HACK ALERT

Recently I got this private message from David Fermani:


Autopia.org
From: Pro-Techt
To: detailer
08/09/2012 06:24PM
I wanted to know if you'd like to be my guest on Autopia.org? I am part of the administration over there and can see to it that you get a fair chance to give your input on the world of detailing. I will do my best to keep people in line and following the rules. But, I think you need to be cautious about the constant mention of AT-5 as it will set off too many fires. Be more process oriented rather then always product minded. I think you have alot of decent things to contribute and also aren't afraid of voicing them. You just need to ake sure to do things politely and non-attacking. What do you think? I see you already have a membership over there. I can reset your password if you can't log on. Let me know your thoughts.

David

I should have trusted my instincts about this guy, but I thought he had changed.. Well, I complied with his request, and did not mention AT-5 once. Since they pulled my post down after one day I saved a copy to show I did what he asked.

I find it strange that most detailers really have no idea what is in the products they use on their cars, or seem to care. On most products you buy at any store today there are ingredients listed on the label, but not on detailing products. I wonder why that is?

I am not a chemist, but with the internet it is not hard to research chemicals to see what they offer as far what I need to satisfy my customer’s needs and wants. The only info about these products comes from the manufacture in the form of marketing, or what is on the label. Here is just one example:

Our most advanced hydrophobic wax! We've re-set the bar with a pure synthetic wax that provides extended protection with amplified reflectivity that won't leave a white residue on trim & plastic. Meguiar's® ThinFilm technology delivers our easiest application & removal... even if you have to wax in full sun! Cross-linking synthetic polymers form our longest-lasting protective barrier, amplifying reflections for incredible depth & mirror-like shine. Meguiar's® Ultimate – Our bar is simply higher.

Overwhelmed by commercials on television promoting the very latest in car care technology, car owners are often bewildered by the difference between car waxes. Since it’s often difficult to decide during a brief commercial the difference between waxes, the science behind them, and the results they produce, a consumer may often assume that the more expensive a wax, the better it must be. However, since there may be more reasons than quality alone that defines price, this is not an accurate way of making a good decision. A quote from an article “Car Are Expensive Car Waxes Better Than Cheaper Ones?”

Here is a thought; maybe there is no real difference in these products at all. Maybe they are just the same old products recycled under a new label and marketing hype to increase profits. Can anyone say I am wrong in this assumption?

Since no detailer really has a clue (including myself) what is in these products as far as chemicals goes. It would explain the constant search by detailers and vehicle owners to find a product that meets their needs. As far as I can see that only entails shine and how easy it is to apply. I am not saying this is not important by any means, but is that all? Really!

What about protecting the paint? I am not talking about durability. Because a sealant can withstand harsh soaps for a while does not mean it protects the paint also. What exactly do waxes and poly sealants protect against anyways? Not much.

It seems everyone has reasons why swirl marks happen, but no solution to prevent them. I find this interesting since detailers do not have a clue what chemicals are in the products they use, but know exactly what causes swirl marks to occur. Are the products used for covering up the problem for a while, or really removing them long term?
The term detailer is a word with no meaning as far as I am concerned. Here is an ad on craigslist making my point:
Opening available for an automotive Porter/Detailer. We are a busy repair shop, and looking for a fast paced individual with interest in auto. This is a full time job with benefits, must pass pre employment screening. Email the link above with work history.

Location: Cape Coral, FL
Compensation: $8.50
Many detailers wonder why they are looked upon in the same way as someone working at Mc Donald’s. It is simple in my opinion. Instead of fast food they do fast detailing .It is quick and cheap. Slap on a product that shines long enough to get it down the road. If the customer complains latter on because swirls appear it was the customers fault for not following proper washing techniques. Now, the customer is forced to pay more money to fix this problem by having correction done because he did not wash his car the right way.

My definition of a professional is someone who solves problems instead of making excuses. Uses products that produce results that do more than mask a problem for a short period. Understands my needs and wants with a true solution, and not a procedure that needs to be repeated for me not to live with an eye sore.

I realize that some vehicles need correction for obvious reasons, but spending many hours to correct flaws followed by a sealant or wax that you do not have a clue what is in it because it is cheap or easy to apply is not the mark of a true professional.

To sum this post up it makes no sense to me that if you do not know what is in the product you are applying to someone’s vehicle, and swirl marks occur. Than how do you know for sure what causes them? I am not the smartest guy in the world, but could it just be that swirl marks are a side effect of using these products?


In fact, this was the second time I was asked to come on this forum as a guest. I answered all questions in a respectful manner, but when they could not answer my response to their questions. The children got mad and threaten to leave the forum. Does that sound familiar.


Next time you think this guy should be listened to as a expert, THINK AGAIN. These are his own words from post on his forum.




We can and do 30-35 wholesale details per day with 6-8 detailers.

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Please join in on our Chat Room every Thursday @ 5pm PST / 8pm EST


Metro Detroit's (up and coming) Leader in Vehicle Preservation & Perfect Paint Finishes

Autopia.org.........for People Who Know. The internet's original car care forum.




So technically your techs do 4-5 cars per day?
Also, I'm curious how much floor space you have.

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- Todd Schmidt -
Auto Reconditioning Specialist
and Master of Shine

TS Detailing
Wisconsin's Premier Mobile Detailing Specialist





About 5500 square feet which included 2 wash bays, an office/showroom and about 8 spots to work on vehicles. One of the keys to doing high volume is having a dedicated person prepping cars (2 at a time) and a final inspector/finisher. That saves time for the detailer and allows them to produce more volume. A decent detailer can do 3-5 vehicles per day no problem in my scenario. When you're constantly staring at 20-40 vehicles on your lot, you think of ways to get them done quicker and more efficiently.

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Metro Detroit's (up and coming) Leader in Vehicle Preservation & Perfect Paint Finishes

Autopia.org.........for People Who Know. The internet's original car care forum.

SouthFloridaAutoDetailer@gmail.com



David,
I was under the impression you were an insurance adjuster, am I wrong?




You are correct. I sold my business in Michigan about 3 years ago to a close friend who is still doing really well (considering how bad the economy is). I sold out to corporate America after getting burned out (I thought) after 10 years in business. I'm actually considering moving back, taking over the business and starting up a Rust, Fab & Paint protection company + dealer lot washing. Crazy idea; we'll see what happens.

Here is the link:
[www.autopia.org]#

WELL HERE ARE THE FACTS PLAIN AND SIMPLE.THIS GUY RAN A HACK SHOP. NO DETAILER CAN DO 4 to
5 DETAILS IN ONE DAY. DO THE MATH, THAT IS 2.5 HOURS PER VEHICLE OVER 10 HOURS. IF ANYONE CAN DO CORRECTION THE RIGHT WAY IN THAT AMOUNT OF TIME THAT IS NEWS TO ME.

HE HAS COME ON THIS FORUM TALKING CRAP ABOUT ALL HIS EXPERIENCE DETAILING CARS. WELL IT SEEMS TO BE ALL ABOUT MONEY WITH HIM, AND NOTHING MORE.


COULD THIS CAR BE DONE IN HIS TIME FRAME? NO. QUOTE FROM DETALER ON TIME REQUIRED.
I have probably 30-35 hours in it. Yes all the panels are clear coated. Some softer than others unfortunately.

[www.autopia.org]

LET ME OFFER A COMPLIMENT TO THIS DETAILER FOR DOING IT THE RIGHT WAY. HERE IS EXAMPLE OF A CAR THAT NEEDED CORRECTION, BUT HE APPLIED OPTI COAT AS THE FINAL STEP AND NOT WAX OR A POLY SEALANT.

PAUL, I WAS NOT GOING TO POST ANYMORE, BUT I FEEL THIS PERSON NEEDS A REALITY CHECK.
MAYBE OTHERS WILL SEE HIM FOR WHAT HE REALLY IS. A LEGEND IN HIS OWN MIND.



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2012 02:15PM by detailer.

Bill - Sorry, but it's not my fault that everyone has a hard time interacting with you. I tried my best to give you a fair opportunity and I was genuine with my offering. I did not attack you one bit and tried making sure that the people on the forum followed the rules too. Don't blame me that even people that didn't know anything about you thought your opinions on car care were flawed (right off the bat). And you didn't even have to mention AT-5! Again, sorry but I tried to give you a chance to get out of your detailing cage and it didn't work. There is no reason to attack me over it either. I don't see you having any kind of long term stable membership on any industry forum or organization? Maybe it's time to step back and evaluate yourself? Surely EVERYONE except you can't be wrong all the time???

And by the way, I pulled the entire thread because I felt it wasn't fair to you or the detailing industry as a whole to keep it up for people to see.

David, you did all you could.
For the record, I NEVER requested that Bill be banned or any such thing.
After all, a few years of watching him, reading his agenda rants, not be open to anything that others may have to contribute to his skills,his attacks on anyone who did not drink his kool aid, knew it was just a matter of time before he would "run his self" off of another forum.
Grumpy

David

You keep telling your self that line of bull all you want.
Quote:
And by the way, I pulled the entire thread because I felt it wasn't fair to you or the detailing industry as a whole to keep it up for people to see.


You may take as what I say here as an attack, but it is just showing what guys like you are all about. Here is what you said what you did in the business.

Pro-Techt [ PM ]
Re: dealership cars
December 21, 2011 11:28PM Registered: 1 year ago
Posts: 201
In our hayday we had 8 people working(+ me) doing upwards of 35 dealer cars per day, 6 days a week. That included used car recons, body shop spiffs, delivery recleans, new car preps and warranty paint repairs. The key is to reduce your "touch time" and only use processes that work in a forward motion to get the car out the door. We also had a 24 hr completition expectation (generally), but could easily get an average car done in 3 hours if needed.


I understand completely what this work entails , and what you are paid for the work. Although, is seems to me this is where most correction detailers get alot of their business is from bad dealership work. Only spending 3 hours on a car requires cheap and easy products to be used for a quick shine.

This is not real detailing IMO. It is just hack detailing plain and simple. See it all the time on Craigslist:

We are a Local Automotive / Car Detailer Event Company with MORE EVENTS THAN WE CAN HANDLE.
We need to fill 12 more positions by THIS WEEK to prepare for New Events and begin training you.

NO Experience Necessary and Full PAID Training is Provided
MUST BE AVAILABLE TO WORK FT HOURS


See detailing is just another business for you, and not a passion much like you buddy Ron. Well for me it is not.
It took me 20 years to learn the skills I know today. Why should I listen to anything you offer as experience?Care to comment?

All you do is argue with me, followed with zero facts to support anything. You have not tried AT-5, but continue to rant
that you know I am wrong. Also, that I refuse to learn from guys like you and Ron.What have you showed me as proof? WHERE IS IT ,OR SHUT UP!



Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/2012 05:10PM by detailer.

Ketch22 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> David, you did all you could.
> For the record, I NEVER requested that Bill be
> banned or any such thing.
> After all, a few years of watching him, reading
> his agenda rants, not be open to anything that
> others may have to contribute to his skills,his
> attacks on anyone who did not drink his kool aid,
> knew it was just a matter of time before he would
> "run his self" off of another forum.
> Grumpy


Ron

Like you had nothing to do with me being banned here either.

If anyone had anything of value for me to learn from I would consider it. Although, I see nothing you have said worth listening to except your constant reminder of your job history.

Since I do not have swirl mark problems what exactly can you help with. Also Ron, your idol David asked me on his forum, so I was not run off.

Ketch22 [ PM ]
Re: DEALER WORK
April 16, 2012 10:38PM Registered: 5 years ago
Posts: 158
Agreed, it is a "large" area and types of business to address in such a small response area.
You did specifiy new car or used car, however there may be more to this than meets the eye.
Some do only "new car prep" work, others do both "new car prep and used car recon".
Others do only quality used car recon.
Then, the are those who do the "pop lot" work, quicky, shine and go, get it on the lot, make it shine and then it can go to auction if not sold in a couple of weeks work.(in my opinion, these are the one's that "come and go" sort of detail operations, not lasting more for than a year.
No retail work according to your question posted, just dealer work, and once again, "question" is are the subjected dealers new car franchise dealers or used car lots, and there are more than one type of such of those dealers.
Bud, it just goes on and on, and there are many who are serious about getting in the business, but have no idea of how varied the "detailing" market is, what is expected, how to make sure they are paid, etc, etc.
This is where such as you, Gina, Pro-Detailer, etc may be of great source of "knowledge" for them.
Getting them to really consider and listen to what such have to offer is another area completely.

Grumpy


David
Here is what your buddy Ron thinks of the work you did in your business you brag about.

Then, the are those who do the "pop lot" work, quicky, shine and go, get it on the lot, make it shine and then it can go to auction if not sold in a couple of weeks work.(in my opinion, these are the one's that "come and go" sort of detail operations, not lasting more for than a year.


I guess I should read more of Ron's posts.

David, as do the other true, long time professionals in the detailing industry know, "there are varying needs and expectations by various customers, which may be individuals, new vehicle dealerships, used vehicle sales lots, auction facilities, etc."
Not every one of any of those mentioned are willing to go beyound a certain cost and work level for the vehicles, they purchase the level of service that they want or need, not what the "detailer" wants them to do..
That is the meaning of the post you quoted, not one that was taking issue with anyone in the post.
All of those knew exactly what I was referring to, except for you.
Grumpy

No worrries Ron. Believe me I totally understand. I'm blessed to say that I have come full spectrum with detailing. Going from operating a high volume shop to now just putzing around on a little nicer cars. LOL. At this point Bill is just grasping for air. It will only take 1 person to report him to Paul for him to go bye bye.....Bask in his idiocy while we can until it's time to play whack a mole with him again on the next forum he spams.

Pro-Techt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No worrries Ron. Believe me I totally understand.
> I'm blessed to say that I have come full spectrum
> with detailing. Going from operating a high volume
> shop to now just putzing around on a little nicer
> cars. LOL. At this point Bill is just grasping for
> air. It will only take 1 person to report him to
> Paul for him to go bye bye.....Bask in his idiocy
> while we can until it's time to play whack a mole
> with him again on the next forum he spams.


WHEN YOU CANNOT ANSWER THE CHARGES THAN CRY TO PAUL.

Ketch22 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> David, as do the other true, long time
> professionals in the detailing industry know,
> "there are varying needs and expectations by
> various customers, which may be individuals, new
> vehicle dealerships, used vehicle sales lots,
> auction facilities, etc."
> Not every one of any of those mentioned are
> willing to go beyound a certain cost and work
> level for the vehicles, they purchase the level of
> service that they want or need, not what the
> "detailer" wants them to do..
> That is the meaning of the post you quoted, not
> one that was taking issue with anyone in the
> post.
> All of those knew exactly what I was referring to,
> except for you.
> Grumpy


RON

Doing work for money is what is all about right? Real pros do the job the right way,or they are just hacks.

Making a "buck or two", doing some polishing, or such on a vehicle does not necessarily qualify one to call themself a "professional detailer".
Grumpy

Ketch22 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Making a "buck or two", doing some polishing, or
> such on a vehicle does not necessarily qualify one
> to call themself a "professional detailer".
> Grumpy


I could not have said it better myself.Maybe you should listen to your advice.
Since I try to avoid polishing at all cost you must be talking to someone else.

Guess who made this statement when he first started posting here?

Being also from South Florida (east), I can also say that 99% of the “Detailers” in the entire state don’t have any more of a clue to the characteristics of what a well preserved vehicle looks like any more than the car owners they serve. It’s like the blind leading the blind actually. Even most owners that show off their vehicles in well renowned car shows think that even their swirled up paint finishes are the SOP of owning a show car. Getting through to these bubble heads to discuss how their car could look completely different with a proper polishing job is like talking to a rock. (Your quote )

I can also say that 99% of the “Detailers” in the entire state don’t have any more of a clue to the characteristics of what a well preserved vehicle looks like any more than the car owners they serve. Getting through to these bubble heads to
discuss how their car could look completely different with a proper polishing job is like talking to a rock.

David Fermani

Here is another exchange between us when David joined this forum:



Quote from David
I’d also be willing to accept a small sample of your miracle acrylic sealant and do some real world testing against my favorite protective products. If you can’t make it, no problem, set up a sample from your people @ JEM and I’d be happy to pick it up from them in person. Maybe they can supply me with their lab test results documenting their 5 year durability claim too.



Quote
billd55
Gee, that is mighty big of you, anything else you would like.
To be honest with you I do not think you have the passion to use this product or promote it. Even if you had a sample it would sit on your self.If you are interested contact GEM yourself.

His response:
I’d be happier than you to promote a product 1/10 as good as you claim yours is, but I have a sneaking suspesion it’s performance will be as disappointing as your own on this thread. I’m actually planning on contacting GEM early next week and will try meeting with them to discuss their products as well as their spokesman’s behavior on the internet. I’m wondering if they realize that the credibility of their product is at risk every time you get outted and banned from countless Detailing discussion forums? When you Google their name these threads where you get lynched from seem to be at the top of a search. Well, I guess some view any publicity (be it negative in your case) is good publicity?


TO THIS DAY I HAVE NOT CHANGED MY OPINION ABOUT DAVID.YOU CAN SEE BY HIS RESPONSE THAT HE WOULD SELL ANY PRODUCT IF THEIR WAS A BUCK IN IT.

WHEN I STARTED IN THIS BUSINESS I WORKED FOR FREE TO LEARN FROM GUYS WHO WERE USING THE PRODUCT. I DID NOT ACT LIKE A SKEPTICAL ASS , AND THEN EXPECT THEM TO OFFER HELP. I HAD A .OPEN MIND TO LEARN. TODAY I USE THE SAME PRODUCT, AND METHOD THAT WORKS FOR ME SINCE 1989.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2012 04:50PM by detailer.

Quote from David:
I don't know what is funnier or more ironic? Bill's "detailer" screen name or what he considers experience needed to deserve the right to use that title? What it should read is "Banned" Bill seeing that he was already banned once from here for being such an AT-5 troll. I've never seen a more pathetic person who aligns himself to the detailing industry.

Washing swirled up cars and applying an acrylic paint sealant to it doesn't make you a detailer.

Teaching newbies how to apply AT-5 to a plane doesn't make you a detailer or an instructor either.

I'm sorry, but there is ALOT more to detailing then this!

Swirls are not caused from wax. It's caused from improper washing and use of buffing machines. PERIOD.

According to your flawed logic, because all the cars in your videos have swirls, that must mean you are waxing them?

I would much rather offer service to my clients that is genuine rather then blowing smoke up their ass about how wonderfully protected their swirled up cars will be if you apply a miracle sealant to them.

You should be ashamed to even show your face on here, let alone disrespect Ron by questioning his experience and knowledge like a little 5 year old. If you had an ounce of respect and itellect you would issue a full apology and get a lobotomy


WHO IS THE REAL PATHETIC PERSON HERE? One more example of someone here who cannot offer anything but
insults and opinions based on nothing.

He admits that he talked to my contact at Gem Industries, but why did he not ask for a sample of AT-5? He could have tried it, and then formulated his own opinion instead of this common type of response:

Pro-Techt [ PM ]
Re: Surprise, Surprise , Surprise
December 20, 2011 02:18PM Registered: 1 year ago
Posts: 207
LOL X2 - There's no way Bill has the balls to go on Autopia. If Paul has been that good to you why have tried posting on every forum except Autopia? I bet he's scared. Go ask your Teflon master Richard permission 1st though.


By the way, I did go on Autopia when David asked .


Here was my first invitation:

Hi Bill
From: Jack Maioffer
To: billd55
12/17/2011 02:14PM
Hi Bill.
I'm a moderator on a popular detailing forum called Autopia.org and even though I didn't decide to join Web-Cars until now, I have followed this forum and your posts for a long while. I see that many members here give you alot of problems for sharing your opinion on detailing. I would like to make you aware that there is a forum out there that allows people such as yourself to freely exchange information. As long as you are willing to keep an open mind I would like you to be my guest to join Autopia.org. I tried doing a search of our database and didn't see any usernames that linked to you. Let me know if I can be of further assistance. Looking forward to your participation soon.

Jack
autopiamoderator@gmail.com
www.Autopia.org


Now will Dave have the balls to comment on this ? Most likely not.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/23/2012 04:37PM by detailer.

1 MORE EXAMPLE WHY YOU NEED A LOBOTOMY AND PROFESSIONAL PHYSIATRIC HELP!!!!!!! DON'T YOU WANT TO STOP THE MADNESS GOING OFF IN YOUR HEAD ??????

Pro-Techt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 1 MORE EXAMPLE WHY YOU NEED A LOBOTOMY AND
> PROFESSIONAL PHYSIATRIC HELP!!!!!!! DON'T YOU
> WANT TO STOP THE MADNESS GOING OFF IN YOUR HEAD
> ??????


David

You just made my point!

YOUR QUOTE ABOUT ME:

I think you have alot of decent things to contribute and also aren't afraid of voicing them.

Now who is bi-polar here?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/23/2012 04:51PM by detailer.

detailer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> By the way, I did go on Autopia when David asked
> .
> Here was my first invitation:
>
> Hi Bill
> From: Jack Maioffer
> To: billd55
> 12/17/2011 02:14PM
>
>
> Now will Dave have the balls to comment on this ?
> Most likely not.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/23/2012 12:37PM by detailer.

Pro-Techt [ PM ] Re: HACK ALERT August 23, 2012 12:17PM


Why do you keep editing your posts after I make mine and then ask me why I don’t have the balls to comment? Again showing how deviant and misplaced the workings of your pea sized brain is. You really need help Bill. I hope you aren’t near any schools or movie theaters???


I also love how in your edit your post to add the Private Message from the Autopia Moderator you’re last identity here received here.

Do you really think there is a moderator there named “Jack Me Offer” ????? LOL!!! That one went right over your head and proves how dense you really are!!!! HAHA

Oh, I forgot to mention that a handsome fellow named Harry Balzonya will be calling you next to get his car AT-5'd. LOL!!!

All:

This thread,and others, have gone over the top.

Please use more civility when posting to the Auto Detailing: Secrets of the Experts message board.

Note that I am not making judgements as to who is right / wrong. To me, that is not the issue here.

It is my goal to offer high quality content here. Past experience has shown me that flame wars are counter productive towards that end.

To put it another way, I'll take "boring" any day if that means that professional, competent and considerate people are encouraged to contribute.



~paul
WebCars! Webmaster

Paul - thanks for stepping in for a reality check.

As I’m sure you are quite aware, this “detailer” fellow is prior member BillD55 who you banned due to these same kinds of antics that he’s currently doing. He has obviously rejoined just to start this crap again. Take a look at the thread titles that he chooses just to attack anyone that doesn't agree with his mentally ill way of rationalizing with experienced detailers. I and several others have tried (on numerous occasions) to give Bill a "pass" on his ill minded thought processes, but unfortunately he is unable to do the same. I was even so nice that I went as far as to invite him to "talk shop" on another popular detailing forum too. But truth be told he acted unprofessionally there too. I DON'T want Bill to be banned, but unless more moderating is placed I'm just afraid he will keep on taking the path of a raging lunatic as this is all he knows how to do. I wish you luck in finding a perfect balance of well mannered members.

Paul

Really, I get your point. It is just my opinion from many years in this business. Other members choose not to comment
on what I say,and that is fine.Although, Ron, Bud,and David seem to inject on all my posts with their opinion as right.

I do not choose to attack anyone here, but these members have NEVER given me the benefit that they could be wrong.Either you agree with them or else.

I really had no intentions of posting here or on other forums because of the bias. There is really no open forums left.
They are controlled by companies that sell their products. I admit I use AT-5, but that is not the point.


I continue to see the same questions about swirl marks posted over and over again. When I post what I feel the problem is I am banned for spamming,or being a shill.

David asked me to come on his forum, and posted a a respectful post. Ron was the first one to submit on attack on me. Then David takes it down less then a day later. Ya, I was mad.for taking David for he said.

Since I have been grilled on my experience I felt it was appropriate to turn the tables. You can see they do not like to be challenged on what they believe.

Paul, thank you for attempting to calm things down.
However, life is too short to put up with Buffer Bill and his "mind problems", so I will just bow out of the phorum until as such time it can get back to what you meant it to be, one good phorum.
Grumpy