Denial is not a river in Egypt

Many car owners are in a constant battle trying to eliminate swirl marks (sometimes called spider webs) and scratches from ruining the look of their car's paint finish. But instead of always trying to fix the problem, let's try and prevent the problem from occurring in the first place. After all they just don't appear by themselves. The reality is, those swirl marks and scratches are due to the action of car owners.


So here are some simple Do's and Don'ts to stop these swirl marks and scratches from appearing. Some may seem obvious but all of these recommendations are based on the experiences we've had over the years.

DON'Ts

Don't use a paper towel, old rag, flannel shirt, t-shirt, or cloth diaper to wash or dry your paint.

Don't use an abrasive pot scrubber (such as Scotch Brite (R)) to wash your paint or remove stains.

Don't use the wheel brush attachment at self-service wash stations (sometimes called wash boxes).

Don't use anything other than a carwash shampoo or detailing product to wash your car.

Don't use an abrasive cleaner such as Softscrub (R) to remove stains from your car.

Don't wash your car at a hand carwash where they typically use thin, low cost worn rags to dry your car.

DO's

Do wash your car only with a microfiber wash mitt or an authentic wool wash mitt.

Do rinse your car from top to bottom before washing to loosen dirt that can contaminate your wash mitt and cause swirl marks and scratches in your finish.

Do wash your car from top to bottom to prevent dirt from the lower part of your car from contaminating your wash mitt which can scratch your paint.

Do use a microfiber towel or synthetic chamois to dry your car (such as S.M. Arnold's Watersprite (R)).

Do take your car only to touch-less carwashes, self-service wash stations (sometimes called wash boxes), or carwashes with advanced foam brushes.

Follow these simple do's and don'ts and you'll have a scratch-free car worthy of showing off. If you still have scratches and need to remove them, click here for information on how to remove them and the best car polishes to use.
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(A TYPICAL ARTICLE WRITTEN ON HOW TO PREVENT SWIRL MARKS ON THE INTERNET)

The purpose of this article states how to prevent swirl marks and scratches. Although, it seems to be a denial of a what really causes them.

This is what the author feels is the real cause behind them:

The reality is, those swirl marks and scratches are due to the action of car owners.

The author makes this statement:

But instead of always trying to fix the problem, let's try and prevent the problem from occurring in the first place. After all they just don't appear by themselves.

He is right that swirl marks do not appear by themselves, but his solution does not in any way prevent them in the first place. Why is that? Even if you follow all these steps to the letter does not guarantee they will not happen in the future without correction being used. Many people think covering them up with wax, or polishes is prevention, but is it really?

Here is a common post I see all the time on forums that illustrate my point:

How to Avoid Swirl Marks !!!
Hey guys,

Ive been detailing my car, 1996 Nissan Maxima Dark Green in color, for years. I do all my steps and after I am done I have NO swirls. Even in the dead sun, nothing. Then a few days later, maybe after a rain or two, I have swirls !!! All over the place. Not deep either. I am prepping for swirls as well, and nothing seems to not make them appear. Maybe I am doing something wrong. Here is what I am doing.

WASH + DRY
CLAY Bar with Mothers

**ALL DONE BY HAND***
Poor Boys SSR2.5 Medium swirl
KLASSE All-In-One Polish
KLASSE SEALANT GLAZE *put in garage*
24 hours another coat SG *put in garge*
24 hours another coat SG

Top finish of P21S 100% Carnuba Wax


Any tips or advice would be good. It may just be that the clear coat is so old and its much of harsh products. Or something in the process is wrong.

Thanks for any input
-matt

Here is one response from this post :

Re: How to Avoid Swirl Marks !!!
You can't avoid it all you can do is to minimize it...

The moment you wipe you paint you are abrading it.. Whether it will become swirls or not will depend on what kind of cloth you use (MF,cotton,rags),how much pressure you put into it and if there's something on your cloth or paint..soap/lubrication is good grid is bad...Last but not least the hardness of your paint will also be a factor

If you want to avoid it the only honest answer is don't let anything touch your car


IS THIS WHAT PASSES FOR LOGIC? DO NOT LET ANY THING TOUCH YOUR CAR! HOW DO YOU DO THAT IN THE REAL WORLD?


Clearly all the products applied to this car are no concern to anyone here as a factor. No one even gives that a thought as a possible cause.How is it that rational people cannot see that applying all these coats of NON BINDING
products will not wear off ,and not effect the shine?

Here is the definition of the term "prevent":

pre·vent
? ?[pri-vent] Show IPA
verb (used with object)
1.
to keep from occurring; avert; hinder: He intervened to prevent bloodshed.
2.
to hinder or stop from doing something: There is nothing to prevent us from going.
3.
Archaic . to act ahead of; forestall.
4.
Archaic . to precede.
5.
Archaic . to anticipate.

I FEEL THIS ARTICLE SHOULD BE RENAMED HOW TO LIVE WITH SWIRL MARKS BECAUSE I SEE
NOTHING IN THIS SO CALLED ARTICLE THAT OFFERS ANY TIPS ON HOW TO PREVENT THEM.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/31/2012 03:42PM by detailer.

It just goes to show, from this post, that the subject matter, while interesting, is one that somewhere in the area of 30 views, exhibit that most who look at it, and do read the other threads on the forum, and the responding posts see through the intent of the one starting such a thread.
That shows that the "starter" of the thread does not have a following of him or his posts, or wish to respond to his posted thread/threads.
Now --why is that?
Perhaps, just perhaps, those who do follow, have grown tired of such posted threads that are not creditable, and just a "promotion" of some product, with no "real or documented" facts of what the original poster is continuing to post.
I will not ask/request that no one respond to such a thread, what ever one does, is their decision, and that is what the forum is all about.
Been more than a few days, make your own decision regarding this and other subjects this poster started and has done.
Personaly, I have to believe that the majority of vistors, posters to the site, have had enough of such actions.
I am not one to "constantly promote one product" as a "do all, be all, everyone who uses anything other is wrong" when I post here.
I am willing to share my documented work and the result of a few decades of working with the majority of the vehicle manufacturers, with ICAR, with the ICA, and what such of these experiences with paint/trim/body engineers have shared with me, as well as their paint suppliers, etc.
There are ways about the internet, other than some YouTube videos,(and we all know, anyone can beat their drum on those such of sites, with no real documentation), by searching out such as me, it's Ronald Ketcham and no, I am not the same one that is big in the SCQA of SoCal, but I do know him, had to, due to my work with such companies as I did before I retired, it had to do with VOC regulations, in the automotive industry, bodyshops, detailing chemicals, etc.
Grumpy

Quote:
Perhaps, just perhaps, those who do follow, have grown tired of such posted threads that are not creditable, and just a "promotion" of some product, with no "real or documented" facts of what the original poster is continuing to post.
I will not ask/request that no one respond to such a thread, what ever one does, is their decision, and that is what the forum is all about.


Ron

What real or documented facts have you posted that I am wrong except your continual repeating of your resume?
Your posts are nothing but your opinion based on nothing but what YOU think.

You have never used the product, but you just ramble on like a expert. Why don't you let others form their own opinion
, but it seems your ego will not allow it.

Since your only experience is in correction,and being involved with companies that sell these types of detailing products. I have never seen one post from you showing any REAL info on why someone should listen to you.
Maybe you should shut up and mind your own business, or post something worth reading.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/03/2012 02:18PM by detailer.

Quote:

I am not one to "constantly promote one product" as a "do all, be all, everyone who uses anything other is wrong" when I post here.



Ron

What exactly are you promoting here? Clearly, all you hear from me is AT-5,but what really makes you and others here mad is what I say about swirl marks. It seems that is what you and others are promoting is swirl marks.

Believe or not there are people out there who do not live to have the "perfect finish" on their car. I really do not care what anyone puts on their personal vehicles, but when pros push correction and the use of waxes and poly sealants as the best solution to paint protection than that is wrong IMO.

As a mobile detailer I work with customers directly, and listen to what they want from me as far as a service goes.
This is how I make money. They do want a shiny vehicle for sure, but they ABSOLUTELY do not want swirl marks also.
Unfortunately, you and other ignore that ,and continue doing things one way.

Granted some people can afford expensive correction, but many cannot. Just because it has been done a certain way
for a long time does not mean there could be a better way. This post just shows you have zero interest in that idea.

I really seems strange how you never promote the products of the companies you worked for. Is there a reason for that?

Very simple as why I do not "promote" the company I worked with for years, other than few products, when the need arises.
There are many, many good products on the market that will do what the normal consumer or detailer needs to be done.
That is simple, and you, being the simple minded person, ego driven which you keep making people aware of, must have a real problem in understanding that.
My former employer, whom I retired from after 13 years with them and 11 years before that, with Finish Kare, and we did not wish to have such as you as a customer.,
Simple, AI is a more OEM focused company, and that direction requires that the products must go through their labs, their engineering groups, massive and expensive/extenisve, field testing for many months, even years.
ValuGard is not a company that seeks out such as you.
They, simply put, they do NOT want such as you for a customer.
The company's customers are way beyond you and your outdated, mis-understood, mis-directed, methods.
Grumpy

Ketch22 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Very simple as why I do not "promote" the company
> I worked with for years, other than few products,
> when the need arises.
> There are many, many good products on the market
> that will do what the normal consumer or detailer
> needs to be done.
> That is simple, and you, being the simple minded
> person, ego driven which you keep making people
> aware of, must have a real problem in
> understanding that.
> My former employer, whom I retired from after 13
> years with them and 11 years before that, with
> Finish Kare, and we did not wish to have such as
> you as a customer.,
> Simple, AI is a more OEM focused company, and
> that direction requires that the products must go
> through their labs, their engineering groups,
> massive and expensive/extenisve, field testing
> for many months, even years.
> ValuGard is not a company that seeks out such as
> you.
> They, simply put, they do NOT want such as you
> for a customer.
> The company's customers are way beyond you and
> your outdated, mis-understood, mis-directed,
> methods.
> Grumpy


Ron
I have no idea what you are talking about here as usual. This post makes zero sense.

ValuGard is not a company that seeks out such as you.
They, simply put, they do NOT want such as you for a customer.
The company's customers are way beyond you and your outdated, mis-understood, mis-directed, methods.

Ron

To be real honest , I would not want to use their products.

Here is what a actual customer thinks about one of your former company products.


07-19-2010, 10:43 PM #1
richy's Avatar
richy
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Default Valu Guard let me down..again..

I had bought the Value Guard (or ABC) decontamination system about 2 years ago and have used it a few times. On a few bad cars, it has let me down. I started a G37 in pearl white tonight that had yellow spots all over the lower panels...a lot of it. I followed the instructions and let it dwell for the max time allowed. I saw no difference whatsoever! I think I need to order some Iron Cut by Aquartz and try it out. I wonder if you can get it by the gallon? Seems like you use a lot from what I've read. The whole Aquartz line interests me. On the G, I ended up using CM red with a lot of elbow grease to remove the spots...not great for my shoulder. I don't know what to do with my Valu Guard now...I see no reason to keep it.

Advice from another poster:

file it in the round filing cabinet?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/05/2012 12:12PM by detailer.

Ron

Here is another review of Perma Plate/Value Guard sealant


Perma Plate / Value Guard paint protection effective? (Pics inside)

I tried searching but found no answers. Just wanted to see if someone has purchased this paint protection product when they purchased their Odyssey. Is it worth the money or is it useless?
I paid around $500 and was advised that I would never have to wax the car ever. It's some kind of paint sealant/clear coat that will last forever. I was thinking that since I have a black Odyssey, it's worth a shot.



Response from a actual user:


mik911
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Useless.

I've got a blk ody too.
I also have a blk volvo suv, and when i bought the lease out on it, they threw in a free perma-plate treatment. Retail for $600, It was equivalent in quality to a 'typical' $100-200 detail job, in my opinion. The 'sealant' on the paint doesn't even feel like it's as protective as a good wax job. The interior was like they just wiped ArmorAll all over.
Since the sealant treatment, I ran over some wet paint, which splattered all over the lower panel, and it was really hard to get off. I don't think the sealant made it any easier (not worse, but not any better).

Last edited by mik911; 05-28-2009 at 12:58 AM.

2008 Touring Black/Black
2006 Volvo XC90 (suv)
1986 Porsche 911
9'6" longboard

Here is another interesting response:

05-28-2009, 01:57 PM #4
SellnACURA
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The exterior "sealant" is just a good quality wax. The interior "fiber guard" is just sprayed on scotch guard type of sealant. You are basicly just paying for the warranty. I've watched a detailer apply the "process" in less than an hour, even though the finance manager that sells it says it will take a full day!
To answer your question, Yes it does work (like wax) but it doesn't last forever, (like wax) so you will have to re-apply it again. The interior guard is fabulous! if applied right. You will be amazed as liquids just pool up rather than get soaked into the carpet/seat fabric. But... it does wear off, depending on how much use the seats or carpets get. The correct way of applying the interior sealant is to saturate the carpet and seat material. If it is just lightly misted it will not allow the liquids pool up. Is it worth the $$$ ? it depends on if you use the warranty on the paint or fabric.

Last edited by SellnACURA; 05-28-2009 at 02:05 PM.

Acura Sales Manager


Vehicles Owned Presently:
2007 Honda Odyssey Touring (Tafetta White)
2004 Acura TL Navi (Diamond White Pearl)
1994 Honda Civic LX Sedan (Frost White)
1990 Honda CR-X SI (Championship White)
1986 Honda Civic Custom Convertible (featured in Low Rider Magazine) (Magenta Kandy, with Multi-color graphics)
Honda Gas powered lawn mower (Red)
Honda Gas powered Power washer (Black)
2000 Toyota Tacoma (Silver)

However, life is too short to put up with Buffer Bill and his "mind problems", so I will just bow out of the phorum until as such time it can get back to what you meant it to be, one good phorum.
Grumpy

Maybe you should do what you say you are going to do.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/05/2012 12:45PM by detailer.