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Car wash information
Posted by Rod W.
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Car wash information August 31, 2004 03:57AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 382 |
<HTML>What 5 things would you want most to warn your clients about if they were going to take their car that you just detailed to a car wash? What are the biggest complaints you've heard about automatic car washes other than the obvious "my car got scratched/dented/dmaged", etc.?</HTML>
Shine On!
Rod Wesley
Touch Up 'N' Go!
Auto & Marine Appearance Center
We take your car from Rough to Buff!
Visit our website at: www.touchupngo.com
Shine On!
Rod Wesley
Touch Up 'N' Go!
Auto & Marine Appearance Center
We take your car from Rough to Buff!
Visit our website at: www.touchupngo.com
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Re: Car wash information August 31, 2004 01:29PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Before being so quick to condemn automatic carwashes for scratching cars you ought to read the results of a study done by the Technological University of Munich for Mercedes Benz, substantiated by the University of Texas which reported that hand washing caused more damage to the finish of the car after 26 washings than did machine washing. And, this was an automatic with plastic washing material. Today washes are using a special cloth and/or foam.
The key point of the report was that as soon as you put the mitt; sponge; rag, etc on the car you pickup the surface grit and dirt in the mitt, etc and this acts like a fine piece of sandpaper on the surface of the car.
Whereas with a carwash the car is constantly bombarded with gallons of water and shampoo forming a barrier between the washing material and the paint.
They took photos of the paint on both cars after the 26 washings and found that they finish that was hand washed had a tremendous number of deep scratches going every which way, and it had to be buffed out to shine again.
The conclusion was, if you are going to hand wash you needed to hold a hose in one hand and the washing device in the other and run the hose on the surface you were washing to achieve the same protection an automatic carwash provides.
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
The key point of the report was that as soon as you put the mitt; sponge; rag, etc on the car you pickup the surface grit and dirt in the mitt, etc and this acts like a fine piece of sandpaper on the surface of the car.
Whereas with a carwash the car is constantly bombarded with gallons of water and shampoo forming a barrier between the washing material and the paint.
They took photos of the paint on both cars after the 26 washings and found that they finish that was hand washed had a tremendous number of deep scratches going every which way, and it had to be buffed out to shine again.
The conclusion was, if you are going to hand wash you needed to hold a hose in one hand and the washing device in the other and run the hose on the surface you were washing to achieve the same protection an automatic carwash provides.
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
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Re: Car wash information August 31, 2004 04:01PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 147 |
<HTML>The automatic washes may bombard the car with soap and water, but they don't necessarily scrub the dirt off. The automatic wash we had at the dealership did just that, and afterwards there were dirt spots and crud still stuck on. I have never seen an automatic wash do as well as a hand wash job, besides the fact I have proof of the automatic wash took paint off my car. Different automatic washes, same results.
Just my opinion
Anne</HTML>
Just my opinion
Anne</HTML>
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Re: Car wash information August 31, 2004 05:37PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 237 |
<HTML>Further more... I rarely have to repair damage done by people hand washing their cars. We do a half dozen a week that are damage by car washes.
Again, I don't always believe the tests... especially when commisioned by manufacturers of car washes. But I will believe my own personal experiences.
Besides, I don't know what it's like over in America, but over here, 98% of car washes are the old kind with plastic wire brissles. Of the rest, some are soft wash which do marginly less damage. And the pressure wash kind that only use water are rarer than rockinghorse poo.</HTML>
Again, I don't always believe the tests... especially when commisioned by manufacturers of car washes. But I will believe my own personal experiences.
Besides, I don't know what it's like over in America, but over here, 98% of car washes are the old kind with plastic wire brissles. Of the rest, some are soft wash which do marginly less damage. And the pressure wash kind that only use water are rarer than rockinghorse poo.</HTML>
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Re: Car wash information September 01, 2004 12:26AM |
<HTML>My experiance with automatic washes has been that plastic brisle brushes scratch and if the water sprayer malfunctions and an employee keeps the brushes spinning, they will remove paint.
The brushless system, using toweling, doesn't scratch although I theorize that the spinning towels could smack a dirt chunk into the paint and drag it harshly instead of working it loose gently.
The touchless system doesn't remove all dirt and uses hot water, which might theoretically cause thermal shock in winter.
My biggest problem has been that automatics use harsh soaps and other chemicals that remove wax in one trip through. One wash used dirty water that left a baked-on pattern of dirt film on my white truck, which I then had to hit with cleaner/wax.
Sometimes wash employees wipe down the interior, smearing the windows and towel-dry the car with harsh rubbing that removes dirt the wash missed and can scratch. Some places use a nylon wash brush to loosen dirt manually before the car enters the tunnel and that can scratch.
It is probably no longer done, but washes used to use carbide brushes to clean the tires, destroying the aluminum wheels in the process.
Don't get me started on radio antennas, for which they are " Not Responsible ".
I've read that car washes that have dirty filters can let fine dirt sand blast your paint every time you visit.
Bud is right that you can minimize scratches by washing with a continuous stream of water if you do it by hand. I'd add that gentle drying is important as well.
It still mystifies me that a car wash will express hand wax a car one week and remove that wax next week in the same automatic wash.
What would be nice would be a touchless tunnel wash with mild soap for waxed cars.
Doug
" Never poke a man who's chewing tobacco ".</HTML>
The brushless system, using toweling, doesn't scratch although I theorize that the spinning towels could smack a dirt chunk into the paint and drag it harshly instead of working it loose gently.
The touchless system doesn't remove all dirt and uses hot water, which might theoretically cause thermal shock in winter.
My biggest problem has been that automatics use harsh soaps and other chemicals that remove wax in one trip through. One wash used dirty water that left a baked-on pattern of dirt film on my white truck, which I then had to hit with cleaner/wax.
Sometimes wash employees wipe down the interior, smearing the windows and towel-dry the car with harsh rubbing that removes dirt the wash missed and can scratch. Some places use a nylon wash brush to loosen dirt manually before the car enters the tunnel and that can scratch.
It is probably no longer done, but washes used to use carbide brushes to clean the tires, destroying the aluminum wheels in the process.
Don't get me started on radio antennas, for which they are " Not Responsible ".
I've read that car washes that have dirty filters can let fine dirt sand blast your paint every time you visit.
Bud is right that you can minimize scratches by washing with a continuous stream of water if you do it by hand. I'd add that gentle drying is important as well.
It still mystifies me that a car wash will express hand wax a car one week and remove that wax next week in the same automatic wash.
What would be nice would be a touchless tunnel wash with mild soap for waxed cars.
Doug
" Never poke a man who's chewing tobacco ".</HTML>
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Re: Car wash information September 01, 2004 04:28AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>I have washed every car I and my wife have owned for the past 40 years in an automatic carwash, sometimes twice a week and never have I experienced the paint coming off.
If a carwash took off paint it was ready to fall off anyway.
Anne, from what you have posted in the past about the car you own and have worked on the paint did not seem in that good a condition in any case. Seemed to be repainted, if I recall.
Dan, read more carefully. The study I reported on was "commissioned by Mercedes Benz," not the carwash manufacturers.
Further, automobile manufacturers have automatic carwashes in their plants, including BMW and Mercedes Benz.
Automobile manufacturers have carwashes in the Dealer Equipment Catalogs to buy that they provide low interest financing for.
Automobile dealers across the country are putting in carwashes to wash customer cars as well as their own inventory.
And, finally, more carwashes are being built today than ever before in the history of the industry. Why is that? Because the motorist is using them.
Say what you want about automatic carwashes, they are here to stay and the motorist is, and will continue to use them.
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
If a carwash took off paint it was ready to fall off anyway.
Anne, from what you have posted in the past about the car you own and have worked on the paint did not seem in that good a condition in any case. Seemed to be repainted, if I recall.
Dan, read more carefully. The study I reported on was "commissioned by Mercedes Benz," not the carwash manufacturers.
Further, automobile manufacturers have automatic carwashes in their plants, including BMW and Mercedes Benz.
Automobile manufacturers have carwashes in the Dealer Equipment Catalogs to buy that they provide low interest financing for.
Automobile dealers across the country are putting in carwashes to wash customer cars as well as their own inventory.
And, finally, more carwashes are being built today than ever before in the history of the industry. Why is that? Because the motorist is using them.
Say what you want about automatic carwashes, they are here to stay and the motorist is, and will continue to use them.
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
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Re: Car wash information September 01, 2004 05:17AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 866 |
<HTML>BUNK!!!
Here is a vehicle that has car wash damage. This is the NORM!!
<img src=http://www.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/184DETAILING_1325-med.jpg>
I repair scratches, scuffs and alike all the time from car washes.</HTML>
-----------------------------------------------------
Plays in the rain --- www.SuperiorShineDetailing.com
Here is a vehicle that has car wash damage. This is the NORM!!
<img src=http://www.meguiarsonline.com/gallery/data/500/184DETAILING_1325-med.jpg>
I repair scratches, scuffs and alike all the time from car washes.</HTML>
-----------------------------------------------------
Plays in the rain --- www.SuperiorShineDetailing.com
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Re: Car wash information September 01, 2004 02:47PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Keep in mind, "I did not say that automatic carwashes DO NOT DAMAGE EVER," I only reported what information I know of and my personal experience.
That does not mean that ALL carwashes use sufficient water and shampoo when they wash a car.
That does not mean that ALL carwashes use "soft cloth" or "foam washing material."
From my experience I would bet $50 that this car was washed in a gas station roll-over carwash that has plastic brushes; uses as little water as possible and little or no shampoo.
For the record, I would never take any car I owned thru a gas station carwash under any circumstances.
What I refer to are the well-maintained and operated, professional, conveyorized carwashes where the owner makes his living selling a carwash service, not gasoline.
As many of you have said about taking your car to a carwash for a detail. The best place to get a detail is from a detail shop that makes their sole living detailing cars.
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
That does not mean that ALL carwashes use sufficient water and shampoo when they wash a car.
That does not mean that ALL carwashes use "soft cloth" or "foam washing material."
From my experience I would bet $50 that this car was washed in a gas station roll-over carwash that has plastic brushes; uses as little water as possible and little or no shampoo.
For the record, I would never take any car I owned thru a gas station carwash under any circumstances.
What I refer to are the well-maintained and operated, professional, conveyorized carwashes where the owner makes his living selling a carwash service, not gasoline.
As many of you have said about taking your car to a carwash for a detail. The best place to get a detail is from a detail shop that makes their sole living detailing cars.
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
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Re: Car wash information September 01, 2004 04:11PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 237 |
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Re: Car wash information September 01, 2004 10:52PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 147 |
<HTML>Bud, my car's paint might have been repainted, but its still a good paint job and there is no reason why it should chip and scratch just after an automatic wash. My friend has seen with his very own eyes clearcoat taken off a car due to an automatic wash. Furthermore, these washes have problems with odd-sized cars- Miatas and SUVs to name a couple. Let's not forget how they strip the wax off cars; I've seen this done too! They may be here to stay, but we must warn the general public about using them!
Anne</HTML>
Anne</HTML>
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Re: Car wash information September 01, 2004 11:40PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Ann:
There is nothing in a carwash that can take clear coat or paint off the car unless it was ready to come off in the first place.
What you say is just not logical. If what you say then carwashes would all close up.
Do you think the motorist would go to a carwash if they took off paint? Come on you are more intelligent than that.
I will admit that improperly operated brush washes with little water and soap will put scratch marks in paint, but that is about all.
As for knocking off antennas or mirrors, etc. YEs, that happens too, but that is because they were loose in the first place. Certain antennas are best taken off before going thru a wash and good operators do that.
And, if washes are so bad why do auto manufacturers and dealers have them in their facilities? And why do motorists use them?
REgards
Bud ABraham</HTML>
buda
There is nothing in a carwash that can take clear coat or paint off the car unless it was ready to come off in the first place.
What you say is just not logical. If what you say then carwashes would all close up.
Do you think the motorist would go to a carwash if they took off paint? Come on you are more intelligent than that.
I will admit that improperly operated brush washes with little water and soap will put scratch marks in paint, but that is about all.
As for knocking off antennas or mirrors, etc. YEs, that happens too, but that is because they were loose in the first place. Certain antennas are best taken off before going thru a wash and good operators do that.
And, if washes are so bad why do auto manufacturers and dealers have them in their facilities? And why do motorists use them?
REgards
Bud ABraham</HTML>
buda
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Re: Car wash information September 02, 2004 01:37AM |
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Re: Car wash information September 02, 2004 05:44AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Doug:
Why would something like this be needed? Millions upon millions of automatic carwashes are performed yearly in the USA and Canada alone and the accusations you and other detailers are making about carwashes do not seem to hold any water, so to speak. The overwhelming success of automatic carwashes compared to most detail shops seems to me to indicate that the consumer/motorist is quite happy with an automatic carwash.
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
Why would something like this be needed? Millions upon millions of automatic carwashes are performed yearly in the USA and Canada alone and the accusations you and other detailers are making about carwashes do not seem to hold any water, so to speak. The overwhelming success of automatic carwashes compared to most detail shops seems to me to indicate that the consumer/motorist is quite happy with an automatic carwash.
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
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Re: Floaties in the Soap Car wash information September 02, 2004 01:47PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 243 |
<HTML>Buda, I did as you recommended me to do, at the Body Shop, and my home shop. That was to install 1-35 gallon drum for soap water at each end of the shop wash area. I never let the liquid levels drop below 80%. and I installed a screen about 25% from the top this screen has 7/16" holes to let the water dirt to drift to the bottom. This should keep all of the abrasives at the bottom of the barrel, right? Wrong! I cratched the hell out of a side on a MB thats a new customer of mine. I didn't realize that this was done until blow drying the car off. I rechecked the wash mit and nothing visible,but I discarded it anyway to use on metal wheels or bumpers. The soap suds had all but settled in the drums,so I retrieved a gt jar of the soap water solution. I didn't see any settling of dirt in the bottom,but there was suspended solids in the material. I kept the jar of liquid to take to the refinery research lab from where I retired. I make a visit trip up there about once a month,but anyway, I got the lab to check it, it was an abrasive,and under their superduper microscope,it was some type of sand,but still was some where in between being not light enough to float on water,nor heavy enough to sink to the bottom as does 98% of the other abrasives. So I guess what I'm saying "Hand Job's" can scratch a finish.
Auto Wash- My neighbor asked me to come with him to an automatic drive thru was at the neighborhood filling station,as the centers had been scratched with their tire brush. We met the owner,and he was very defensive of his equipment and operation. Said there was no way his tire brush could have etched, or scratched the clear coat on the wheels. I asked him to to let the Lincoln customer than had just come in for a fill up or what ever, to give them a free car wash to see while we were there, if any damage would be done. He said it was his wife, and would be no problem. I got a paper towel from the toweling rack washed one off with clear water, no visible scratches were seen at this time. He sent the vehicle thru, when the vehicle was blown dry and left the wash tunnel,there was definate scratching, but very minor. If each time the vehicle was washed here in a period of time,you wouldn't be able to recognize the wheels.
The moral to all of this story was the "Wrong Style" of brushes had been ordered and installed at the car wash. I'm not saying which type of washing is right or wrong,but you can get scratching from any operation........................Brandy!</HTML>
Auto Wash- My neighbor asked me to come with him to an automatic drive thru was at the neighborhood filling station,as the centers had been scratched with their tire brush. We met the owner,and he was very defensive of his equipment and operation. Said there was no way his tire brush could have etched, or scratched the clear coat on the wheels. I asked him to to let the Lincoln customer than had just come in for a fill up or what ever, to give them a free car wash to see while we were there, if any damage would be done. He said it was his wife, and would be no problem. I got a paper towel from the toweling rack washed one off with clear water, no visible scratches were seen at this time. He sent the vehicle thru, when the vehicle was blown dry and left the wash tunnel,there was definate scratching, but very minor. If each time the vehicle was washed here in a period of time,you wouldn't be able to recognize the wheels.
The moral to all of this story was the "Wrong Style" of brushes had been ordered and installed at the car wash. I'm not saying which type of washing is right or wrong,but you can get scratching from any operation........................Brandy!</HTML>
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Re: Floaties in the Soap Car wash information September 02, 2004 10:44PM |
<HTML>Bud : The average motorist doesn't always know what clean wheel wells and wheels look like and is satisfied with the limited results of a good tunnel wash. You can't beat the price either ( $5 in this little town ).
Tunnel washing may be best for most people but fussy people want every nook and cranny clean and they want their wax to last through the wash.
The public has no clear guidance on picking a quality automatic wash. Certification would matter to me if I were the customer, wondering if harsh chemicals, grit and dirty water are about to be sprayed at my car.
The reason car washes do a better business than detail shops is two-fold :
Convenience and price . Hand wash operations such as " The fast Lane " in the Atlanta GA area do well but I don't know whether they scratch the finish at all, etc.
Doug</HTML>
Tunnel washing may be best for most people but fussy people want every nook and cranny clean and they want their wax to last through the wash.
The public has no clear guidance on picking a quality automatic wash. Certification would matter to me if I were the customer, wondering if harsh chemicals, grit and dirty water are about to be sprayed at my car.
The reason car washes do a better business than detail shops is two-fold :
Convenience and price . Hand wash operations such as " The fast Lane " in the Atlanta GA area do well but I don't know whether they scratch the finish at all, etc.
Doug</HTML>
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Re: Floaties in the Soap Car wash information September 02, 2004 11:01PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 147 |
<HTML>Bud, I agree with what Doug has to say. These motorists who go to the automatic washes in my opinion are not thinking straight. They aren't educated on the dangers of washes and they think they can trust the "experts" when it comes to their cars. Drives me nuts!!! I gave an hour long lecture to my ex co-worker about what she was really doing to her car by washing it in an automatic wash. Thing is, people are super lazy, they trust the wrong people and they cannot pass up a good deal. What a shame, all those worthless cars. I tell ya- unless its a Minnesotan thing, about 4 out of 5 cars I see in a parking lot are dull and scratched up. My guess- automatic wash! I can tell the people who like their car and wash it themselves, they look as sharp as mine. Any age, any paint job, doesn't matter.
My two cents. Wait I think I'm up to 8 cents.
Anne</HTML>
My two cents. Wait I think I'm up to 8 cents.
Anne</HTML>
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Re: Floaties in the Soap Car wash information September 02, 2004 11:42PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Anne:
While I respect that everyone has an opinion about everything and anything. I must say that I would disagree with your blanket opinion that "all" automatic carwashes are bad and all scratch cars.
You hold your opinion, but what do you say about the results of the test conducted by the Technological University of Munich for Merceds Benz that concluded that hand washing was more harmful to the paint than machine washing? Do you just ignore that because it disagrees with what you think?
You are in your twenties and I my 60's, I have washed my cars brand new and old for years in automatic carwashes and have never experienced any of the horror stories I am reading on the forum.
And, I certainly would never take my car to one of these "charity" hand washes conducted every weekend across the country in every town by high school cheerleaders. Watching how they wash is frightening.
In fact, watching how most detailers hand wash a car is frightening, and I have seen a lot of detailers hand washing cars over the years.
Again, yours is only an opinion that I do not believe is based on complete facts.
That is my opinion.
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
While I respect that everyone has an opinion about everything and anything. I must say that I would disagree with your blanket opinion that "all" automatic carwashes are bad and all scratch cars.
You hold your opinion, but what do you say about the results of the test conducted by the Technological University of Munich for Merceds Benz that concluded that hand washing was more harmful to the paint than machine washing? Do you just ignore that because it disagrees with what you think?
You are in your twenties and I my 60's, I have washed my cars brand new and old for years in automatic carwashes and have never experienced any of the horror stories I am reading on the forum.
And, I certainly would never take my car to one of these "charity" hand washes conducted every weekend across the country in every town by high school cheerleaders. Watching how they wash is frightening.
In fact, watching how most detailers hand wash a car is frightening, and I have seen a lot of detailers hand washing cars over the years.
Again, yours is only an opinion that I do not believe is based on complete facts.
That is my opinion.
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
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Re: Floaties in the Soap Car wash information September 02, 2004 11:46PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Good points, but could it be they do not care? The problem with detailers is that they do not want to sell a service the customer wants to buy, they want to sell a service they want to sell.
If you know marketing you would realize that a smarter marketer finds and need and develops a product or service to fill the need.
It is clear that the motorist wants a convenient; fast; quality and reasonably priced carwash. That is why carwashes are so successful.
What I see here are a bunch of people bitching because the market does not want to buy the service they want to buy. So they are criticizing the successful service providers, in this case, automatic carwashes.
If you were really smart you would be educating the customers as to why they should pay you $20 for hand carwash as opposed to $5 at the automatic carwash.
Just my opinion
bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
If you know marketing you would realize that a smarter marketer finds and need and develops a product or service to fill the need.
It is clear that the motorist wants a convenient; fast; quality and reasonably priced carwash. That is why carwashes are so successful.
What I see here are a bunch of people bitching because the market does not want to buy the service they want to buy. So they are criticizing the successful service providers, in this case, automatic carwashes.
If you were really smart you would be educating the customers as to why they should pay you $20 for hand carwash as opposed to $5 at the automatic carwash.
Just my opinion
bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
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Re: Floaties in the Soap Car wash information September 03, 2004 01:48AM |
<HTML>Bud : You may be entirely right about selling customers a $20 hand wash but I can see a problem for detailers trying to do this.
First off, the wash process is most of the work in an exterior detail. I'm not sure occasional $20 washes would be a money maker.
Second, Unless you are available all day without an appointment and can wash a car in 10 minutes, you aren't competing with a tunnel wash ; you are in a different business. The hand wash operations in the South aren't thought to work in the North due to winter cold. They are labor-intensive but so are some automatic operations. I wonder if anyone has built a heated hand wash building that keeps the employees warm ????????
I've been told by Jerry Bailey of Duragloss that automatics use alkaline soap that is bad for the car and Meguiar's recommends hand washing ( but says automatics are better than not washing ). Blue Coral says hand washing with a hose and bucket is best. So I'm not the only one with doubts.
I think we need one more improvement in automatics and that is a Gentle
wash cycle for wax preservation. And not to be a broken record: Some way to know whether a wash is safe before we enter it.
The popularity of charity car washes is proof that people do not understand micro-scratching . Some people also think anyone who works with his hands is unskilled and no better than a school girl in a bikini---OOPS, here we go again !
Doug</HTML>
First off, the wash process is most of the work in an exterior detail. I'm not sure occasional $20 washes would be a money maker.
Second, Unless you are available all day without an appointment and can wash a car in 10 minutes, you aren't competing with a tunnel wash ; you are in a different business. The hand wash operations in the South aren't thought to work in the North due to winter cold. They are labor-intensive but so are some automatic operations. I wonder if anyone has built a heated hand wash building that keeps the employees warm ????????
I've been told by Jerry Bailey of Duragloss that automatics use alkaline soap that is bad for the car and Meguiar's recommends hand washing ( but says automatics are better than not washing ). Blue Coral says hand washing with a hose and bucket is best. So I'm not the only one with doubts.
I think we need one more improvement in automatics and that is a Gentle
wash cycle for wax preservation. And not to be a broken record: Some way to know whether a wash is safe before we enter it.
The popularity of charity car washes is proof that people do not understand micro-scratching . Some people also think anyone who works with his hands is unskilled and no better than a school girl in a bikini---OOPS, here we go again !
Doug</HTML>
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Re: Floaties in the Soap Car wash information September 03, 2004 06:07AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Doug:
I would completely agree with you about a $20 hand wash, not much of a market and a detailer cannot make any money doing this unless you are set up to wash them fast. If you can do 30 to 40 a day you will make good money given the overhead is not too expensive.
What you were told by Jerry Bailey is not a revelation. Any water based chemical that is above 7 is an alkaline. You CANNNOT have a carwash shampoo that is not alkaline.
On the pH scale 7 is neutral. Above 7 is alkaline, and below 7 is acidic. The higher the pH the more aggressive the chemical. For example, engine degreasers and white wall cleaners are high pH about 12 to 14 which is as high as the pH scale goes.
The lower the pH the more acidic the chemical. A hydroflouric acid wheel cleaner is probably about 2 to 3 pH.
Carwashes use a very low pH shampoo, probably no more than 8. And I would venture to say a hand carwash shampoo is probably about 8 also.
So who says that these companies are the final word on what is the best way to wash a car? I would take the evidence of the Technological University of Munich before Meguiars or Blue Coral. Wouldn't you? These companies want to sell chemicals. What does the U of M want to do?
The carwash shampoos and the soft cloth or foam washing material in a carwash is no worse on a wax finish than hand washing, probably less since the carwash uses so much more water and shampoo than hand washing.
You all have opinions that are not based on fact, just opinion.
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
I would completely agree with you about a $20 hand wash, not much of a market and a detailer cannot make any money doing this unless you are set up to wash them fast. If you can do 30 to 40 a day you will make good money given the overhead is not too expensive.
What you were told by Jerry Bailey is not a revelation. Any water based chemical that is above 7 is an alkaline. You CANNNOT have a carwash shampoo that is not alkaline.
On the pH scale 7 is neutral. Above 7 is alkaline, and below 7 is acidic. The higher the pH the more aggressive the chemical. For example, engine degreasers and white wall cleaners are high pH about 12 to 14 which is as high as the pH scale goes.
The lower the pH the more acidic the chemical. A hydroflouric acid wheel cleaner is probably about 2 to 3 pH.
Carwashes use a very low pH shampoo, probably no more than 8. And I would venture to say a hand carwash shampoo is probably about 8 also.
So who says that these companies are the final word on what is the best way to wash a car? I would take the evidence of the Technological University of Munich before Meguiars or Blue Coral. Wouldn't you? These companies want to sell chemicals. What does the U of M want to do?
The carwash shampoos and the soft cloth or foam washing material in a carwash is no worse on a wax finish than hand washing, probably less since the carwash uses so much more water and shampoo than hand washing.
You all have opinions that are not based on fact, just opinion.
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
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Re: Floaties in the Soap Car wash information September 03, 2004 02:52PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 237 |
<HTML>If that test found that hand washing was worse than automated car washes, then the methodology was wrong. Just like anything, there is a right way and a wrong way to hand wash a car. To get the results they did, they were obviously doing it wrong.
And I can't say I'm surprised that a test like this, even one from a university, should produce results which, surprise, surprise, puts a smile on the face of share holders. We have seen it before, with cigarette manufacturers being able to point to countless studies which found no link between smoking and cancer. Universities need funding and very rarely upset their sponsors.
The car wash industry is huge and quite a powerful lobby. And I'm sure you wouldn't have to dig very deep to find a link with Mercedes, who incidentally have invented a new nano-technology ceramic paint which they say, reduces the effect of damage from automated car washes by up to 40%. So obviously, car washes do cause damage when it suits their advertising needs.
If damage wasn't a problem for the car wash industry, they wouldn't have to spend so much time talking about it. A quick search of google will reveal that the industry holds seminars and training on how to deal with litigation, how to 'manage' the bad PR. The industry even has special terms and acronyms regarding car wash damage and the amount of money it costs them.
The acid test is this, if you go to a car wash and ask them if they will take responsibility for any damage caused by their car wash, you will probably find the answer to be 'no', and that they have lawyers and small print aplenty. If car washes were safe, why would they bother? In fact, if washing by hand were worse as your report says, then why isn’t it that detailers on this forum aren't talking about this issue and how they should be getting lawyered up?
I really don't care what the tests say. In fact I don't really see the need for simulated tests when you don't have to go further than the parking lot to see the real world evidence.
Besides, it’s just spin. From what you tell us, it doesn’t actually say that car washes DON’T cause damage, it just says that hand washing is worse…. But I’ll take my chances.
I have seen dozens of cars much like the car in Joe's photo. These cars don't just have millions of scratches all facing the same way, they have deep ridges worn into the paintwork, if you run your fingers across them, the paint feels textured. You often find that the paint is pitted with holes, because the ends of the brushes lashing the paint surface cause small chips! You would have to be using a cat of nine tails to get the same effect from hand washing.
When I was working in Sweden, I saw a lot of cars that were German imports, and I can see why Mercedes would take an interest in this subject. German ownership habits mean they do lots of miles on the Autobahn and use automated car washes very regularly. So much washing, that paintwork on three year old cars was damaged beyond repair. Which included rust spots, so Swedish dealers were buying high end BMW and Merc, getting them for a song because they were in such a sorry state and then importing them to Sweden, where the company I worked for would do a full paint restoration which might involve 2 whole days of buffing. This would give an 85% improvement and dramatically increase the value of the car. Upon close inspection, you could still see ridges and pitting, but it was good enough so the man in the street wouldn’t notice, (A lot of people can’t see further than the Mercedes badge, if you get my meaning).
So you see, the damage caused by German car washes has spawned a whole sub-industry in Northern Europe of which I have first hand experience. It was where I learned to mop cars.
Of course, I have seen damage done by people hand washing cars. Sometimes they get a bit of grit trapped in the sponge and it causes an obvious scratch. I have also seen cars which looked like they have been scrubbed with wire wool... often this is not far from being the case and you will find that the owner used something totally unsuitable like a harsh brush attachment on a hose pipe.
By the same token, I am willing to believe that touchless washes don't cause damage... but our customers tell me that they don't do a very good job of cleaning your car either.
As for soft wash options, I recommend to my customers that they go and feel the mops and brushes before taking their cars through. I have done it; I even have the photos to prove it. I don't care how much water is flowing over the car, I wouldn't trust these machines over a natural sponge or lamb's wool mitt. But luckily there are plenty of people who do use them, and when their paintwork begins to look rough, they bring their cars to us to put right.
So, we are not in competition with car washes… far from it. They generate business for us.
But let me give my cynical opinion of the facts of this test.
Mercedes sell their cars to the type of people who use car washes, and they are getting cut to ribbons by them, heaven knows what they do to those silly plastic SMART cars. So it IS a problem, even if it isn’t the fault of Mercedes. They want “Mercedes motoring” to be “Care-Free motoring”, and so they are addressing this problem. That’s why they are developing nano-tech paint which is more scratch resistant.
Ask yourself this… a huge company like Mercedes is capable of creating nano-technology, so why aren’t they capable of doing a simple comparative test between hand washing and automated washing? Why farm the test out to a university? Maybe because they wanted to have the ‘independent’ tag on them because they knew the results would fly in the face of all conventional wisdom!
So the university gets a new library or gymnasium named after Mr Benz, and Mercedes get exactly the result they expected and wanted, and they can use the shock results as leverage in whatever strategy they had already worked out before approaching the university in the first place.</HTML>
And I can't say I'm surprised that a test like this, even one from a university, should produce results which, surprise, surprise, puts a smile on the face of share holders. We have seen it before, with cigarette manufacturers being able to point to countless studies which found no link between smoking and cancer. Universities need funding and very rarely upset their sponsors.
The car wash industry is huge and quite a powerful lobby. And I'm sure you wouldn't have to dig very deep to find a link with Mercedes, who incidentally have invented a new nano-technology ceramic paint which they say, reduces the effect of damage from automated car washes by up to 40%. So obviously, car washes do cause damage when it suits their advertising needs.
If damage wasn't a problem for the car wash industry, they wouldn't have to spend so much time talking about it. A quick search of google will reveal that the industry holds seminars and training on how to deal with litigation, how to 'manage' the bad PR. The industry even has special terms and acronyms regarding car wash damage and the amount of money it costs them.
The acid test is this, if you go to a car wash and ask them if they will take responsibility for any damage caused by their car wash, you will probably find the answer to be 'no', and that they have lawyers and small print aplenty. If car washes were safe, why would they bother? In fact, if washing by hand were worse as your report says, then why isn’t it that detailers on this forum aren't talking about this issue and how they should be getting lawyered up?
I really don't care what the tests say. In fact I don't really see the need for simulated tests when you don't have to go further than the parking lot to see the real world evidence.
Besides, it’s just spin. From what you tell us, it doesn’t actually say that car washes DON’T cause damage, it just says that hand washing is worse…. But I’ll take my chances.
I have seen dozens of cars much like the car in Joe's photo. These cars don't just have millions of scratches all facing the same way, they have deep ridges worn into the paintwork, if you run your fingers across them, the paint feels textured. You often find that the paint is pitted with holes, because the ends of the brushes lashing the paint surface cause small chips! You would have to be using a cat of nine tails to get the same effect from hand washing.
When I was working in Sweden, I saw a lot of cars that were German imports, and I can see why Mercedes would take an interest in this subject. German ownership habits mean they do lots of miles on the Autobahn and use automated car washes very regularly. So much washing, that paintwork on three year old cars was damaged beyond repair. Which included rust spots, so Swedish dealers were buying high end BMW and Merc, getting them for a song because they were in such a sorry state and then importing them to Sweden, where the company I worked for would do a full paint restoration which might involve 2 whole days of buffing. This would give an 85% improvement and dramatically increase the value of the car. Upon close inspection, you could still see ridges and pitting, but it was good enough so the man in the street wouldn’t notice, (A lot of people can’t see further than the Mercedes badge, if you get my meaning).
So you see, the damage caused by German car washes has spawned a whole sub-industry in Northern Europe of which I have first hand experience. It was where I learned to mop cars.
Of course, I have seen damage done by people hand washing cars. Sometimes they get a bit of grit trapped in the sponge and it causes an obvious scratch. I have also seen cars which looked like they have been scrubbed with wire wool... often this is not far from being the case and you will find that the owner used something totally unsuitable like a harsh brush attachment on a hose pipe.
By the same token, I am willing to believe that touchless washes don't cause damage... but our customers tell me that they don't do a very good job of cleaning your car either.
As for soft wash options, I recommend to my customers that they go and feel the mops and brushes before taking their cars through. I have done it; I even have the photos to prove it. I don't care how much water is flowing over the car, I wouldn't trust these machines over a natural sponge or lamb's wool mitt. But luckily there are plenty of people who do use them, and when their paintwork begins to look rough, they bring their cars to us to put right.
So, we are not in competition with car washes… far from it. They generate business for us.
But let me give my cynical opinion of the facts of this test.
Mercedes sell their cars to the type of people who use car washes, and they are getting cut to ribbons by them, heaven knows what they do to those silly plastic SMART cars. So it IS a problem, even if it isn’t the fault of Mercedes. They want “Mercedes motoring” to be “Care-Free motoring”, and so they are addressing this problem. That’s why they are developing nano-tech paint which is more scratch resistant.
Ask yourself this… a huge company like Mercedes is capable of creating nano-technology, so why aren’t they capable of doing a simple comparative test between hand washing and automated washing? Why farm the test out to a university? Maybe because they wanted to have the ‘independent’ tag on them because they knew the results would fly in the face of all conventional wisdom!
So the university gets a new library or gymnasium named after Mr Benz, and Mercedes get exactly the result they expected and wanted, and they can use the shock results as leverage in whatever strategy they had already worked out before approaching the university in the first place.</HTML>
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Re: Floaties in the Soap Car wash information September 03, 2004 03:07PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Dan:
How can you make statements about a test, the results of which you have never read?
Further, the test was not conducted by carwash companies. It was conducted for Mercedes Benz.
Because you do not like the results means nothing.
When you have read the results of the test; the protocols and how it was conducted you have a right to make statements until then you commentary is without merit in my opinion.
Regards
Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS</HTML>
buda
How can you make statements about a test, the results of which you have never read?
Further, the test was not conducted by carwash companies. It was conducted for Mercedes Benz.
Because you do not like the results means nothing.
When you have read the results of the test; the protocols and how it was conducted you have a right to make statements until then you commentary is without merit in my opinion.
Regards
Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS</HTML>
buda
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Re: Floaties in the Soap Car wash information September 03, 2004 03:42PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 237 |
<HTML>Until we have read this test, we have to rely you... somebody who sells car wash equipment, to pick out the bits you think we should hear.
You can't have your cake and eat it Bud. You can't come here telling us you have all the facts, and we only have opions, then express your opinions over our speculation.
Thats not the way to convice people.
It's just another test commisioned by a huge multi-national with a vested interest in burying or obstrficating any industry problem which it doesn't have imediate answers for. I have no reason to believe this teast any more that the tests which say that there is no connection between smoking and cancer.</HTML>
You can't have your cake and eat it Bud. You can't come here telling us you have all the facts, and we only have opions, then express your opinions over our speculation.
Thats not the way to convice people.
It's just another test commisioned by a huge multi-national with a vested interest in burying or obstrficating any industry problem which it doesn't have imediate answers for. I have no reason to believe this teast any more that the tests which say that there is no connection between smoking and cancer.</HTML>
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Re: Floaties in the Soap Car wash information September 03, 2004 03:47PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 641 |
<HTML>Bud, a few years back, Blue Coral's tunnel wash divison and Grace-Lee marketed a "pre-soak" solution.
It had a fairly high percentage of hydrofluric acid in it.
Some models of vehicles, dependant upon the clear supplier, etc experienced severe clear and trim damage from this chemical formula.
Often, the "car wash suppliers", lack the knowledge required of newer paint systems or trim, when they attempt to fulfill the expectations of the carwash operators.
This results in the sort of damage these two companies created for their customers.
Carwashes can and do damage vehicles, but then so do detailers who use extremely caustic chemical's, salt and butyl laden soaps, etc.
We are back to the "education" factor again.
Grumpy</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it at all!
It had a fairly high percentage of hydrofluric acid in it.
Some models of vehicles, dependant upon the clear supplier, etc experienced severe clear and trim damage from this chemical formula.
Often, the "car wash suppliers", lack the knowledge required of newer paint systems or trim, when they attempt to fulfill the expectations of the carwash operators.
This results in the sort of damage these two companies created for their customers.
Carwashes can and do damage vehicles, but then so do detailers who use extremely caustic chemical's, salt and butyl laden soaps, etc.
We are back to the "education" factor again.
Grumpy</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it at all!
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Re: Floaties in the Soap Car wash information September 03, 2004 04:01PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 641 |
<HTML>A few years back, Ford and GM worked with the ICA to explore some of these issues.
Then DCX jumped in and they hired a PhD, who those us refer to as Dr. Ram.
The testing was of nozzles and angles, water pressure, heat of the water , etc, and what damages could take place.
From this, it went on to "chemicals", and all carwash suppliers were requested to submit all their water based cleaning chemicals for a set of "protocal correct" testing by an independant lab, paid for by the Big 3.
If I remember correctly, only 7 companies submitted chemicals.
The testing was done anyway.
The results were never made public by ICA, for 'polictical" reasons. I.E. most of the major member chemical suppliers products failed and showed damage.
I did get a set of the results, since we submitted, and rated at the top with one other company.
I have requested numerous times for these test results to be made public, but ICA still refuses to do so, why piss off their "money tree", sort of thing.
And, one other thing, regarding pH of carwash soaps/shampoo's.
Our pH 7 Surface Conditioner is a carwash shampoo, and in concentrate has a pH of around 9, but when diluted, 1 oz to 128 oz of water, is a 7 pH.
It contains no salts, no butyl's, and you may even wash your hair with it.
It does not contain artificle foamers, TSP, etc.
It's base is coconut oil, (cocodiamide), the same as any quality hair shampoo, provides lots of "small foam bubbles", which are much more lubricating of the paint surface and they hold up for an extended period of time.
Since it is non-caustic, it will not remove waxes, sealants, nor will it remove oil, tar, oxidation, etc., and the surface must be agitated with a soft mitt or sponge in order to work, and that is as it should be.
We supply this product, under private label, to Ford, DaimlerChrysler, Saturn, Saab, AC/Delco and Motorcraft.
Which means that all these companies have put it through their engineering labs, toxology labs and received approvals from their paint suppliers for the product.
How many other companies can state that??
Grumpy</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it at all!
Then DCX jumped in and they hired a PhD, who those us refer to as Dr. Ram.
The testing was of nozzles and angles, water pressure, heat of the water , etc, and what damages could take place.
From this, it went on to "chemicals", and all carwash suppliers were requested to submit all their water based cleaning chemicals for a set of "protocal correct" testing by an independant lab, paid for by the Big 3.
If I remember correctly, only 7 companies submitted chemicals.
The testing was done anyway.
The results were never made public by ICA, for 'polictical" reasons. I.E. most of the major member chemical suppliers products failed and showed damage.
I did get a set of the results, since we submitted, and rated at the top with one other company.
I have requested numerous times for these test results to be made public, but ICA still refuses to do so, why piss off their "money tree", sort of thing.
And, one other thing, regarding pH of carwash soaps/shampoo's.
Our pH 7 Surface Conditioner is a carwash shampoo, and in concentrate has a pH of around 9, but when diluted, 1 oz to 128 oz of water, is a 7 pH.
It contains no salts, no butyl's, and you may even wash your hair with it.
It does not contain artificle foamers, TSP, etc.
It's base is coconut oil, (cocodiamide), the same as any quality hair shampoo, provides lots of "small foam bubbles", which are much more lubricating of the paint surface and they hold up for an extended period of time.
Since it is non-caustic, it will not remove waxes, sealants, nor will it remove oil, tar, oxidation, etc., and the surface must be agitated with a soft mitt or sponge in order to work, and that is as it should be.
We supply this product, under private label, to Ford, DaimlerChrysler, Saturn, Saab, AC/Delco and Motorcraft.
Which means that all these companies have put it through their engineering labs, toxology labs and received approvals from their paint suppliers for the product.
How many other companies can state that??
Grumpy</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it at all!
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Re: Floaties in the Soap Car wash information September 03, 2004 05:20PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Ketch:
I will look into the results of this test from ICA and see if I can get some information for you.
For the record, I have been elected to the ICA Board of Directors for the next three years and I hope to provide the board some input on the needs of the detailing industry.
Yes, I am aware that some of the manufacturers were, and are, marketing HF pre soaks.
In fact, the touchless washes still do use acid in their cleaning processes. That is the only way you can clean a car without friction
Regards
bud abraham</HTML>
buda
I will look into the results of this test from ICA and see if I can get some information for you.
For the record, I have been elected to the ICA Board of Directors for the next three years and I hope to provide the board some input on the needs of the detailing industry.
Yes, I am aware that some of the manufacturers were, and are, marketing HF pre soaks.
In fact, the touchless washes still do use acid in their cleaning processes. That is the only way you can clean a car without friction
Regards
bud abraham</HTML>
buda
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Re: Floaties in the Soap Car wash information September 03, 2004 05:35PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Dan:
Our company is primarily a detail equipment company. Yes, I do offer automatic carwashes; hand washes or any type of wash a customer wants, but they are mostly sold overseas and not in the USA.
I have no axe to grind other than to challenge uninformed opinions, which is what most of what you have said is.
I never said that all carwashes are safe, nor did I say that some carwashes do not cause damage.
However, when you have a test conducted comparing both methods of washing and you have tangible results that is not OPINION>
But of course you are entitle to your opinion, right or wrong. I only challenge you because I think you are wrong.
Others can judge for themselves.
There is no point in beating a dead horse, let's move on to more constructive topics rather than you attacking me for my opinion of your opinion. That is of no interest to anyone on the forum.
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
Our company is primarily a detail equipment company. Yes, I do offer automatic carwashes; hand washes or any type of wash a customer wants, but they are mostly sold overseas and not in the USA.
I have no axe to grind other than to challenge uninformed opinions, which is what most of what you have said is.
I never said that all carwashes are safe, nor did I say that some carwashes do not cause damage.
However, when you have a test conducted comparing both methods of washing and you have tangible results that is not OPINION>
But of course you are entitle to your opinion, right or wrong. I only challenge you because I think you are wrong.
Others can judge for themselves.
There is no point in beating a dead horse, let's move on to more constructive topics rather than you attacking me for my opinion of your opinion. That is of no interest to anyone on the forum.
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
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Re: Floaties in the Soap Car wash information September 04, 2004 06:29AM |
<HTML> Bud : I resent the habit on this forum of calling my comments " opinions " incorrectly. I gave facts about a lot of things. Whether bristle brushes of plastic or carbide do damage is a question of fact, not opinion.
Whether automatic washes are a good bet is a matter of opinion ( Yours, as a matter of fact ).
My local brushless tunnel wash manager told me their soap strips wax. He said it is supplied by Blue Coral's car wash supply company. My experiance ( not just opinion ) has been that every automatic I've seen stripped wax. I'd like to see solid evidence of an automatic that doesn't do so and I'd like to know precisely what is causing the wax to strip.
Here is a quote tha supports what Dan was saying :
" By the way, commercial car washes are out out out. The brushing action is much too abrasive, the brushes are harsh, the detergents may not be as mild as we like, and sometimes too much of the dirt, especially around the bottom of the cargets taken off in the drying process. "
Henry Watts from CAR BEAUTIFUL, copyright 1987
And this by recollection, " Don't trust your car to the team of former Ukranian torturers at your local power car wash... "
David Werrer from CAR Maintenance, approx 1972</HTML>
Whether automatic washes are a good bet is a matter of opinion ( Yours, as a matter of fact ).
My local brushless tunnel wash manager told me their soap strips wax. He said it is supplied by Blue Coral's car wash supply company. My experiance ( not just opinion ) has been that every automatic I've seen stripped wax. I'd like to see solid evidence of an automatic that doesn't do so and I'd like to know precisely what is causing the wax to strip.
Here is a quote tha supports what Dan was saying :
" By the way, commercial car washes are out out out. The brushing action is much too abrasive, the brushes are harsh, the detergents may not be as mild as we like, and sometimes too much of the dirt, especially around the bottom of the cargets taken off in the drying process. "
Henry Watts from CAR BEAUTIFUL, copyright 1987
And this by recollection, " Don't trust your car to the team of former Ukranian torturers at your local power car wash... "
David Werrer from CAR Maintenance, approx 1972</HTML>
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Re: Floaties in the Soap Car wash information September 04, 2004 09:47AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 237 |
<HTML>I'm happy to move on and past this subject.
But before I do, I want to make one thing clear, the damage I'm alking about has nothing to do with stripping wax or the chemicals, I'm talking only of the abrasive nature of brushes. I have done some homework on this subject and visited almost all of the car washes in my local area, AND I have taken photos of the brushes close up. One thing which is consisten tin every case is that the brushes are worn and damaged to some degree. This can only happen because they are hitting the cars with some force. If ther is damage to the brushes (normal some kind of plastic wire) it is fairly safe to assume that there is some kind of damage to the cars also.
I posted an article on my web site which includes some of these photos.
[www.clean-image.co.uk]
Something i have wondered about is the question of salt. Many car ashes recycle water, they obviously filter this, but without a desalination plant in the system, how do they filter out the salt?</HTML>
But before I do, I want to make one thing clear, the damage I'm alking about has nothing to do with stripping wax or the chemicals, I'm talking only of the abrasive nature of brushes. I have done some homework on this subject and visited almost all of the car washes in my local area, AND I have taken photos of the brushes close up. One thing which is consisten tin every case is that the brushes are worn and damaged to some degree. This can only happen because they are hitting the cars with some force. If ther is damage to the brushes (normal some kind of plastic wire) it is fairly safe to assume that there is some kind of damage to the cars also.
I posted an article on my web site which includes some of these photos.
[www.clean-image.co.uk]
Something i have wondered about is the question of salt. Many car ashes recycle water, they obviously filter this, but without a desalination plant in the system, how do they filter out the salt?</HTML>
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Re: Floaties in the Soap Car wash information September 04, 2004 02:51PM |
<HTML> Dan: I've wondered about the salt too . Good question. I hope Bud can anwer it for us . BTW a lot of the do-it-yourself washes recycle water too.
Dan : You are right about brushes scratching but remember that you aren't in the same country as most of us. Most car washes in the U.S. , I believe, are " Brushless ", meaning they use toweling or " touchless ", meaning they use hot water and harsh chemicals. Neither of these modern methods is prone to scratching. If the British are still using brushes, a new brushless wash may be the business for you to go into.
Doug</HTML>
Dan : You are right about brushes scratching but remember that you aren't in the same country as most of us. Most car washes in the U.S. , I believe, are " Brushless ", meaning they use toweling or " touchless ", meaning they use hot water and harsh chemicals. Neither of these modern methods is prone to scratching. If the British are still using brushes, a new brushless wash may be the business for you to go into.
Doug</HTML>
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