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What has happened to my paint? (PIC)
Posted by Brian Harris
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What has happened to my paint? (PIC) September 23, 2003 02:45AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 4 |
<HTML>Under the first month of my new car, I had spotted two spots cracking on the roof with one having chips. I had always been washing my car nearly every weekend. It got worse, but something different. My dealer isn't open on the weekends, so it took time to get it in about the chips, and in that time I didn't wash it because I was worrying about changing how the chips originally appeared.
So the car had a bit of dirt on it. I took it to them and the service print out luckily said a paint appointment is to be scheduled, so they were going to fix it. They also had washed the car. I noticed right away some whitish looking spots across the car from hood to back. I thought they might have been soap spots or something. I went to get it washed pretty soon and to my suprise, the spots were still there. Looking closer they felt like they are above the paint, clear, and many minature cracks in it like a dry lake bed. Scratching didn't budge it, nor did tar and sap remover. I did spot a similar make on my window, but it came off easily.
Well, they are more and more appearing, and maybe 3 times as much on the paint in the begining, the car is only a little over a year old, 7700miles on it.
I had taken the car in for oil changes, but didn't have tiem to bother about the paint. I finally got aroudn to it nearly a year later (I'm freaking lazy, and with my swing shift and a bed time of 4am, it's hard to get up at 7:30am to get it in, and again not open on weekends) THis time right away (a new staff) they blamed the chps on bird crap, while before it was going to be painted, and they don't keep records that long. Luckily I saved it, but didn't have it there. Then they said the other spots were from a chemical as they said it's eaten into the clear coat, and they found a spot on plastic at the windshield wiper area. They used that to say it's not a defect but an outside source. Well, how does a chemical or acid that is need to hurt the clear coat get spread evenly across the car with no splash pattern or one on he side.
It looks to be like sap, as two weeks later today the same looking spots are now on the windows again. What kind of paint job can be so weak to have this happen so quickly to a car that was being washed as much as possible, it's my first can and I had great pride in it, now it looks like crap.
Here is a large image with pics stitched togethor:
[pages.sbcglobal.net]
You'll see the spots on the window, hood and the chip on the roof. They seem to turn a brown color recently, but wash off the spots most of the time.
What does this look like to you guys</HTML>
So the car had a bit of dirt on it. I took it to them and the service print out luckily said a paint appointment is to be scheduled, so they were going to fix it. They also had washed the car. I noticed right away some whitish looking spots across the car from hood to back. I thought they might have been soap spots or something. I went to get it washed pretty soon and to my suprise, the spots were still there. Looking closer they felt like they are above the paint, clear, and many minature cracks in it like a dry lake bed. Scratching didn't budge it, nor did tar and sap remover. I did spot a similar make on my window, but it came off easily.
Well, they are more and more appearing, and maybe 3 times as much on the paint in the begining, the car is only a little over a year old, 7700miles on it.
I had taken the car in for oil changes, but didn't have tiem to bother about the paint. I finally got aroudn to it nearly a year later (I'm freaking lazy, and with my swing shift and a bed time of 4am, it's hard to get up at 7:30am to get it in, and again not open on weekends) THis time right away (a new staff) they blamed the chps on bird crap, while before it was going to be painted, and they don't keep records that long. Luckily I saved it, but didn't have it there. Then they said the other spots were from a chemical as they said it's eaten into the clear coat, and they found a spot on plastic at the windshield wiper area. They used that to say it's not a defect but an outside source. Well, how does a chemical or acid that is need to hurt the clear coat get spread evenly across the car with no splash pattern or one on he side.
It looks to be like sap, as two weeks later today the same looking spots are now on the windows again. What kind of paint job can be so weak to have this happen so quickly to a car that was being washed as much as possible, it's my first can and I had great pride in it, now it looks like crap.
Here is a large image with pics stitched togethor:
[pages.sbcglobal.net]
You'll see the spots on the window, hood and the chip on the roof. They seem to turn a brown color recently, but wash off the spots most of the time.
What does this look like to you guys</HTML>
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Re: Oh, I forgot the car model September 23, 2003 02:49AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 4 |
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Re: Oh, I forgot the car model September 23, 2003 03:45AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 751 |
<HTML>Brian, man does tht look bad .
Its always hard to judge from pictures as to what the exact cause of the problem is but here are my thoughts.
The light colored etching looks very much like acid rain marks to me. The deposits left behind from when the rain dries out actually eat in to the clearcoat and leave those light colored patches. Once the damage is done, you can wash it as many times as you like but those marks wont come out as they are not stains but actual damage to the clearcoat. The only way to resolve this problem is to have the vehicle surface properly cleaned and neutralized by a professional detailer. Once cleaned and neutralized then the cleacoat will need to be buffed to remove the etching. You have to be careful as to how much of the cearcoat is buffed as taking too much off will lead to premature clear coat failure. Once this is done I would strongly suggest getting a very good paint sealant on there .
The brown marks could well be rail dust , these particles get embedded in the clearcoat and then start to rust over a period of time ( I could well be wrong here , and I have never seen rail dust as big as you have in the picture) . When you wash the vehicle you are only washing away the stain, not removing the particle that is embedded in the paint, so over a period of time the red/brown marks will reappear. Again, this is something you will need to take to a professional detailer to have repaired. The surface will have to be neutralized and then clay bar'd .
My advice to you would be to find a good detailer in your area and have him do this for you. It will be worth the investment to protect your finish.
Some questions for you.
1/ Did you buy a protection package from the dealer where you purchased the car ? If so, take it back and get it done under warrnty.
2/ What kind of warranty is there on the vehicle ? Ford dealers will remove rail dust from vehicles under warranty , Hyundai have a technical service buletin you can reas at [www.autoint.com]
that will give you some more information, but reading that it looks like they do not do rail dust removal under warranty, but according to that they shpuld have looked for it when the vehicle arrived at the dealership.
3/ What city do you live in ? Perhaps someone on this forum can point you to a good detailer in your area.
Good luck.
Jim.</HTML>
Its always hard to judge from pictures as to what the exact cause of the problem is but here are my thoughts.
The light colored etching looks very much like acid rain marks to me. The deposits left behind from when the rain dries out actually eat in to the clearcoat and leave those light colored patches. Once the damage is done, you can wash it as many times as you like but those marks wont come out as they are not stains but actual damage to the clearcoat. The only way to resolve this problem is to have the vehicle surface properly cleaned and neutralized by a professional detailer. Once cleaned and neutralized then the cleacoat will need to be buffed to remove the etching. You have to be careful as to how much of the cearcoat is buffed as taking too much off will lead to premature clear coat failure. Once this is done I would strongly suggest getting a very good paint sealant on there .
The brown marks could well be rail dust , these particles get embedded in the clearcoat and then start to rust over a period of time ( I could well be wrong here , and I have never seen rail dust as big as you have in the picture) . When you wash the vehicle you are only washing away the stain, not removing the particle that is embedded in the paint, so over a period of time the red/brown marks will reappear. Again, this is something you will need to take to a professional detailer to have repaired. The surface will have to be neutralized and then clay bar'd .
My advice to you would be to find a good detailer in your area and have him do this for you. It will be worth the investment to protect your finish.
Some questions for you.
1/ Did you buy a protection package from the dealer where you purchased the car ? If so, take it back and get it done under warrnty.
2/ What kind of warranty is there on the vehicle ? Ford dealers will remove rail dust from vehicles under warranty , Hyundai have a technical service buletin you can reas at [www.autoint.com]
that will give you some more information, but reading that it looks like they do not do rail dust removal under warranty, but according to that they shpuld have looked for it when the vehicle arrived at the dealership.
3/ What city do you live in ? Perhaps someone on this forum can point you to a good detailer in your area.
Good luck.
Jim.</HTML>
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Re: Oh, I forgot the car model September 23, 2003 04:12AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 4 |
<HTML>I live in Modesto California. Someone mentioned the rail dust before in another forum. I can rub most the brown stuff off with my finger and liquid, but even after a wash, some still look a little discolored and they get worse again over time. Acid rain, i don't think there has been something like that here and I don't think there was any rain within the time it originally happened. But I can see closely new spots on the windows look just about the same on the paint. Though, there are too many spots to tell when there are any new ones there.
The warranty for paint is 3years/36,000 miles. I'll check out that link you just posted. The dealer mentioned somethign to do, I think it was sand blasting to remove the clear coat down enough to clear it, with hope it hasn't gotten to the primer.
How much does that stuff cost to do that you mentioned. I'm 22 and went on the limb to afford a new car with a great warranty so that I wouldn't have to worry about huge repairs like with a used car. This is really fustrating. My co-worker also parks in the same spot with his new GMC truck for a couple years and nothing like this has happened to him and my dad even works there and parks on the side where the trees are large enough to cover the entire car and that Tarus hasn't had anything like this over the 5 years he has had it. I also always parked it in a covered spot the day I got it at home. I haven't gone anywhere special in the last two weeks to cause the new spots on the windows, and even though I do park sometimes under trees at home, this is a new place and it originall happened at my old place that I always used the covered spot. Oh, my Olds 1977 88 was parked there too for nearly two years at work without this problem. I'm keeping an eye on other parked cars to see if I see something similar. Withen another year his thing will get really bad if they keep appearing.
I just have real bad luck. Even the covered spot at the first place caused one side of the card to have hardwater by their bad sprinkler system. Then I lucked out months ago when a huge branch landed a foot from my car, that was close.</HTML>
The warranty for paint is 3years/36,000 miles. I'll check out that link you just posted. The dealer mentioned somethign to do, I think it was sand blasting to remove the clear coat down enough to clear it, with hope it hasn't gotten to the primer.
How much does that stuff cost to do that you mentioned. I'm 22 and went on the limb to afford a new car with a great warranty so that I wouldn't have to worry about huge repairs like with a used car. This is really fustrating. My co-worker also parks in the same spot with his new GMC truck for a couple years and nothing like this has happened to him and my dad even works there and parks on the side where the trees are large enough to cover the entire car and that Tarus hasn't had anything like this over the 5 years he has had it. I also always parked it in a covered spot the day I got it at home. I haven't gone anywhere special in the last two weeks to cause the new spots on the windows, and even though I do park sometimes under trees at home, this is a new place and it originall happened at my old place that I always used the covered spot. Oh, my Olds 1977 88 was parked there too for nearly two years at work without this problem. I'm keeping an eye on other parked cars to see if I see something similar. Withen another year his thing will get really bad if they keep appearing.
I just have real bad luck. Even the covered spot at the first place caused one side of the card to have hardwater by their bad sprinkler system. Then I lucked out months ago when a huge branch landed a foot from my car, that was close.</HTML>
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Re: Oh, I forgot the car model September 25, 2003 12:37AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 137 |
<HTML>Brian,
Boy, I've never seen anything like this. Of course I live in Michigan and we don't get much fallout or acid rain up here. My first thought was you were parking under some type of tree that was leaking on it, but you cleared that up. It sure looks like bird droppings but since other cars around you haven't had damage that doesn't make sense either. Have you thought about vandalism? Maybe you should contact your insurance agent.
Sorry I can't help more.
jer</HTML>
Boy, I've never seen anything like this. Of course I live in Michigan and we don't get much fallout or acid rain up here. My first thought was you were parking under some type of tree that was leaking on it, but you cleared that up. It sure looks like bird droppings but since other cars around you haven't had damage that doesn't make sense either. Have you thought about vandalism? Maybe you should contact your insurance agent.
Sorry I can't help more.
jer</HTML>
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Re: Oh, I forgot the car model September 28, 2003 04:34AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 435 |
<HTML>Brian, I wanted to let you know I live in Central Floirda in Titusville and had an 02 Elantra just like yours with the exact problem. Eventually those little spots began to crack and looked like the paint had been struck by rocks. I know they had not since I am the only driver. I also paint so I painted an area. I sanded past the factory paint and replaced with standox. That area did not crack again. These little spots you write about just seemed to pop anywhere and for no reason. I have since traded my car and will never buy another Hyundai. Before I traded though I used a paint gauge...less than 4 mill. There is a reason these cars are cheap. When I traded, one of the reasons this car was so low on value was the paint problems associated with them.
I have no trees in my yard, I washed regular and I even had paint sealant on it. No help whatsoever. The problem came from Korea. Good luck.</HTML>
I have no trees in my yard, I washed regular and I even had paint sealant on it. No help whatsoever. The problem came from Korea. Good luck.</HTML>
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Re: Oh, I forgot the car model September 28, 2003 06:46AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 56 |
<HTML>Now that you've metnioned it Phil, I'll add some comments of my own to the same end. First of all, it sounds like the problem could be a condition known as "solvent pop". It occurs if there's poor surface prep during the painting process. Stuff like not tacking or cleaning between coats. It's caused when paint which hasn't fully dried or cured is clearcoated. The c/c seals everything in. but since the paint is still going through the chemical process and releasing solvents as it dries, the solvents work their way up to the surface & can't escape through the c/c. Eventually, it discolors the paint and causes the c/c to blister.
I saw this same problem on a couple of Hyundai's that did have some tree sap on them as well. I got the sap off fine, but I couldn't get those spots out to save my life. I tried every compound that I had. Even a little thinner. All to no avail.
I've done a lot of paint work at this one dealer that sells VW, Subaru, Mazda & Hyundai. The Hyundai paint is total crap compared to the others. I've done t/u's on cars (lease turn ins) that are just hammered with chips and they're only 2-3 years old. On the other hand, I've seen VW's & Mazdas the same age that need very little t/u. They use a much higher quality of paint. Subaru's are extremely high quality and very durable cars for the money. Among the best I've seen. Hyundai's are notorious for their paint problems and were even worse a few years ago. They had cars where entire panels were just peeling off in sheets. The problem is they use very low quality paint and they spray it on too thin. It's a known problem throughout the industry.
I've also worked on European cars that have junk paint on them too. One time, I was using my Cyclo to buff on a small scratch on the 1/4 panel of a Porsche and it ended up taking the paint off down to the primer!!! I ended up repainting the whole 1/4!!! Now, with a Cyclo, on any American car made within the last 20 years, I can lean on it all day and I won't damage the finish!!!
I've also worked on Ferrari's and I can tell you, I was not impressed with their paint quality, either. It wasn't real thin, but it wasn't too thick, either. Plus it was very brittle and could chip fairly easily.
The best paint I've seen is on Jaguars. They put it on super thick and heavy. Benz & BMW is almost as good. If I'm not mistaken, they all use Standox as their factory paint. American vehicles are excellent for the most part. They use very good quality paint and c/c's. But keep in mind that now that robots are painting the cars, they may be smoother than a human painter, but they also spray the paint & c/c as thinly as possible. Just enough to get coverage. So, the finish on most mass-produced cars is not as thick or "deep" as it used to be.
Good luck with your Hyundai. Just keep after the dealer until you get some action. You may also want to consider filing a claim under the lemon law (or at least threatening to) if you don't get any action.
Rod</HTML>
I saw this same problem on a couple of Hyundai's that did have some tree sap on them as well. I got the sap off fine, but I couldn't get those spots out to save my life. I tried every compound that I had. Even a little thinner. All to no avail.
I've done a lot of paint work at this one dealer that sells VW, Subaru, Mazda & Hyundai. The Hyundai paint is total crap compared to the others. I've done t/u's on cars (lease turn ins) that are just hammered with chips and they're only 2-3 years old. On the other hand, I've seen VW's & Mazdas the same age that need very little t/u. They use a much higher quality of paint. Subaru's are extremely high quality and very durable cars for the money. Among the best I've seen. Hyundai's are notorious for their paint problems and were even worse a few years ago. They had cars where entire panels were just peeling off in sheets. The problem is they use very low quality paint and they spray it on too thin. It's a known problem throughout the industry.
I've also worked on European cars that have junk paint on them too. One time, I was using my Cyclo to buff on a small scratch on the 1/4 panel of a Porsche and it ended up taking the paint off down to the primer!!! I ended up repainting the whole 1/4!!! Now, with a Cyclo, on any American car made within the last 20 years, I can lean on it all day and I won't damage the finish!!!
I've also worked on Ferrari's and I can tell you, I was not impressed with their paint quality, either. It wasn't real thin, but it wasn't too thick, either. Plus it was very brittle and could chip fairly easily.
The best paint I've seen is on Jaguars. They put it on super thick and heavy. Benz & BMW is almost as good. If I'm not mistaken, they all use Standox as their factory paint. American vehicles are excellent for the most part. They use very good quality paint and c/c's. But keep in mind that now that robots are painting the cars, they may be smoother than a human painter, but they also spray the paint & c/c as thinly as possible. Just enough to get coverage. So, the finish on most mass-produced cars is not as thick or "deep" as it used to be.
Good luck with your Hyundai. Just keep after the dealer until you get some action. You may also want to consider filing a claim under the lemon law (or at least threatening to) if you don't get any action.
Rod</HTML>
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Re: Oh, I forgot the car model September 28, 2003 03:39PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 435 |
<HTML>In Rod's last reply he mentioned lemon law and staying after dealer. In my state, the paint is not coverd by a lemon law, only safety matters and those have to be worked on three times in less than one year. Then, it is still a pain in my arse to recover squat. In my case, when I mentioned the paint problem to my dealer, he said he had never heard of a paint problem (sigh) and brushed me off. The little cars are the number one selling car in central florida becuase of the price.
I have since traded my car but I loved that little thing..gas mileage, nice pick-up etc. If I were going to keep it I would have either re-painted it myself and billed the dealer or had my insurance adjuster work with the dealer for results.
One final point; Before all of this happened, my sales persoan called me every month to check up and see if I was happy, when this started, I told him I was no longer an ally and would help spread the word about this problem. He no longer calls and through forums like this one and networking, I am spreading the word. Buyer beware. Paint is important, if you detail, check the paint thickness BEFORE you buy.</HTML>
I have since traded my car but I loved that little thing..gas mileage, nice pick-up etc. If I were going to keep it I would have either re-painted it myself and billed the dealer or had my insurance adjuster work with the dealer for results.
One final point; Before all of this happened, my sales persoan called me every month to check up and see if I was happy, when this started, I told him I was no longer an ally and would help spread the word about this problem. He no longer calls and through forums like this one and networking, I am spreading the word. Buyer beware. Paint is important, if you detail, check the paint thickness BEFORE you buy.</HTML>
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Re: Oh, I forgot the car model September 28, 2003 07:16PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 56 |
<HTML>Good Point, Phil!! You've obviously researched the lemon law aspect. I had no idea that it didn't apply to paint. Your other points are excellent and should be given serious consideration.
One other idea that came to mind...does Hyundai have area dealer service reps? I know the big 3 do and if you have a problem, you can contact your area rep and they are supposed to look into the problem. Since they work for the manufacturer and not the dealerships, they generally are more proactive and concerned about the reputation of their product than some of the dealers are.
Rod</HTML>
One other idea that came to mind...does Hyundai have area dealer service reps? I know the big 3 do and if you have a problem, you can contact your area rep and they are supposed to look into the problem. Since they work for the manufacturer and not the dealerships, they generally are more proactive and concerned about the reputation of their product than some of the dealers are.
Rod</HTML>
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Re: Oh, I forgot the car model September 29, 2003 07:49AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 4 |
<HTML>I'm going to take it to a paint shop for an opinion in the morning. I just got it washed and the windows are clean as can be. The spots are all clean again, no discolor. Standing away from the car you wouldn't know of the problem. Get close and you'll see it wit the right light making it pop out. But still can be seen easily when right on top of it.
So it's possible this is a poor paint job, with a chemical reaction going on as one possibilty because the clear coat was put on too soon. When what reaction goes on after the sap hits the car to cause raised crackled spots after washed away?
I was at the dealer to rotate the tires and change oil, only a small staff for the weekend so no experts around. I walked around the dealer while waiting. They had a used section that had eight 2002 Elantras, but not the GT model. They all had about 24k miles. None of them showed any signs off this, besides long light scratches here and there, and really bad swirl marks (they did have some dirt with patterns from dew or rain, so it could have been hidden if one did have a little problem). This is upsetting that their paint has lasted so well with 4 times the milage.
I'll get some new pics of the car when cleaned.
Thanx for the help so far. I'll print out these messages.</HTML>
So it's possible this is a poor paint job, with a chemical reaction going on as one possibilty because the clear coat was put on too soon. When what reaction goes on after the sap hits the car to cause raised crackled spots after washed away?
I was at the dealer to rotate the tires and change oil, only a small staff for the weekend so no experts around. I walked around the dealer while waiting. They had a used section that had eight 2002 Elantras, but not the GT model. They all had about 24k miles. None of them showed any signs off this, besides long light scratches here and there, and really bad swirl marks (they did have some dirt with patterns from dew or rain, so it could have been hidden if one did have a little problem). This is upsetting that their paint has lasted so well with 4 times the milage.
I'll get some new pics of the car when cleaned.
Thanx for the help so far. I'll print out these messages.</HTML>
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