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Faded Red Paint
Posted by darryl lewis
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Faded Red Paint October 19, 2003 04:22PM |
<HTML>Just got 95 izusu trooper the hood and top are sun faded light pinkish color now the sides are great client said trunk sat for a year then 4years at school with little to no care. I used 3-step on section with no luck beautiful gloss but still showing pink should I refer to paint shop or can we bring color to the paint thanks in advance.</HTML>
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Re: Faded Red Paint October 19, 2003 04:50PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 45 |
<HTML>I have successfully used Einszett products to restore red from pink.
Here is the link to where I made the purchase. Not only did they work..., but they are by far the EASIEST products to use!
[www.detailersparadise.com];
The "BEST of The BEST"
Here is the link to where I made the purchase. Not only did they work..., but they are by far the EASIEST products to use!
[www.detailersparadise.com];
The "BEST of The BEST"
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Re: Faded Red Paint October 19, 2003 05:08PM |
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Re: Faded Red Paint October 19, 2003 05:54PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 45 |
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Re: Faded Red Paint October 20, 2003 12:49AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Before we can give you any advise there are certain things we need to know:
1. Is it a clear coat or single stage paint? Did any red come off on the pad when you used the compound? Is so, it is single stage, if not a clear coat.
2. What tool did you use on the paint? High speed rotary buffer or orbital?
3. What pad did you use?
4. The compound you used what was it? Not brand name or product name the generic type of compound.
If you can answer these questions I can offer some objective advise.
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
1. Is it a clear coat or single stage paint? Did any red come off on the pad when you used the compound? Is so, it is single stage, if not a clear coat.
2. What tool did you use on the paint? High speed rotary buffer or orbital?
3. What pad did you use?
4. The compound you used what was it? Not brand name or product name the generic type of compound.
If you can answer these questions I can offer some objective advise.
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
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Re: Faded Red Paint October 20, 2003 02:49AM |
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Re: Faded Red Paint October 20, 2003 02:57AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 73 |
<HTML>your truck is probably a single stage paint. Red is a funny color, it tends to "die" from the inside out, especially if the car is made in japan. I have found that any sucess is short lived when the damage is deep in the paint. If its your truck and the apearance is a major concern I would try to revive it with a GOOD polish job and if that doesnt work and its still a major concern, and you have the money I would get it repainted.
and send me some lessons in sentence structure. hehehe</HTML>
and send me some lessons in sentence structure. hehehe</HTML>
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Re: Faded Red Paint October 20, 2003 03:59AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 1,838 |
<HTML>Darryl:
I know exactly what you mean when you say "the car is pink." I had 2 customers come to me with a 1990 Strawberry Red Mustang LX and a red 1990 Ford Escort but they were more like pink. The car was badly oxidized, including the side mirrors they has a whitish film on them. When I was finished, the cars looked absolutely brand new, sparkling "wet" red.
Here's what I did and maybe it will help you.
For the cutting I used a wool pad on a Hi-Speed polisher and Auto Magic's GS-1 Color Restorer. It's basically a clear coat compound with polish. Then I used a blue pad and Auto Magic's New Car Glaze to give it the clean, swirl free ''wet'' appearance. Then the paste wax.
Now Auto Magic's products can be compared and substituted with any other professional detailing compound, polishes and waxes. Find the one that your most comfortable with.
But make sure you know how to use a hi-speed polisher. STAY AWAY FROM BLUE CORAL'S TOUCHLESS! This stuff is junk and should be banned off store shelves. (I'm a chemical consumer and not a chemical manufacturer so I can speak my opinion on products)</HTML>
Take care,
Brian
Precision Auto & Marine
Learn to detail boats! Visit www.detailtheboat.com
I know exactly what you mean when you say "the car is pink." I had 2 customers come to me with a 1990 Strawberry Red Mustang LX and a red 1990 Ford Escort but they were more like pink. The car was badly oxidized, including the side mirrors they has a whitish film on them. When I was finished, the cars looked absolutely brand new, sparkling "wet" red.
Here's what I did and maybe it will help you.
For the cutting I used a wool pad on a Hi-Speed polisher and Auto Magic's GS-1 Color Restorer. It's basically a clear coat compound with polish. Then I used a blue pad and Auto Magic's New Car Glaze to give it the clean, swirl free ''wet'' appearance. Then the paste wax.
Now Auto Magic's products can be compared and substituted with any other professional detailing compound, polishes and waxes. Find the one that your most comfortable with.
But make sure you know how to use a hi-speed polisher. STAY AWAY FROM BLUE CORAL'S TOUCHLESS! This stuff is junk and should be banned off store shelves. (I'm a chemical consumer and not a chemical manufacturer so I can speak my opinion on products)</HTML>
Take care,
Brian
Precision Auto & Marine
Learn to detail boats! Visit www.detailtheboat.com
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Re: Faded Red Paint October 20, 2003 04:16AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Suspected it was a single stage paint from you description. Everything you did sounds all right, except on a badly oxidized paint you need to use a heavy compound. A light cut, in my experience will not touch a badly oxidized single stage paint.
I just went thru that process where we tried a light; then medium and finally had to use the heavy to get any results. I would wager that if you hit it again with a heavy compound and a 100% wool pad you will get results.
Regards
Bud A</HTML>
buda
I just went thru that process where we tried a light; then medium and finally had to use the heavy to get any results. I would wager that if you hit it again with a heavy compound and a 100% wool pad you will get results.
Regards
Bud A</HTML>
buda
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Re: Faded Red Paint October 20, 2003 04:24AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Mr Mack:
I am troubled by your comments:
1. "Dies from the inside out" could you explain that in more detail. All my experience with automotive paint gives me nothing to explain that statement since oxidation is simply the pigment being affected by the sun's ultra violet rays and that does not happen "inside the paint."
2. Why Japanese cars? I know of nothing unique about Japanese cars, especially red cars, that would cause some special problem. In fact, a great many Japanese cars are made in USA plants using American paints.
3. Again, what do you mean "the damage is deep inside the paint?" Oxidation is on the top layer of paint.
Your solution also is a misnomer. You do not "polish" a badly oxidized paint finishl. You "buff it" "cut it" or "compound it." Then you polish and remover the swirls.
Appreciate your reply as these statement are really puzzling me.
Regards
bud abraham</HTML>
buda
I am troubled by your comments:
1. "Dies from the inside out" could you explain that in more detail. All my experience with automotive paint gives me nothing to explain that statement since oxidation is simply the pigment being affected by the sun's ultra violet rays and that does not happen "inside the paint."
2. Why Japanese cars? I know of nothing unique about Japanese cars, especially red cars, that would cause some special problem. In fact, a great many Japanese cars are made in USA plants using American paints.
3. Again, what do you mean "the damage is deep inside the paint?" Oxidation is on the top layer of paint.
Your solution also is a misnomer. You do not "polish" a badly oxidized paint finishl. You "buff it" "cut it" or "compound it." Then you polish and remover the swirls.
Appreciate your reply as these statement are really puzzling me.
Regards
bud abraham</HTML>
buda
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Re: Faded Red Paint October 21, 2003 10:06PM |
<HTML>Thanks for the comments guys. I went with the heavy compound and got at least a two shades deeper color not perfect but the client is in love and that's want this is all about. Thanks Mr.Abraham for the 100% wool on first pass I used poly/wool blend pad. forgot how good wool can be not doing a lot of single stage paints these days.</HTML>
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Re: Faded Red Paint October 21, 2003 11:32PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
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Re: Faded Red Paint October 24, 2003 01:26AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 73 |
<HTML>sorry for the delay.
I was trying to recall a conversation I had 10 years ago with a chemical engineer.
The best i can remember is something about the pigment used in the paint would not last. There was a red that would but was considerable more expensive.
My attitude toward that era of red (early to mid 90s) is based on past experiences with it.
I have seen GEO Prizims come off the truck with paint damage (pink color)
they are made in california but still a toyota.
I have found that the damage runs deep. I have compounded these cars many times. (various makes but the worst were japanese models)
Compounding and trying to get some kind of moisture in the paint worked the best. But it seemed that no mater how much paint you take off there was still pink underneath. Compounding is a pretty agressive measure. Removing paint and clear coat. After doing this a few times to the same car and having it come back looking the same or worse, I figured I better save some paint for the next time. Eventually the times of trying to correct the problem will wear through the paint. Usually on the corners first.
As for the inside out.. I belive the paint was bad all the way through, the outside maybe a little worse due to more UV exposure. Having clear coat made it worse because to try to correct the color coat you have to compound your way though the clear.
To this day if you want to make me cringe, ask me to detail this type of car.
I have no techical data to suport any claim, but lots of red bufferpads to show for it.</HTML>
I was trying to recall a conversation I had 10 years ago with a chemical engineer.
The best i can remember is something about the pigment used in the paint would not last. There was a red that would but was considerable more expensive.
My attitude toward that era of red (early to mid 90s) is based on past experiences with it.
I have seen GEO Prizims come off the truck with paint damage (pink color)
they are made in california but still a toyota.
I have found that the damage runs deep. I have compounded these cars many times. (various makes but the worst were japanese models)
Compounding and trying to get some kind of moisture in the paint worked the best. But it seemed that no mater how much paint you take off there was still pink underneath. Compounding is a pretty agressive measure. Removing paint and clear coat. After doing this a few times to the same car and having it come back looking the same or worse, I figured I better save some paint for the next time. Eventually the times of trying to correct the problem will wear through the paint. Usually on the corners first.
As for the inside out.. I belive the paint was bad all the way through, the outside maybe a little worse due to more UV exposure. Having clear coat made it worse because to try to correct the color coat you have to compound your way though the clear.
To this day if you want to make me cringe, ask me to detail this type of car.
I have no techical data to suport any claim, but lots of red bufferpads to show for it.</HTML>
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Re: Faded Red Paint October 24, 2003 08:13PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 20 |
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Re: Faded Red Paint October 24, 2003 08:38PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>John:
I posed a similiar question to Phil regarding a base-coat/clear-coat paint finish resulting in a red pad. If it is clear coated there can be no color oxidation and certainly to color transfer on the pad.
You use the term "LAQUER" for the record automobile manufacturers and few, if any, collision repair shops use laquer paints on cars anymore.
The clear coat used on automotive cars at the factory and in the aftermarket are Polyurethane Enamels.
Some base coats are water based paint, but as I understand the clears today are stll solvent based enamels
Regards
Bud A</HTML>
buda
I posed a similiar question to Phil regarding a base-coat/clear-coat paint finish resulting in a red pad. If it is clear coated there can be no color oxidation and certainly to color transfer on the pad.
You use the term "LAQUER" for the record automobile manufacturers and few, if any, collision repair shops use laquer paints on cars anymore.
The clear coat used on automotive cars at the factory and in the aftermarket are Polyurethane Enamels.
Some base coats are water based paint, but as I understand the clears today are stll solvent based enamels
Regards
Bud A</HTML>
buda
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Re: Faded Red Paint October 24, 2003 08:45PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 20 |
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Re: Faded Red Paint October 24, 2003 11:11PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 73 |
<HTML>you can not get color transfer with a car with clear coat. The transfer will indicate a single stage paint. Weather the car came from the factory with clear or not is questionalble. Somewhere down the line someone may have compounded it off.
I will always agree with bud that compounding will yeald the best results. But my point is that in the hands of a detailer or someone else intent on making it look like that every time. Repeated compounding is likely to follow. Then you run the risk of removing what paint you have left. (paint being only about as thick as a business card)
I have owned a car with an ongoing oxidation problem. I tried many things. (repeated compounding) mine was light blue. The finial thing i did was to "buff it into submission" (tech term hehe) I used a product made by 3M called "finesse it". A product that was not supose to contain any wax or silicon. stepping down from a wool pad to a foam cutting pad then a foam finishing pad still using the same product. After i got it to a point of little to no color transfer I washed off as much residue as possible. Then applied a paint sealant. This worked great.
After that the continued care. being my car i could control the what, when, where and how the car was washed and or waxed. I would rinse out my wash mit before i washed my car to ensure there was little possibility that any detergent would damage the work i had done. Wash once a week, and reaply the sealant about once a month. Usually by hand.
I think the key to my sucess with maintaining it was due to not using any harsh detergents during washing. With my customers cars.....who knows what they did if anything. Even with proper education they will still wash it with dish soap.
well anyway good luck</HTML>
I will always agree with bud that compounding will yeald the best results. But my point is that in the hands of a detailer or someone else intent on making it look like that every time. Repeated compounding is likely to follow. Then you run the risk of removing what paint you have left. (paint being only about as thick as a business card)
I have owned a car with an ongoing oxidation problem. I tried many things. (repeated compounding) mine was light blue. The finial thing i did was to "buff it into submission" (tech term hehe) I used a product made by 3M called "finesse it". A product that was not supose to contain any wax or silicon. stepping down from a wool pad to a foam cutting pad then a foam finishing pad still using the same product. After i got it to a point of little to no color transfer I washed off as much residue as possible. Then applied a paint sealant. This worked great.
After that the continued care. being my car i could control the what, when, where and how the car was washed and or waxed. I would rinse out my wash mit before i washed my car to ensure there was little possibility that any detergent would damage the work i had done. Wash once a week, and reaply the sealant about once a month. Usually by hand.
I think the key to my sucess with maintaining it was due to not using any harsh detergents during washing. With my customers cars.....who knows what they did if anything. Even with proper education they will still wash it with dish soap.
well anyway good luck</HTML>
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Re: Faded Red Paint October 25, 2003 12:31AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 1,838 |
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Re: Faded Red Paint October 25, 2003 01:11AM |
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Re: Faded Red Paint October 25, 2003 01:54AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 73 |
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Re: Faded Red Paint October 25, 2003 02:48AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 56 |
<HTML>My gosh, Pmack!!! That was a lot of work to discipline your paint, lol!!!
But, once a finish starts to oxidize, it will always do so unless you keep on top of it constantly. My daughter has a black '89 Mercury Topaz with the same problem. I used my paint perfecting system on it last May and it's a little overdue for another treatment. They say the sealant will last 6 months, but that's under ideal treatment...hand washing with the right shampoo, etc. She never hand washes the car and rarely takes it through the car wash. So, while the sealant has lasted, the finish has that faded look again.
As for clearcoat or "lacquer" as it's known to our friends across the pond, Bud is right. There is no water based clearcoat. It's all polyurethane now. It's put on in 2 coats, with either a wet on wet or wet on medium application. The outer third of the c/c contains the UV protectant which helps protect the basecoat. While there are water-based primers, I've never seen a water-based basecoat. I don't know of any painters that would use a water-based basecoat and then a urethane clear. Almost always, the basecoat is urethane based as well because it's more compatible with the clearcoat. With the primer it's not that important because of the nature of primer. Once it dries, it can be covered with any type of paint, except in special situations or using a unique system of paints such as House of Kolor custom paints.
Each layer of paint from the factory is anywhere from 1/2 to 1 mil thick. 1 mil is 1/1,000 of an inch, so the total thickness from metal to clearcoat is 4-6 mils thick. If you use a thickness gauge and get a reading under 4 mils, you should not use a compound of any kind and should only use a sealant. At that thickness, you're very close to breaking through the clear and even the best buffer operators can burn through.
If you're getting color transfer, then there's no clearcoat on the paint and you're removing paint with your buffer. The finish cannot be made to look better because the more paint you take off, the more the primer will begin to show through and you'll end up with a dull, blotchy unevenly colored finish. Once the clear is gone, it has to be repainted. You can't wax it or apply a sealant to bring it back to it's clearcoat gloss. And if you do, it will only be very temporary.
Even with the best of care, the sun and elements take it's toll on finishes. With repeated compounding, the outer 1/3 will be removed and the clear will lose it's UV resistance and the breakdown of the finish has begun. So, you should be careful not to overbuff with the rotary and compound. It should only be done, if needed. Otherwise, I would think that a cleaner/wax & sealant would be fine or a paint perfecting system with a Cyclo or orbital will yield excellent results without being abrasive to the finish.</HTML>
But, once a finish starts to oxidize, it will always do so unless you keep on top of it constantly. My daughter has a black '89 Mercury Topaz with the same problem. I used my paint perfecting system on it last May and it's a little overdue for another treatment. They say the sealant will last 6 months, but that's under ideal treatment...hand washing with the right shampoo, etc. She never hand washes the car and rarely takes it through the car wash. So, while the sealant has lasted, the finish has that faded look again.
As for clearcoat or "lacquer" as it's known to our friends across the pond, Bud is right. There is no water based clearcoat. It's all polyurethane now. It's put on in 2 coats, with either a wet on wet or wet on medium application. The outer third of the c/c contains the UV protectant which helps protect the basecoat. While there are water-based primers, I've never seen a water-based basecoat. I don't know of any painters that would use a water-based basecoat and then a urethane clear. Almost always, the basecoat is urethane based as well because it's more compatible with the clearcoat. With the primer it's not that important because of the nature of primer. Once it dries, it can be covered with any type of paint, except in special situations or using a unique system of paints such as House of Kolor custom paints.
Each layer of paint from the factory is anywhere from 1/2 to 1 mil thick. 1 mil is 1/1,000 of an inch, so the total thickness from metal to clearcoat is 4-6 mils thick. If you use a thickness gauge and get a reading under 4 mils, you should not use a compound of any kind and should only use a sealant. At that thickness, you're very close to breaking through the clear and even the best buffer operators can burn through.
If you're getting color transfer, then there's no clearcoat on the paint and you're removing paint with your buffer. The finish cannot be made to look better because the more paint you take off, the more the primer will begin to show through and you'll end up with a dull, blotchy unevenly colored finish. Once the clear is gone, it has to be repainted. You can't wax it or apply a sealant to bring it back to it's clearcoat gloss. And if you do, it will only be very temporary.
Even with the best of care, the sun and elements take it's toll on finishes. With repeated compounding, the outer 1/3 will be removed and the clear will lose it's UV resistance and the breakdown of the finish has begun. So, you should be careful not to overbuff with the rotary and compound. It should only be done, if needed. Otherwise, I would think that a cleaner/wax & sealant would be fine or a paint perfecting system with a Cyclo or orbital will yield excellent results without being abrasive to the finish.</HTML>
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Re: Faded Red Paint October 25, 2003 08:43PM |
<HTML>Pmack, I have supplied her with a neutral ph shampoo, lambswool wash mit, and a synthetic chamois and a waffle weave microfiber. Go to her house , the chamois and micro are draped over a step railing, and the car wash soap is collecting dust. She just cant get as anal as she needs to. So, every couple of months, I get it to correct her damaging techniques. She never bitches about the price, so I stopped bitching about her techniques, lol.</HTML>
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Re: Faded Red Paint October 25, 2003 09:09PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 73 |
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