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Think about this ---
Posted by Superior Shine Dtl
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Think about this --- May 25, 2005 05:27AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 35 |
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Re: Think about this --- May 25, 2005 02:34PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 641 |
<HTML>Joe,
That has been an area of confusion since I started in this business over 40+ years ago.
The "term" glaze, actually relates to a "coating" over a surface, such as "glazing a ham". In other words, as I understand it, a "glaze" in our industry is a product that is put on to "cover up" and create a short term finish.
The "term" polish is easier to understand is one first knows the term "burnish", which, without looking it up in a dictionary, means to finely polish a surface to remove minor imperfections.
The "term" compounding, on the other hand, means to "abrade" the surface of imperfections.
So, once one "abrades" the surface, in order to attain a smooth, imperfection free surface, a "burnishing" process (polishing) must be preformed.
The addition of a "glaze" is to mask any imperfections left by the technican in the surface.
Does this make any sense to you?
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it at all!
That has been an area of confusion since I started in this business over 40+ years ago.
The "term" glaze, actually relates to a "coating" over a surface, such as "glazing a ham". In other words, as I understand it, a "glaze" in our industry is a product that is put on to "cover up" and create a short term finish.
The "term" polish is easier to understand is one first knows the term "burnish", which, without looking it up in a dictionary, means to finely polish a surface to remove minor imperfections.
The "term" compounding, on the other hand, means to "abrade" the surface of imperfections.
So, once one "abrades" the surface, in order to attain a smooth, imperfection free surface, a "burnishing" process (polishing) must be preformed.
The addition of a "glaze" is to mask any imperfections left by the technican in the surface.
Does this make any sense to you?
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it at all!
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Re: Think about this --- May 25, 2005 02:57PM |
<HTML>Perfect sense.
That's how I always defined these three products but we continue to see them grossly misnamed, especially the term "polish". Products anything from a real polish by definition to a cleaner-wax or cleaner-sealant to a last step, pure selant are sometimes called polishes incorrectly. I guess to just fit the public's sense of what it means.</HTML>
That's how I always defined these three products but we continue to see them grossly misnamed, especially the term "polish". Products anything from a real polish by definition to a cleaner-wax or cleaner-sealant to a last step, pure selant are sometimes called polishes incorrectly. I guess to just fit the public's sense of what it means.</HTML>
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Re: Think about this --- May 25, 2005 03:38PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 641 |
<HTML>It is possible to formulate a product that fulfills more than one feature.
The down side is that the product may perform less than one hundred percent in one or two of it's intention.
An example is our OEM One Step, a product we originally made exclusively for Ford Motor Co. We are renaming it One Step Polish and Sealant.
It will do light swirl, marring removal, some cleaning and leaves a polymer coating on the surface.
Can be used, in other words, as a polish, with a DA or rotary, or just hand or DA applied as a final sealant.
There are many other firms that make similar products, as there is a large market for such a product.
However, never found any on them, including our own, that is as effective as using the correct products, individually for each step of paint correction.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it at all!
The down side is that the product may perform less than one hundred percent in one or two of it's intention.
An example is our OEM One Step, a product we originally made exclusively for Ford Motor Co. We are renaming it One Step Polish and Sealant.
It will do light swirl, marring removal, some cleaning and leaves a polymer coating on the surface.
Can be used, in other words, as a polish, with a DA or rotary, or just hand or DA applied as a final sealant.
There are many other firms that make similar products, as there is a large market for such a product.
However, never found any on them, including our own, that is as effective as using the correct products, individually for each step of paint correction.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it at all!
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Re: Think about this --- May 25, 2005 04:35PM |
<HTML>Ketch,
Yeah, it's good you at least call your product Polish AND Sealant.
I personally tend to follow the one product designed for a specific task route for the reason you mentioned.
An example of the popular use of the term "polish" where not technically correct is Zaino Show Car Polish: most precisely a final, pure sealant, no abrasive qualities, just designed solely for protection.</HTML>
Yeah, it's good you at least call your product Polish AND Sealant.
I personally tend to follow the one product designed for a specific task route for the reason you mentioned.
An example of the popular use of the term "polish" where not technically correct is Zaino Show Car Polish: most precisely a final, pure sealant, no abrasive qualities, just designed solely for protection.</HTML>
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Re: Think about this --- May 25, 2005 04:49PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 641 |
<HTML>Bill,
An interesting part of this is as follows.
Most liquid and semi-paste products, at least over 90% on the market, contain two components which could qualify them as "polishes or cleaners".
One is some version or grade of mineral spirits (cleans, provides lubrication, hold the solid content in suspension and carries the solid content to the surface).
Two is that they have some type or form of rare earth or other solids that thicken the product, but also work as fine polishing agents.
Components such kaolin clay, super floss, diatimasous earth, etc.
These do many things, but mainly thickeners and fine polishing agents.
Products that are very clear in liquid form or slightly cloudy in appearance while in liquid, contain very little if any abilties to clean and polish the surface.
Therefore, when using these types of products, on a contaminated or lightly marred or oxidized surface, it is necessary to use a "precleaner/polish/etc" before applying the sealant.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it at all!
An interesting part of this is as follows.
Most liquid and semi-paste products, at least over 90% on the market, contain two components which could qualify them as "polishes or cleaners".
One is some version or grade of mineral spirits (cleans, provides lubrication, hold the solid content in suspension and carries the solid content to the surface).
Two is that they have some type or form of rare earth or other solids that thicken the product, but also work as fine polishing agents.
Components such kaolin clay, super floss, diatimasous earth, etc.
These do many things, but mainly thickeners and fine polishing agents.
Products that are very clear in liquid form or slightly cloudy in appearance while in liquid, contain very little if any abilties to clean and polish the surface.
Therefore, when using these types of products, on a contaminated or lightly marred or oxidized surface, it is necessary to use a "precleaner/polish/etc" before applying the sealant.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it at all!
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Re: Think about this --- May 25, 2005 05:06PM |
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Re: Think about this --- May 25, 2005 05:20PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 641 |
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Re: Think about this --- May 25, 2005 10:18PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 1,838 |
<HTML>While we're on multifunctional cleaners, polishes and sealants, I did something recently that amazed me with with such great results it made me wonder if this is what those bath-tubber companies do.
I had some products left over that weren't enough to do a car or boat, so I consolidated all into a pint size squirt bottle.
What was it in was a marine grade heavy compound; a marine restorer wax; two forms of cleaner wax; two sealants (auto and marine); a swirl remover; and a "quick and easy" maintenance wax.
This concoction was probably too abrasive for a car but I tested it on my backyard gelcoated table and worked like a charm. Then used it on the gunnel/gel-trackings on a boat which left a clean and glossy appearance. Worked even better than a marine cleaner wax I once used.</HTML>
Take care,
Brian
Precision Auto & Marine
Learn to detail boats! Visit www.detailtheboat.com
I had some products left over that weren't enough to do a car or boat, so I consolidated all into a pint size squirt bottle.
What was it in was a marine grade heavy compound; a marine restorer wax; two forms of cleaner wax; two sealants (auto and marine); a swirl remover; and a "quick and easy" maintenance wax.
This concoction was probably too abrasive for a car but I tested it on my backyard gelcoated table and worked like a charm. Then used it on the gunnel/gel-trackings on a boat which left a clean and glossy appearance. Worked even better than a marine cleaner wax I once used.</HTML>
Take care,
Brian
Precision Auto & Marine
Learn to detail boats! Visit www.detailtheboat.com
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Re: Think about this --- May 25, 2005 11:07PM |
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Re: Think about this --- May 26, 2005 01:03AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 237 |
<HTML>The problem is even more difficult over here in the UK, as in Europe we seem to have different definitions to Americans.
For us, the name sealant is reserved for the special long life packages such as Ron's valuegard.
While a wax with no natural waxes is called a synthetic wax...
AutoGlym has a very popular synthetic wax which contains cleaners, they call it Super Resin Polish!
G'laze' seems to be favoured by chemical companies for bodyshop safe products. Most people would assume they are wax free and silicone free... so I don't know what they imagine is in them. (There are a lot of products labled 'silicone free' even tho they ain't, but thats they only way to get spray shops to buy them. Normally you would get hammered for this kind of thing in the UK, but otherwise it does what it says on the tin, so nobody is going to complain).
I would have though that a glaze is either one of these show-shine type quick detailer waxes, which lasts about an hour.
Or a product which covers up and fills in swirls, which would contradict the silicone free ideas of the bodyshop people.
I'm pretty sure that if you looked around, you could find a product of every type which has been misnamed just to give it a snazzy title.</HTML>
For us, the name sealant is reserved for the special long life packages such as Ron's valuegard.
While a wax with no natural waxes is called a synthetic wax...
AutoGlym has a very popular synthetic wax which contains cleaners, they call it Super Resin Polish!
G'laze' seems to be favoured by chemical companies for bodyshop safe products. Most people would assume they are wax free and silicone free... so I don't know what they imagine is in them. (There are a lot of products labled 'silicone free' even tho they ain't, but thats they only way to get spray shops to buy them. Normally you would get hammered for this kind of thing in the UK, but otherwise it does what it says on the tin, so nobody is going to complain).
I would have though that a glaze is either one of these show-shine type quick detailer waxes, which lasts about an hour.
Or a product which covers up and fills in swirls, which would contradict the silicone free ideas of the bodyshop people.
I'm pretty sure that if you looked around, you could find a product of every type which has been misnamed just to give it a snazzy title.</HTML>
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Re: Think about this --- May 26, 2005 02:22AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 241 |
<HTML>Dan,
First of all, synthetic waxes are normally produced from a "resin", a "polymer resin" is you wish.
That is why they can say that. Synthethic Waxes were widely used in the FRP industry up until a few years ago, when most companies switched to a more pure polymer resin for release agents, due their abilities to withstand the high exotherm that gel coat resins create in their curing cycle.
As far at the "silicone" issue, a certain company, that has 3 of the same letters in it's name, years ago created a misconception regarding silicones in the minds of the collison repair industry.
Their mass advertising, marketing targeted "silicone fluids/oils" and rightly.
What they failed to do was explain the difference to the end users of a "siloxane" vs "silicone".
The painters, for the most part, do not know, that the very paint material they are applying, have a "siloxane" content, has to with today's high solid materials.
What you are trying to say, regarding "glazes", I explained, I think, pretty well.
You are right, "glazes" are "makeup", and mostly non silicone oil bearing, "oil's", which will create an opitcal illusion of a swirl free finish.
That get's the car out the door, and when it "evaporates" or is washed off the paint's surface a few days or a week later, the customer doesn't notice it.
People are not that informed about what is really happening, they just want "instant" gratification.
Hummm, sounds like most detailers, "hey, it produces a great shine, I saw it!"
Of course, most don't see the vehicle for a few months and "chalk up" the marring and swirls to the owners poor wash techniques, or the carwash the take it too.
Ketch
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it all!
First of all, synthetic waxes are normally produced from a "resin", a "polymer resin" is you wish.
That is why they can say that. Synthethic Waxes were widely used in the FRP industry up until a few years ago, when most companies switched to a more pure polymer resin for release agents, due their abilities to withstand the high exotherm that gel coat resins create in their curing cycle.
As far at the "silicone" issue, a certain company, that has 3 of the same letters in it's name, years ago created a misconception regarding silicones in the minds of the collison repair industry.
Their mass advertising, marketing targeted "silicone fluids/oils" and rightly.
What they failed to do was explain the difference to the end users of a "siloxane" vs "silicone".
The painters, for the most part, do not know, that the very paint material they are applying, have a "siloxane" content, has to with today's high solid materials.
What you are trying to say, regarding "glazes", I explained, I think, pretty well.
You are right, "glazes" are "makeup", and mostly non silicone oil bearing, "oil's", which will create an opitcal illusion of a swirl free finish.
That get's the car out the door, and when it "evaporates" or is washed off the paint's surface a few days or a week later, the customer doesn't notice it.
People are not that informed about what is really happening, they just want "instant" gratification.
Hummm, sounds like most detailers, "hey, it produces a great shine, I saw it!"
Of course, most don't see the vehicle for a few months and "chalk up" the marring and swirls to the owners poor wash techniques, or the carwash the take it too.
Ketch
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it all!
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Re: Think about this --- May 26, 2005 10:11AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 237 |
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Re: Think about this --- May 26, 2005 03:37PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>In the detailing industry dictionary defintions are not really much help because no one uses them.
And, because chemical companies all use the terms differently a detailer has a problem with defining what it is they are using or what they want to purchase.
Since there is no standard in the industry as to what these terms mean I have always used the following definitions when I conduct seminars and when I talk "shop" with customers or those interested in entering the business with regard to paint finishing chemicals.
First we must talk in terms of process:
1. Correcting
2. Removing swirls and/or polishing
3. Protecting
Chemicals for the process:
1. Correcting - you use compounds
2. Swirl removing you use swirl eliminators (with micro abrasives) or swirl fillers.
Polishing - you can use a swirl eliminator; swirl filler or what a chemical company might call a polish which would be a non-abrasive product designed to smooth the paint and/or create a high shine on the surface
3. Protecting - you can use a wax or paint sealant
GLAZE - I have always defined a glaze as a "body-shop" safe or non-silicone or wax swirl remover/polish.
The reason it is body shop safe is that it does not contain silicone.
A product that was not mentioned here is a ONE STEP PRODUCT. These are formulated to correct, polish and protect in one step using a high speed buffer and polishing pad.
These are not perfect definitions, but they are some definitions that make sense and help two people to communicate when discussing paint finishing chemicals in this industry.
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
And, because chemical companies all use the terms differently a detailer has a problem with defining what it is they are using or what they want to purchase.
Since there is no standard in the industry as to what these terms mean I have always used the following definitions when I conduct seminars and when I talk "shop" with customers or those interested in entering the business with regard to paint finishing chemicals.
First we must talk in terms of process:
1. Correcting
2. Removing swirls and/or polishing
3. Protecting
Chemicals for the process:
1. Correcting - you use compounds
2. Swirl removing you use swirl eliminators (with micro abrasives) or swirl fillers.
Polishing - you can use a swirl eliminator; swirl filler or what a chemical company might call a polish which would be a non-abrasive product designed to smooth the paint and/or create a high shine on the surface
3. Protecting - you can use a wax or paint sealant
GLAZE - I have always defined a glaze as a "body-shop" safe or non-silicone or wax swirl remover/polish.
The reason it is body shop safe is that it does not contain silicone.
A product that was not mentioned here is a ONE STEP PRODUCT. These are formulated to correct, polish and protect in one step using a high speed buffer and polishing pad.
These are not perfect definitions, but they are some definitions that make sense and help two people to communicate when discussing paint finishing chemicals in this industry.
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
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Re: Think about this --- May 26, 2005 04:39PM |
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