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Chemical buffing
Posted by New Again
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Chemical buffing October 26, 2005 12:38AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 146 |
<HTML>Went to Dan loves Tea web site and read a great article on chemical buffing that work that was shown was so amaxing. If I read it right there was hardly no chemical used to reach that quality WORK OUTSTANDIN DAN AND WILLY</HTML>
WE DON'T USE THE "F-WORD" YA KNOW "FREE" A M.O.B BUSINESS
WE DON'T USE THE "F-WORD" YA KNOW "FREE" A M.O.B BUSINESS
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Re: Chemical buffing October 26, 2005 10:46AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 237 |
<HTML>Thanks NA,
I have to say that all I did was take the photos and write the articles:-
<a href="[www.clean-image.co.uk]; target="_blank">TVR Swirl Marks</a><br>
<a href="[www.clean-image.co.uk] Restoration</a><br>
<a href="[www.clean-image.co.uk] Morning Japan</a><br>
<span class="bodytext"> <a href="[www.clean-image.co.uk] splatter fallout removal + Paint Restoration & PDR</a></span> <br>
<br>
In answer to your e-mail, I do have another article in the pipeline that will explain the AllPad system and the diference between physical buffing and chemical buffing. Unfortunately, I have 6 web sites to complete before I can go back to it, so it may not be until after christmas.
Essentially, 'physical buffing' uses the abrasive effects of compounds to buff the car, while this system mostly uses polishes which are lubricants for the mops (both wool and foam). These polishes hold the heat created buy the friction of the pads - heat plays a major part in the system and very scarry tempratures are generated!
It's the various buffing pads that do most of the cutting, most of the time, but it's not completely true to say that no abrasives are used - it all depends on the car you are buffing, on a few occasions we have had cause to use 'extra heavy duty' which comes out of the bottle like wet sand! (okay, so thats a bit of an exageration, but it IS very coarse) EHD reduces really well and when you work it for a period of time, it can actually give a really good polished finish for a heavy compound.
The system has ben developed in Sweden and Although <a href="[www.allbritecarcareproducts.com]; is an American company, I'm not sure if it's available in the US yet as they may not have anyone to demo it.
I'll send some e-mails and let you know...
Danny.</HTML>
I have to say that all I did was take the photos and write the articles:-
<a href="[www.clean-image.co.uk]; target="_blank">TVR Swirl Marks</a><br>
<a href="[www.clean-image.co.uk] Restoration</a><br>
<a href="[www.clean-image.co.uk] Morning Japan</a><br>
<span class="bodytext"> <a href="[www.clean-image.co.uk] splatter fallout removal + Paint Restoration & PDR</a></span> <br>
<br>
In answer to your e-mail, I do have another article in the pipeline that will explain the AllPad system and the diference between physical buffing and chemical buffing. Unfortunately, I have 6 web sites to complete before I can go back to it, so it may not be until after christmas.
Essentially, 'physical buffing' uses the abrasive effects of compounds to buff the car, while this system mostly uses polishes which are lubricants for the mops (both wool and foam). These polishes hold the heat created buy the friction of the pads - heat plays a major part in the system and very scarry tempratures are generated!
It's the various buffing pads that do most of the cutting, most of the time, but it's not completely true to say that no abrasives are used - it all depends on the car you are buffing, on a few occasions we have had cause to use 'extra heavy duty' which comes out of the bottle like wet sand! (okay, so thats a bit of an exageration, but it IS very coarse) EHD reduces really well and when you work it for a period of time, it can actually give a really good polished finish for a heavy compound.
The system has ben developed in Sweden and Although <a href="[www.allbritecarcareproducts.com]; is an American company, I'm not sure if it's available in the US yet as they may not have anyone to demo it.
I'll send some e-mails and let you know...
Danny.</HTML>
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Re: Chemical buffing October 26, 2005 06:11PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 1 |
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Re: Chemical buffing October 26, 2005 07:37PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 15 |
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Re: Chemical buffing October 31, 2005 01:31AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>JJ is the owner of All Brite which is a small chemical company, compared with Auto Magic, Pro and Care Brite which you must consider the Big 3 in the USA.
As I have attempt to tell detailers, detail chemicals are, for the most part, a commodity.
That is, if you compare apples to apples you will get about the same thing from every company.
Nothing magic. Chemical companies work hard in their marketing to get you to believe that they have something "really" different. But alas the truth is that few have anything that is really different.
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
As I have attempt to tell detailers, detail chemicals are, for the most part, a commodity.
That is, if you compare apples to apples you will get about the same thing from every company.
Nothing magic. Chemical companies work hard in their marketing to get you to believe that they have something "really" different. But alas the truth is that few have anything that is really different.
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
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Re: Chemical buffing November 07, 2005 01:52PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 9 |
<HTML>If I understand the article correctly, chemical buffing removes a fraction of the painted surface that physical buffing removes. However, using much higher rpm and with the heat generated with this technique, is it much easier to burn through the paint than physical buffing? I usually use OP with a variable speed buffer set at around 1200-1400 rpm to remove swirls, oxd. and light scratches. With the much higher rpm mentioned in the article, it makes me a bit nervous. However, with the results that were shown it's hard to dispute the capabilities of this technique while keeping in mind the well experienced buffmeister. Incredible job by the way.
Regards,
Matt Williams</HTML>
Regards,
Matt Williams</HTML>
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Re: Chemical buffing November 07, 2005 03:12PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 641 |
<HTML>The use of high heat when buffing was just fine until the advent of high solid clears.
As far back as 1992, BASF, 3M, Ford and Ingersall Rand produced testing that showed, without a doubt, that heating these high solid clears above 115F will cause thermal stressing of the clear and promote premature failure.
This information is documented in an SAE paper produced at the time.
You may reference it from the magazine tech article regarding modern clears and heat on our Automotive International web site.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it at all!
As far back as 1992, BASF, 3M, Ford and Ingersall Rand produced testing that showed, without a doubt, that heating these high solid clears above 115F will cause thermal stressing of the clear and promote premature failure.
This information is documented in an SAE paper produced at the time.
You may reference it from the magazine tech article regarding modern clears and heat on our Automotive International web site.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it at all!
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Re: Chemical buffing November 08, 2005 12:41AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 237 |
<HTML>I don't live in a very hot country Ron, but I'm pretty sure that it's fairly common for car bodywork to get that hot in the summer sun. I would hope that clears have improved somewhat since 1992 if this was the case.
<a href="[www.clean-image.co.uk]; target="_blank"><font size="1" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Clean Image Car Valeting - Auto detailing in the UK. </font></a></HTML>
<a href="[www.clean-image.co.uk]; target="_blank"><font size="1" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Clean Image Car Valeting - Auto detailing in the UK. </font></a></HTML>
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Re: Chemical buffing November 09, 2005 02:33PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 641 |
<HTML>Very large difference between the "total and even" heating of the vehicles panels by the sun and the "localized" high heat created by a buffer.
Uneven expansion of the substrate as well as the paint system, creates thermal stressing, resulting in down the road cracking and crazing.
Why do you think almost all Ming franchises are gone here in the states.
They destroyed more automotive paint finishes than you can imagine.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it at all!
Uneven expansion of the substrate as well as the paint system, creates thermal stressing, resulting in down the road cracking and crazing.
Why do you think almost all Ming franchises are gone here in the states.
They destroyed more automotive paint finishes than you can imagine.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it at all!
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Re: Chemical buffing November 11, 2005 02:16PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 237 |
<HTML>If what you say is true, then large sections of our industry are in trouble!
but it doesn't seem to be playing out that way. When our dent guys get dents that are on a very curved area, they use heat guns and really make the panel hot, like-wise, smart repair technicians are using red-lamps to heat panels in localized repair, the new paints that the smart repair guys are using require this... in fact over the last year I have been spammed silly with adverts for hot lamps by smart repair supply companies.
And then you have people using steam machines and heat guns to remove vinyl lettering. And this chemical buffing process has been in operation for over two years.
We have applied heat in one way or another to hundreds of cars over the years, and we see these customer bring cars back again and again, yet I have never seen paint failure, cracking or otherwise on areas we have worked on.
I'm not sure the paint those companies tested is the same as the paint we are seeing now, but either way, I don't really see much reason for concern as the methods we have used for years, and continue to use don't give us any problems.
In fact, appart from a 1930's Buggatti, the only time I have ever seen cracking or crazing has been due to serious contamination damage, bird lime etc.
<a href="[www.clean-image.co.uk]; target="_blank"><font size="1" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Clean Image Car Valeting - Auto detailing in the UK. </font></a></HTML>
but it doesn't seem to be playing out that way. When our dent guys get dents that are on a very curved area, they use heat guns and really make the panel hot, like-wise, smart repair technicians are using red-lamps to heat panels in localized repair, the new paints that the smart repair guys are using require this... in fact over the last year I have been spammed silly with adverts for hot lamps by smart repair supply companies.
And then you have people using steam machines and heat guns to remove vinyl lettering. And this chemical buffing process has been in operation for over two years.
We have applied heat in one way or another to hundreds of cars over the years, and we see these customer bring cars back again and again, yet I have never seen paint failure, cracking or otherwise on areas we have worked on.
I'm not sure the paint those companies tested is the same as the paint we are seeing now, but either way, I don't really see much reason for concern as the methods we have used for years, and continue to use don't give us any problems.
In fact, appart from a 1930's Buggatti, the only time I have ever seen cracking or crazing has been due to serious contamination damage, bird lime etc.
<a href="[www.clean-image.co.uk]; target="_blank"><font size="1" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Clean Image Car Valeting - Auto detailing in the UK. </font></a></HTML>
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Re: Chemical buffing November 11, 2005 05:40PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 641 |
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Re: Chemical buffing November 12, 2005 01:09AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>But Ron we know the automanufactures say a lot of things and their only reason for saying them is to protect themselves against warranty claims.
Personally I find a great deal of the information put out by the automanufacturers have some basis in fact, but if you look between the lines they are very, very conservative and lean toward the side of what will mitigate our warranty losses.
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
Personally I find a great deal of the information put out by the automanufacturers have some basis in fact, but if you look between the lines they are very, very conservative and lean toward the side of what will mitigate our warranty losses.
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
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Re: Chemical buffing November 12, 2005 06:09AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 866 |
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Re: Chemical buffing November 12, 2005 07:32AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
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Re: Chemical buffing November 12, 2005 02:58PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 641 |
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Re: Chemical buffing November 12, 2005 03:05PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 641 |
<HTML>If you were in their posistion, would you not as well?
Oh, as a matter of fact I am sure you do.
With around 35,000,000 new vehicles being produced each year, across the globe, consider the amount of warranty liability that manufacturers must assume.
In the past 6 or 7 years, vehicle manufacturers started watching paint, trim etc warranty numbers much more closely.
This more "watchful" eye, dictated a change in their posistion.
Be it putting the wrong oil in the motor, or not changing a belt or the oil by the required schedule published, they may reject honoring of a warranty.
The same is true of paint warranty, and look for it to be even more strongly enforced as they battle dropping sales, shutting of plants, etc.
In my meetings over the past two weeks with 5 import and 2 domestic manufacturers, paint warranty vs CSI was a main discussion point in all meetings.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it at all!
Oh, as a matter of fact I am sure you do.
With around 35,000,000 new vehicles being produced each year, across the globe, consider the amount of warranty liability that manufacturers must assume.
In the past 6 or 7 years, vehicle manufacturers started watching paint, trim etc warranty numbers much more closely.
This more "watchful" eye, dictated a change in their posistion.
Be it putting the wrong oil in the motor, or not changing a belt or the oil by the required schedule published, they may reject honoring of a warranty.
The same is true of paint warranty, and look for it to be even more strongly enforced as they battle dropping sales, shutting of plants, etc.
In my meetings over the past two weeks with 5 import and 2 domestic manufacturers, paint warranty vs CSI was a main discussion point in all meetings.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it at all!
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Re: Chemical buffing November 13, 2005 01:22AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Then, as I suspected, as many others on this forum might have believed too, "what the manufacturers tell us really is not that accurate, it is only stated to protect them from warranty claims?'
So why should we put in credance in what their tests and what they say when it is all about them "protecting their arces?"
Like, they tell you to not put acid on wheels. This is something that detailers have done forever. That chemical companies like yours have sold forever.
So, who is right? Chemical companies? Detailers? Or the all-powerful auto manufacturers?
Really want to know as you seem to have such an inside track with these people, what are we to believe?
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
So why should we put in credance in what their tests and what they say when it is all about them "protecting their arces?"
Like, they tell you to not put acid on wheels. This is something that detailers have done forever. That chemical companies like yours have sold forever.
So, who is right? Chemical companies? Detailers? Or the all-powerful auto manufacturers?
Really want to know as you seem to have such an inside track with these people, what are we to believe?
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
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Re: Chemical buffing November 13, 2005 04:46AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 118 |
<HTML>It is good what the manufacturers tell us, but you have to do your own research on a lot of these matters to come up with answers/solutions that work for you. I really enjoyed the piece that Ketch is referring to in regards to the results of using too much heat during buffing. If you spend a lot of time taking scratches out of new cars like I do the articles and visuals he is talking about spell it out very well. You have to have an open mind about some of this stuff, but that doesn't mean you have to participate. Bud, I don't know what it is between you and ketch that seems to irritate you, is it friendly? or do you have something against him you would like to share with us, because you seem to want to share some of it with us anyway!</HTML>
Detailing, An Art In Motion!
Detailing, An Art In Motion!
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Re: Chemical buffing November 13, 2005 05:24AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 751 |
<HTML>I would take the information from an OEM over anybody else anyday . Things like Tech Service Bulletins will give you more accurate information, backed up with facts, then you will get anywhere else.
You know that when you get a tech bulletin it has been written by an engineer or other qualified professional who understands the constantly changing materials the the OEMs work with and these TSB's are backed with facts. The quality of TSB will vary depending on the manufacturer I admit.
Jim Hammill.</HTML>
You know that when you get a tech bulletin it has been written by an engineer or other qualified professional who understands the constantly changing materials the the OEMs work with and these TSB's are backed with facts. The quality of TSB will vary depending on the manufacturer I admit.
Jim Hammill.</HTML>
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Re: Chemical buffing November 13, 2005 07:58AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Stephen:
There is nothing between Ron and I, as far as I am concerned, other than some friendly jousting.
He has his opinions and I have mine, that is all.
Do not mean to present anything more than that in the postings. If it seems that way it is unintentional.
I will be sure to watch the tone of my postings in the future.
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
There is nothing between Ron and I, as far as I am concerned, other than some friendly jousting.
He has his opinions and I have mine, that is all.
Do not mean to present anything more than that in the postings. If it seems that way it is unintentional.
I will be sure to watch the tone of my postings in the future.
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
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Re: Chemical buffing November 13, 2005 07:58AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Stephen:
There is nothing between Ron and I, as far as I am concerned, other than some friendly jousting.
He has his opinions and I have mine, that is all.
Do not mean to present anything more than that in the postings. If it seems that way it is unintentional.
I will be sure to watch the tone of my postings in the future.
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
There is nothing between Ron and I, as far as I am concerned, other than some friendly jousting.
He has his opinions and I have mine, that is all.
Do not mean to present anything more than that in the postings. If it seems that way it is unintentional.
I will be sure to watch the tone of my postings in the future.
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
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Re: Chemical buffing November 14, 2005 01:50PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 641 |
<HTML>I think if people would think of the subject in this manner, they might get the point.
A person sends several hundred dollars for a designer suit, blended high dollar wool, etc, they really wanted.
It is time to have it cleaned.
They read the "owners manual", IE the label that says how to clean it.
They don't have the expertise nor the materials, equipment to do the cleaning.
They send it to a "professional cleaning establishment".
The professional cleaners read the "owners manual" and have training regarding the use of cleaning chemicals, etc.
They do a professional job, the customer pays them, everyone is happy and the suit is not damaged.
However, if the owner of the suit or the "cleaner" decided that they have their own knowledge, and just through it in a washing machine and then a dryer, the suit will not be the same, the results much less than satisfactory.
The suit is junk, the customer is unhappy, etc.
That is why manuals, instructions, etc are published, after extentsive testing, by the manufacturer.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it at all!
A person sends several hundred dollars for a designer suit, blended high dollar wool, etc, they really wanted.
It is time to have it cleaned.
They read the "owners manual", IE the label that says how to clean it.
They don't have the expertise nor the materials, equipment to do the cleaning.
They send it to a "professional cleaning establishment".
The professional cleaners read the "owners manual" and have training regarding the use of cleaning chemicals, etc.
They do a professional job, the customer pays them, everyone is happy and the suit is not damaged.
However, if the owner of the suit or the "cleaner" decided that they have their own knowledge, and just through it in a washing machine and then a dryer, the suit will not be the same, the results much less than satisfactory.
The suit is junk, the customer is unhappy, etc.
That is why manuals, instructions, etc are published, after extentsive testing, by the manufacturer.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it at all!
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Re: Chemical buffing November 17, 2005 03:55PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 237 |
<HTML>I wish Ford had done some "extensive testing" on the leather and foam of this upholstery I just saw before they decided it build it into their cars!
<a href="[www.clean-image.co.uk]; target="_blank"><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="1">Clean Image Car Valeting - Auto detailing in the UK.</font></a></HTML>
<a href="[www.clean-image.co.uk]; target="_blank"><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="1">Clean Image Car Valeting - Auto detailing in the UK.</font></a></HTML>
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Re: Chemical buffing November 17, 2005 06:33PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 243 |
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Re: Chemical buffing November 17, 2005 06:39PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 641 |
<HTML>The "bean counters" have heavy influence these days.
They look at the actuary tables, decide to have assembly go with a cheaper grade of "whatever", be it paint, sealers, fabric, etc and factor in the "warranty costs vs initial dollars saved.
They, at all the manufacturers have done this for years, on their lower priced models, some mid range and upper range as well.
It is sad but true, and the consumer has little recourse.
Engineers and test labs can scream and throw things, but the 'bean counters" usually win out, until sales are affected, CSI goes in the shitter, then they let the engineers have some say for a little while.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it at all!
They look at the actuary tables, decide to have assembly go with a cheaper grade of "whatever", be it paint, sealers, fabric, etc and factor in the "warranty costs vs initial dollars saved.
They, at all the manufacturers have done this for years, on their lower priced models, some mid range and upper range as well.
It is sad but true, and the consumer has little recourse.
Engineers and test labs can scream and throw things, but the 'bean counters" usually win out, until sales are affected, CSI goes in the shitter, then they let the engineers have some say for a little while.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it at all!
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