of correction now and then and just doing long term filling and major gloss improvement with restructure marine, glare and permanon, which enhance the paint beyond that of correction is a great way to keep your car beautiful
My car is fourteen years old with dark blue metallic mica paint. It's been deep cleaned and corrected four times up until 2009. From there I only used glare and restructure marine and now permanon supershine aircraft instant curing glass like quartz coating


I had a car for over ten years that was in the Florida sun everyday. I never once corrected it, or did any long term filling.
It was a rental car that had low miles, and a scratch down to bare metal that I never fixed for a reason. I applied one
coat per year of AT-5, and after 10 years that scratch never produced one bit of rust , nor did the shine diminish at all.
I washed it with only dish soap , and it had no damage on the paint.

SVR, this I agree with completely:Wash, decontaminate, clay, purify and correct the paint when necessary. This I am not so
sure about:As the car gets older, start enhancing the paint and building on it by filling in swirl marks with the above products which do not fill with oil or clay.

I will admit I have no experience with these products, but from what I see these products are just protection products and do not have filling capacity which you suggest.Am I wrong in this assumption?

You also mention natural silicium/quartz . Now I understand the hardness thing, but not the bonding thing. Clear coats
are acrylic urea thanes, and AT-5 is a true acrylic formulation designed to bond to this type of paint. How does silicium/quartz
bond permanently to the clear coat?



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 12/26/2011 04:36PM by billd55.

yes they do mate. An acrylic product is no match gloss or protection wise as a silicium/glass based product
And yes the glare and restructure marine products do fill and fill alot and each product used after the previous lock it in

permanon may not be the cheapest stuff but omg its insane and replaces alot of other products such as trim dressings, glass cleaner, interior protectants

with glare - it becomes part of the paint, underneath and on top

Now one final thing
if you can buy 1 gallon of AT5 for $50 bucks and the manufacturer has to make its money from that, then how cheap and crappy is that product going to be

Quality products cost more to make

Quote:

Quality products cost more to make

Then glare and restructure marine products should be half as good as permanon in quality given your logic.Is that the case? Why is it a bottle of Swiss vax wax costs $1,100 a bottle. Clearly, from your statement about wax you would not consider this a quality product even if it costs a lot, would you?


Quote:
yes they do mate. An acrylic product is no match gloss or protection wise as a silicium/glass based product


What facts do you base that on? By what AT-5 costs?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/27/2011 03:35PM by billd55.

Hi SVR, I don't think you have tested Permanon properly. It might be suited for dry climates but in wet and mucky conditions it fails miserably... Its actually "stickier" than uncoated paint to mud and wet mucky conditions.

How long will a PERMANON treatment last?

The only way to remove PERMANON is by abrasion or by using a cleaner with an alkalinity of PH12 or higher. If you use Permanon 2in1 Revitalizer for your regular washes, and neither abrasion nor PH12 or higher is present, then Permanon will remain on the surface indefinitely.
Source: [www.permanonfinishes.com]

What amount of "abrasion" is needed to remove it ? Would drying it with a towel after a washing be enough?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/27/2011 05:03PM by billd55.

Guys

Read the MSDS on these products you will find they are all close to being the same. A smart chemist can adjust the ingredients to ehance one feature over another.

For example, you can make a product have a great shine than another but you willl find that it will not have as much durability.

Or, a product that is more durable will not leave as high a shine as another.

Hard to find one that achieves all of the things detailers are looking for in a product.

Permanon; Glare; Xylon; Zymol; Swissvax; Diamond Plus; AT-5, etc.

If you want to believe the marketing hype that is up to you, but get to the physical makeup of the product and you will see there is not huge differences other than price.

Soon all the MSDS will have a total list of ingredients, not just the hazardous ingredients. The European Community countries are requiring the MSDS have all ingredients included. Then you can see that most products are quite similar

Bud Abraham

yes bud alot of products especially hair shampoo's, dish washing liquid and many other things contain the same stuff and often a really crappy formula at that

Profile - that's interesting. It's not perfect but the ease of application and applying as many times as you want makes it great
working on every surface of vehicles is another

Bud - I doubt that glare has anything in common in formulation to swisswax, diamond plus, AT-5 - these brands are carnuaba wax, acrylic or polymer, glare is none of that.

Swissvax is just wank factor bs, that did not cost that much or even half as much to make, thats just a retail price

Its very easy to apply alright. Do you use compressor & spray-gun? Great for coating the wheel arches, but as I am discovering, it holds wet dirt. Any chemist might correct me, but water is negatively charged and permanon holds a positive charge which is why it repels positively charged dust and dry dirt. But positive attracts negative....

how is something charged - I've never understood how some things are negative and positive, how do you make a product one or the other
yes everything holds wet grime, nothing you can do about that, gotta wash it off

Everything has a natural charge. Even you are charged, mate! Positively charged, I'm sure!!