I recently found a 1968 GTO with a 428 engine.I haven't been able to find hardly any information from any source other than word of mouth;and that only from a very few sources. No-one seems to even recognize that Pontiac ever produced a 428. I have access to more of these engines and would like to know more about them.None of the GTO sites I've visited have any reference to the 428.

The GTO did not come with a 428 because of the ban GM sent down to the divisions on 400ci or less on there intermediate sized cars. In 1970 this ban was lifted and thats when you saw the 454 in the chevelle ss, the 455 in the Buicks Pontiacs and Olds muscle cars. Some dealerships had an option to swap the 389 to a 421 from 1964-1966 GTO's. In 1967 these same dealerships offered to swap the 400 to the 428. That is just alittle background. It is possible your car has a 428 but it is unlikley that it came from the dealership that way and if it did dont let go of that car. Hope this info can help. Sincerly Lance, by the way even if the car came from the dealer with a 421 or 428 the only way to prove it is if you have the PHS documentation on it.

The documentation was under the passenger seat and according to the paperwork,it did come from the factory with the 428.Also,i dont know if it matters or means anything,but the grill also has the 428 emblem factory installed.Please let me know if that has a bearing on the car value.

No GTOs came from the factory with 428s.

The emblem was most likely added when the engine was replaced.

I'd like to see the build sheet. Some people were able to pull strings and get cars built, but this would be highly unlikely on a '68 GTO. Maybe it's a Royale Bobcat and it came from the dealer with a 428, not from the factory.

I would agree about the bobcat,,,And no there was no gto w/a 428
Ive done research on gto's for a long time.Also deal alot With P,H,S
the 68 gto only came with the 400 nothing else And ive never seen any info about a transplanted 428 for a gto,



travis williams

Bill W,

I never received the faxed copy of the build sheet. Is the car bogus?

say could you please tell me.....what does gto stand for....grand touring????



thanks
lemans



lemans

Gran Turismo Omologato

no.and thats kind of insulting.im having a problem finding the sheet.i just moved and nothing is where it should be.however,if you dont have the time or patience to wait for it,think what you like.

Gran Turismo Omilingato.Not 100% sure on the spelling of the last but its close.Stands for Luxury touring sports car.

I found this tid-bit of information:

<P><FONT SIZE="3">What's a Royal Bobcat?
<P><FONT SIZE="3">_____________________
<P><FONT SIZE="3">Royal Pontiac was a dealership located in Royal Oak, Michigan. Founded by dragracer Ace Wilson, Royal Pontiac began making modifications to Pontiacs back in 1959, and selling these cars to customers. As Royal's popularity grew, the modifications they performed took on a name: "Bobcat". In 1961, Royal removed the individual "Pontiac" letters from the tail panel of a 62 Catalina, and used "CAT" from Catalina, the "O" from Pontiac, and the small and large "B" from "Bonneville" to spell out "BOB CAT". A legend was born when Motor Trend tested this car in their 9/99 issue.
<P><FONT SIZE="3">When GM pulled out of racing in 1963, Royal Pontiac saw a great opportunity to modify and tune Pontiacs on a larger scale for their customers. In 1964, Royal began performing their famous supertune to new 64 GTO's. Already the most powerful car in the mid-size line, Royal's Bobcat GTO's was now gaining a strong reputation on the streets in and around Detroit. Car and Driver tested a pair of 64 GTO's for their famous "Ferrari GTO vs. Pontiac GTO" test in March 1964. This one test was by far the most controversial road test of the 60's, and changed Car &amp; Driver's image forever. The shear audacity of comparing the legendary Ferrari GTO to an American 4 passenger car sent shock waves through the industry, and subsequently put the Pontiac GTO on the map. There were two GTO's tested, and both were modified by Royal. The exposure Royal Pontiac obtained through this one article was priceless. Oddly enough, all the hoopla about this one road test was somewhat overblown. The Ferrari wasn't even present for the road test. During 1964 and 1965, the GTO dominated automotive magazines. Royal Pontiac seemed to always get a mention in these articles, whether they had modified the test car or not.
<P><FONT SIZE="3">
<P><FONT SIZE="3">There were three distinct levels of modifications that Royal Pontiac performed for a customer.
<P><FONT SIZE="3">
<OL>
<LI><FONT SIZE="3">The Royal Bobcat "kit" could be ordered through the mail by any enthusiast. It consisted of a large box containing thinner head gaskets, blocked heat riser intake gaskets, distributor recurve kit, larger jets for the carb(s), rocker arm locknuts, colder spark plugs (Champion J10Y), and the necessary gaskets (valve cover, valley pan) to perform the modification. It also included Royal Racing Team club decals, Royal Bobcat body stickers, a "GR-RRR" lisence plate, and "Royal Pontiac" license plate frames. This was a very popular kit in the mid to late 60's.
</OL>
<OL>
<LI><FONT SIZE="3">This was a car prepared and sold through Royal Pontiac. The Royal Bobcat kit listed above was installed by Royal, but they went a little further by blueprinting, cc'ing, and milling the cylinder heads. The purpose of this was to have equal compression iand chamber volume in all 8 cylinders. In conjunction with the thinner head gaskets, this modification usually lifted compression well over 11 to 1. The valve springs were measured and shimmed so all 16 springs were at the exact same installed height. These mods were nothing extravagent, just simple blueprinting that Pontiac could not do in a mass produced car. Cars prepared and sold through Royal Pontiac were called "Royal Bobcat" cars, and had the special Royal Bobcat stickers applied by Royal.
<LI><FONT SIZE="3">This level is the most drastic, and subsequently, the most expensive. Before even taking delivery of the car, Royal would transplant a 421 tri-power (during the 64-66 era) into a GTO, and later, the 428 (67-69) in either the Firebird or GTO. Not many "transplant" cars were sold.
</OL>
<P><FONT SIZE="3">Jim Wangers talks quite a bit about the atmosphere in and around Royal Pontiac's service department in his wonderful book, "Glory Days". It seems surreal now, but imagine groups of street racing kids just hanging around Royal's service department just wanting to see and feel the Royal mystique. In those days, cars were not simply transportation, they were a way of life. Most of Royal's notoriety came from extensive coverage in major magazines, but in and around Woodward Ave., they're famous supertunes were downright legendary.
<P><FONT SIZE="3">When a manufacturer gives a car to magazine to test, they naturally want it to perform at its' best. If it didn't, once the article hit the newsstands, there wasn't much a manufacturer could do about it. Naturally, the fit and finish of the overall test car was checked out (usually) before handing it over to a magazine. But mechanically, the old "give it a once over" was about all that was done to assure that the car would run satisfactorily. But in the Pontiac world, whose very image was that of pure performance, the mechanical side of the car needed to be perfect. This is where Royal Pontiac came into the picture. Not every Pontiac tested went through Royal, but if it did, you could be assured whether it had a Bobcat kit on it or not, it was going to run well.
<P><FONT SIZE="3">One thing that is certain, and that is if a car was tuned by Royal before a road test, that information was disclosed up front to the magazine. There were no "ringers" given to magazines. That could not be said of other manufacturers, who frequently snuck "ringers" into road tests (most notably Ford) in hopes of getting a good review. As the 60's wore on, it was more and more common for a manufacturer to supertune a car before given it to a magazine. This usually involved the car being sent a factory tech center, and everything was checked and re-checked so it was in razor sharp tune. The competition was extremely fierce among manufacturers when it came to &frac14; miles times in road tests. The best reviews obviously garnered the greatest sales, not to mention bragging rights, and everyone was gunning for the mighty GTO from 1964-1966. For a dragstrip test, it was not uncommon for a manufacturer to send their test car to their own tech center to have an advance curve kit installed, a stronger clutch, or in extreme cases, a complete engine blueprint. Sometimes items on the chassis were changed depending on the type of test that was to be conducted. This was touchy subject amongst the manufacturers, especially in a head-tohead comparison test between different manufacturers. Sometimes the magazine testers would catch them on a few points, and state in the article that this particular car "was a quite a bit quicker than the one we tested with the same engine last year." Occasionally, a manufacturer would send a "lightweight" version of their car, innocently absent of sound deadener, and equipped with the most basic features to save weight. While these types of cars generated great &frac14; mile times, they were often chastised by magazine testers for being noisy, rattly cars, and not much fun to drive around on the street. So the war was on, all started by Royal Pontiac's well-known preparation of Pontiacs. It was a vicious game when it came to combating the industry leading GTO, and sometimes manufacturers would show no restraint in order to topple the king.
<P><FONT SIZE="3">Who are these guys?
<P><FONT SIZE="3">__________________

UGHHHH!!! I now know that html does not work in posts. Sorry!

I don't know if you're trying to defend this guy or what, but there is a big difference between a Royal Bobcat with a 428 installed and a FACTORY installed 428. Both would be extremely rare cars IF documented. Especially the latter since it is a "one of none".

Funny how this guy gets defensive when questioned and then "can't find" the build sheet.

I really appreciate all the information.I have been killing myself trying to get information on my car.Its slow going but all input is helpful.This has been the most complete history ive come across.

I have no agenda. I just recalled this thread when I was browsing this morning and read the information I posted earlier. I am very new to GTOs and have lots to learn, so if what I posted is not appropriate, I am sorry.

Bill,

I didn't mean to offend you with my comments, I just wanted to know if it was a real 428 car? It would be the only one I have ever heard of and would truly be one of a kind. You mentioned that the build sheet was under the seat, what was written on the build sheet to indicate the 428? Thanks.

Tim

You could only get your GTO bobcated with a 428 from a dealer not from the factory.

I like the 428 and to does not matter if it matches the numbers or not. I think it achieved almost 390HP in 1969.



Petr Divis

i thought this was very interesting,and wondered what ever happened here....
did the guy get the car?
did it really have a 428?
come up with any kind of paperwork?
where do you find a 428 pontiac motor anyways?
an old catalina,or pariasenne?
just curious....is it a better motor to hop up,or too expensive?

and i thought the royal article posted was Very interesting,and hope that more good stuff like that was posted.
thanx for the stories.(thanx Bruce)

just to throw in my .02
heres a good story,its true,and has a sad ending..

one of my aquaintances had a 389 tripower motor.swore it came out of his gto.
he held onto it for a long time,
finally gave it to his kid,who promptly stuck a 4bbl intake on it,and then into an olds cutlass..an 82 at that.
there it sat,with a little tinkering,for a LOOOONG time..finally,me and the Rickster came over one day,and it was running!
smiles everywhere....revving it up,scaring all the neighbors..no exhaust..indeed,none.just manifolds.
but i knew that the mechanical gremlins lived in this house..
after all,they had tried to sell my buddy a cracked block,a intake with no threads left in the carb holes,etc etc.the list is endless.

so,when i got under the hood,and listened to it,i was`nt too surprised at what i heard.
knocking....yep..so i told him..
his dad,supreme commander of the yard,sat there and said..its got high compression pistons (12-1--lmao) and a cam etc etc,and its running on cheap gas..
its got a knock i said.
no way,he said.
so,i got them to stop revving the piss out of it,and let it run at idle
the carb was screwed,no idle..so,i got back under there and ran the carb.
let it run at idle..and you could hear the rods knocking..deep knock too.
aww,thats the torque convertor dad said...
i went into the shed,came out with a broom,unscrewed the handle..
stuck it to the head....other end in my ear.then handed it to him..listen........
the son did..and he heard it.
dad still insisted i was not only wrong,but an idiot to boot.
convinced i was lost in the land of loonies,i told him to shut the car off.
waited a minute,while they all sat there trying to figure out anything but what i had said was true.
then pulled the dipstick and showed him that not only did it knock,but it had water in the oil too.
dad said,well,its a 389 with a different intake,and the ports probably dont match up and yaddah yaddah yaddah...
the words all trailed off as i walked away and left with my buddy in his stang...
i heard that they sold that motor,trans,car,rims tires and all for 500 bux.
wonder what was worth the most.



one mans junk,is another mans treasure

Enjoyed all the stories. I checked in here last week about timing marks on a freinds GTO. You all were very helpful. I can see you guys eat, sleep, drink and love your Goats. Think I might get me one. Had a '68 LeMans and a '67 Tempest. Thanks, Clarence.

When I bought my 67 goat, it had a 428 engine with a 1965 tri-power installed. Obviously that is all wrong. My 428 engine came from a 1969 car, probably one of the big Pontiacs, maybe even a police cruiser. However, the unique thing about the 428 block is that is actually says 428 on the side of the block near the freeze plugs. Its big so you can't miss it. As most have said, goats never had them. Royal Pontiac did engine swaps as previously stated, and I remember reading about 2 other GM dealerships also doing engine swaps with the blessing of GM, so they carried warranties. If it's not documented with a dealer invoice, it makes no difference if it was your long lost uncle or the dealer that did the swap. I just installed a correctly dated 400 engine in my 67 goat. I kept the 428 for a later rebuild. The extra 28 cubes obviously will provide more torque, and if you stroke it with parts available from suppliers, I believe you can get near 500 c.i. displacement, and gobs of torque. If you don't know, the pontiac block has the date code as well as the casting number at the back of the block near the dristributor hole. It will even tell you if it was made during the day or night shift, and what time of day or night it was cast. Kind of neat trivia if you don't have anything better to do.

Mike Garoust
67 GTO post coupe
69 Corvette roadster 427

If you stroke a 421/428, you're missing the point. The main reason these engines are so desirable is because of their crankshaft. The 4.00 stroke is what sets them apart. In a nutshell, this allows them to rev higher than 455s (4.12" stroke) while making more torque than the 389/400 (3.75).

Ooops - that should read 4.21" stroke for the 455...

WHO CARES go back to CANADA .............



travis williams

because the 428 is a big car motor Catalina Bont, etc not a GTO . not even in canada its a bobcat not a GTO. and if it is a real GTO it wont have 428! even in canada it will have a 400 w a turbo 400 or a muncie 4 spd understand people, ive been working with PHS
for year's Ive seen paper work on a lot of gto's and none hade a 428 people up in the offices wouldnt let any motor other than a 400 for a 68 gto not the 350 not a 421 or a 428 that was made for only two years
I dont care what you say it's not orig, nore is it a true GTO if this is a stock motor .BS, the bobcat isnt even close to a GTO for one the bobcat is worth by far more money...And people here in the states have been buying them up. If it sounds like a duck looks like a duck must be a duck. If this is a orig car you have one in a million right,,, I know for sure there was no 68 gto with a 428 send in your money to PHS and find out your self.$35.00 wow that will end this stupid question .. Travis Williams the pontiac guy
@Ed Williams Machine Boardman,oregon



travis williams

and dealerships never swaped the 400 for the 428 never what you think pontiac had there own Nickeys Yenkos copos etc..try againe didnt happen
LOL and they didnt put a band on 400 ci ,. john Delorian wasnt going to let a sml horse power 350ci motor and a weak 350 hydromatic tranny go into his new design in 1968 gto he wasn't go'ing to let any motor but the 400 put in his gto's either it had a400 turbo hydromatic or it had a
M-21 m-22 rockcrusher muncie that is it for 68..if you didnt want that they had there tempest custom w/350w350 hydromatic also was available has a 400 w/turbo 400turbo hydromatic that came stock with disc brakes closest thing you could get to the gto with out the gto name 3509 convert's were built in 68 more than half had the 400/option factory my tempest custom ive been trying to sell has this very option,,basicly a gto but didnt have buckets nore floor mounted tranny they are all on the column, interior changed patterns also, 68 gto was available with bench seat and column shifter from the factory not many were made none with ram air or HO.
the ones ive seen are convertable's,.w/400.& turbo 400 w 2bbl ys code block but they are out there far from few any more
the pontiac guy



travis williams

I'm a new owner of a 1968 GTO, could anyone give me a good email, phone numbers, etc. for parts, accessories, etc.

Thanks

The 428 engines were found in the Bonnevilles, their were a few states in the south IE: South Carolina that used them for state police cars. Those were RATED AT 425BHP WITH A SINGLE FOUR BARRELL CARB. This information was retrieved from a friends auto repair books many years ago.

I am quite curious about the build sheet on the car and if it has the notifaction on it that says notify engineering up on compleation. I only ask this as I ran upon a 1971 Lemans that was a 455Ho 4spd with honeycomb wheels A/C P/S and P/B. This was part of a deal when a friend of mine sold his 64 GTO. the car was sold at Leo Jarnigan Pontiac in Dallas Texas to Mike Minor Who lives in Azel Texas in 1971.
Although Henry has passed on to the great gig in the sky. It was thru Mike Minor that we got a history on the car. When Henry got it, it had a 455 W/a automatic in it and it was in terrible shape. We restored the car with the 455 with the automatic and later sold it.
About a year later Henry got a call from some people in Detroit who had got hold of the car. They asked a great deal of questions about the car and if he knew where the original motor and trans might be. He directed them to Mike Minor who still had the orignal Mtr and trans.
All I know is that the car has had a restoration back to orignal specs with the correct mtr and trans and now resides in a museium in Detroit. Weather it was a magazine test car in 1971 or simply a test car for pontiac I have no clue. However it was a rare car as to the fact it is a 455HO 4/spd with all the comforts.
Wally G.