sidwynder
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What you should know about Bird Droppings on wax
What I am about to reveal is common knowledge in the wax industry but seldom exposed to the public.
Ever wonder why bird droppings are so hard to remove the longer they sit on your car?
Or just the opposite, rinse off so easily?
Most natural wax used in automotive products comes from trees, A popular type is carnuaba. People like it because of it's ability to get rock hard.
These hard waxes offer a small degree of protection over softer waxes.
They last longer and are harder to remove. People who use these waxes suffer the most from bird droppings left sitting on their car.
The reason is very simple, so simple most people don't put the two and two together to realise the cause.
Birds eat tree seeds, leaves and fruit. They have a system filled with acids designed to digest these things.
The droppings are liquidfied by the acid which continues to work on your wax once the droppings comes in contact with it.
The wax on your car will be eaten into and the bird droppings will begin to mix with the wax almost bonding the two together.
When the droppings are removes there is a foot print left by the droppings that is etched into the wax.
Depending on how hard your wax is will determine how hard it is to get rid of the droppings. At this point the hardness of the wax works against you.
Non wax products are not effected the same way. Generally non wax products do not provide a base for bird droppings to hold onto and they leave nothing for the droppings to blend with.
On a side note, Tree sap is a form of natural wax, this attribute helps it stick to the paint that is why it takes some effort to get it off your car.
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Old 05-29-2012, 06:47 AM #2
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[Ever wonder why bird droppings are so hard to remove the longer they sit on your car?]
The longer the acid is allowed to sit on a surface the more time it has to permeate the paint protection and the clear coat. Reactivity - when you have an acid + moisture +oxygen + ozone all of which equates to a highly concentrated acidic solution, add heat (reactivity) to this equation, and you have the causes of pitting, a concave indentation on the paint surface. Heat and water act as a catalyst (reactivity); a vehicle paint surface temperature of >90.oF creates a very aggressive reactivity of the Alkaline, Uric Acid and Ammonia. This will cause surface etching, so they should be removed without delay. In this case, paint care not only serves aesthetics, but also helps preserve the vehicles.
[Most natural wax used in automotive products comes from trees, A popular type is carnuaba. People like it because of it's ability to get rock hard.
These hard waxes offer a small degree of protection over softer waxes]
A hard or soft wax have the same resistance to acidic bird excrement...very limited
[Generally non wax products do not provide a base for bird droppings to hold onto and they leave nothing for the droppings to blend with]
The acid permeates the polymer sealant and etches the clear coat it doesn't need a 'base' to hold onto
Be cognizant that there are no polymers, nanotechnology coatings or waxes that are acid-proof; they all only offer short-term resistance. The most pertinent factor is to have a layer of (sacrificial) protection between the acid and your paint surface. The second is to ensure that is removed and any residue is neutralized as soon as possible.
For added protection apply an organic wax over the polymer sealant, as this acts as a sacrificial barrier and by washing the vehicles paint surface plus the reapplication of the sacrificial barrier on a regular basis.
“Bird Excrement” - [
www.autopia.org]#
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Old 05-30-2012, 03:49 AM #3
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Good information about acids. TOGWT
However automotive paint is not effected by bird droppings like wax.
It takes a different type of acid to etch into paint.
As we know there are acids we come into contact with every day, mostly in our foods. Our systems are designed to handle these acids. Hot sauce and soda pop are two common ones.
The point is, all acids do not have the same effect on all materials, even acids that are considered extremely corrosive may have no effect on certain materials. Glass is one material acids are stored in because of it's resistance to acidic corrosion
Car manufactures have known about bird droppings for years, longer than they have known about UV rays. Modern automotive paint is designed to cope with those elements it commonly comes in contact with.
If you want to etch into paint, a couple of ways are to drop a egg on it or pour some brake fluid on it, now you got acid that will effect paint and clear coat.
You cannot protect wax with more wax, You will just end up with a harder job of cleaning when the acid begins to eat into the wax.
The more layers of wax you have on a car, the deeper the etchings can go.
As for autopia.org, I don't consider them a credible source of information as they are known for:
1. Banning members who don't agree with their conclusions
2. Spreading bias and misleading information.
3. A history of infecting computers with malware and spyware.
I value your input but I don't waste my time on autopia anymore. I would never recommend it to anyone I was honestly trying to help.
Last edited by sidwynder; 05-30-2012 at 04:15 AM.
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Old 05-30-2012, 05:58 AM #4
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Bird excrement consits of Uric acid , C5H4N4O3 [a diprotic acid , thus in strong alkali at high pH it forms the dually charged full urate ion, but at biological pH or in the presence of carbonic acid or carbonate ions it forms the singly charged hydrogen or acid urate ion as its pKa2 is greater than the pKa1 of carbonic acid.
And your hypothesis is that paint and or wax is resistant to these acids?
There are no polymers (inc clear coat paint), nanotechnology coatings or waxes that are acid-proof; they all only offer short-term resistance.
[The more layers of wax you have on a car, the deeper the etchings can go]
This statement doesn't make any sense and there is absolutely no scientific basis for it
Autopia changed hands some years ago and is under a totally different management. The original owner David Byron sold all rights to it to 3D .I have my own section (TOGWT® Autopia Detailing Wiki - [
www.autopia.org]) within this forum
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Old 05-30-2012, 11:16 PM #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TOGWT View Post
And your hypothesis is that paint and or wax is resistant to these acids?
There are no polymers (inc clear coat paint), nanotechnology coatings or waxes that are acid-proof; they all only offer short-term resistance.
[The more layers of wax you have on a car, the deeper the etchings can go]
This statement doesn't make any sense and there is absolutely no scientific basis for it
Automotive acrylic paint is basically plastic. Plastic is used as a container for several corrosive acids, You can verify this at your local hardware or just look at the battery in your car, It has a plastic case and it is filled with acid.
As I said before, different materials have different reactions to acids, all acids do not have the same effect on all materials.
Paint is not effected by bird droppings like wax is.
Just as paint is not effected by soap like wax.
As far as scientific basis for the layer statement.
It makes sense to anyone who will take the time to reason.
The foundation for that observation is the fact that when layers build up on a surface they increase depth. The deeper the wax layers the deeper the acid is able to eat into it.
The depth of the wax is negligible but it becomes thicker as it it layered on, making a stronger foundation for the acid to blend into.
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Old 05-31-2012, 06:35 AM #6
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"There is no such thing as a stupid question, only stupid answers" - Anon
You obviously have far more experience than i do, so I'll give way to your superior knowledge of waxes, polymers and acids
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Old 05-31-2012, 09:04 PM #7
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Quote:
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"There is no such thing as a stupid question, only stupid answers" - Anon
You obviously have far more experience than i do, so I'll give way to your superior knowledge of waxes, polymers and acids
I don't know the extent of your knowledge. I am not trying to challenge it, as I said I value your input.
I am pointing out basic errors in your theory about acids.
I don't profess to know everything and I don't know anyone who does.
I do know what I am talking about when it comes to bird droppings on natural wax and acrylic paint.
This is ment to be a sharing of information, between interested minds. You don't have to agree but you could put it to the test and see for yourself.
As for the comment from the new guy Pepe
At minimum a 6th grade reading comprehension level is necessary to understand what is being said here. Judging by your comment you have not reached that level of reading ability. There is an intellectual gap here that you are ill equiped to cross and It is pointless to try to communicate with you on your level. Goodby.
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Old 05-31-2012, 09:34 PM #8
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What is your guys professional take on "Perma Plate"? Any good? Reasons?
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Old 05-31-2012, 10:11 PM #9
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What is your guys professional take on "Perma Plate"? Any good? Reasons?
I am not familiar with perma plate.
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Old 06-01-2012, 09:04 AM #10
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Quote:
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What is your guys professional take on "Perma Plate"? Any good? Reasons?
Lifetime Paint Protection
Xzilon, Simonize, Perma-Plate, DuPont PTFE™, are a few examples of this type of product.
There is no polymer, synthetic or natural wax, or after-market product available that can provide a five year or lifetime protection to a paint film surface; read the fine print in the contract offered by car dealerships. PPG / Mercedes-Benz invested a lot of money in R&D for their nanotechnology 'CeramiClear' coating that is considered the longest lasting automotive coating to-date, but there is no 'lifetime' warranty given
There is normally a clause that states you should return the vehicle for a "maintenance" application of the product (at 3 or 6 months intervals) failing to do this will void your warranty or the fine print will basically exclude every condition you could claim against
The primary protection provided for a modern water-based colour coat is a polythene paint that has a thickness of (127 - 178 µ) comprise a Primer coat of 2Mils (50 µ) a Colour coat of 1-2Mils (25 -50 µ) and Clear coat 2-3Mils (50 - 75 µ) An applied paint protection product is the entire barrier that provides protection for automotive paintwork besides the clear coat paint and this renewable barrier is probably less than 0.001Mil (0.0254 µm)
While it’s true that a polymer paints melting point is 350oF +, it is still subject to evaporation and erosion by the elements and vehicle washing. However its durability is approximately five or six months.
The technology for a lifetime protection for a vehicles paint film surface does not currently exist. Most dealerships rely on the fact that few customers read the fine print on the contract; it usually states that it must be reapplied every 6 months and every 3 months on darker coloured cars (for which a service charge will apply).
While it will not provide ‘lifetime’ protection Optimum Polymer Technologies Opti-Coat™ has been applied and tested with a real life durability of ~ 3 years. This semi-permanent coating pre- polymer resin cross links and forms a continuous film on the surfaces, it also contains ultra violet (UV) protection.
Its application is similar to that of a single component Isocyanate in that it forms an approx 50-76µ thickness clear coat finish.
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Old 06-01-2012, 11:02 AM #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TOGWT View Post
"There is no such thing as a stupid question, only stupid answers" - Anon
You obviously have far more experience than i do, so I'll give way to your superior knowledge of waxes, polymers and acids
"People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones." - Anon
Maybe he does have more knowledge than you, considering you've been caught red-handed plagiarizing the majority of your content:
TOWGT = Bad Buyer
You were banned on other forums for this, a simple search will yield such info.
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/10/2012 01:30PM by detailer.