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do it yourself or pro advice

Posted by Chad Cunningham 
do it yourself or pro advice
April 18, 2006 01:52PM
<HTML>
Hi,

I have a 2003 lexus IS 300, black of course, with a paint job that needs help. Due to some long term renovation projects, our garage has been full of stuff for a while now and the car has been parked outside and neglected. Currently it has two significant problems. The car is pretty badly spiderwebbed, in the sun it looks terrible all over. Yeah, I've been lazy on the proper washing techniques... Secondly, it has a fair number of scuffs on the body in various areas, I don't know what they are from, but they are only in the clear and show up and look like areas that were rubbed with something...

I'd like to get the paint restored to a like new finish and get it back in the garage. It's really driving me crazy that it looks so bad, and sealants only do so much to hide the damage.

It seems to properly fix the paint, I'd need to do something like Meguiars #2 with a rotary buffer. But from what I can tell that setup would cost quite a bit and leave room for me to screw things up nicely, and it'd probably be cheaper and safer to have it done with a pro.

My question is, is there any chance I can improve the situation myself without a large capital investment? For example, if I apply the #2 by hand, will I be able to get any decent results? I know it would be a whole lot of work, so I'm curious as to if it's even worth trying before I strain my arm...

I don't mind taking it to a pro to get it done, but I don't know anyone around here I would trust to do it right... I'd almost rather go buy a buffer and try it myself... But since there seem to be a lot of pros here, does anyone know someone good in the central ohio area?</HTML>
Re: do it yourself or pro advice
April 19, 2006 02:12AM
<HTML>#2 is meant to used with a rotary buffer or the polishes won,t be able to breakdown properly,surely there must be someone who is qualified to do the job in your area, if not the go to ketchs site www.autoint.com and look under find a detailer in the ohio area. A real pro job on a neglected black auto will be $200 to $300 ,at least thats what i charge. good luck</HTML>
Re: do it yourself or pro advice
April 19, 2006 03:45AM
<HTML>From what you describe this is only a job that a professional detailer can do for you.

Whether you think a detailer will "screw it up" or not, what makes you think that you, with no real experience would not do the same.

Why not take it to the Lexus dealer at least you have some recourse if you do not like the job.

Where are you located? Maybe someone on the forum can help you.

Be sure that anyone that does the car follows these procedures:

1. Rotary buffer with poly/wool or foam pad at no more than 1000 rpm
Micro-Fine or at most light compound

2. Followed by a Rotary Buffer with a foam polishing pad at no more than
1000 rpm
Swirl Remover polish, not filler

3. Final protection a wax or paint sealant applied by hand or with an
orbital waxer.

If these procedures are not followed you will not get the flawless finish you want. If they use more aggressive pads or more aggressive compounds than suggested you will probably get swirl scratches in the paint. And if they do not use a foam polishing pad and a swirl remover vs a swirl filler the swirls will come back when the car is washed a few times.

When you speak to a potential detailer do not ask them YES or NO questions but make them tell you the process they will follow to correct your paint.

Let me know the results. And, by the way, do not assume the Lexus dealer will have professional detailers. Often dealership detailers are some of the worst.

Regards
Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS</HTML>



buda
Re: do it yourself or pro advice
April 20, 2006 03:12AM
<HTML>
I wonder if people feel same away about dentist and doctors. Got a cavity just use a dremel and some cement... Lets save a large capital investment</HTML>
Re: do it yourself or pro advice
April 20, 2006 01:45PM
<HTML>
I don't think the dentist comment is really a fair comparison. I mean, I'd have no idea how to fix a cavity. I have no anesthetic I can use. I can't just look that up. There are, however, several fairly good guides online to this sort of car care. And let's face it, it's not as complicated as medecine... It takes experience and skill to do properly, but the only way to get that experience and skill is to take the plunge and just do it.

Really guys, how did you learn? You just did it right? You probably screwed up at some points, each time learning something new. Nobody is born with the knowledge on how to restore automotive paint, and if it's a terrible idea for anyone to just try it and learn the skills, there wouldn't be any pros around to do it either.

Also you'll note, I said I had no problem paying someone to do it. Seeing as it would probably cost about the same as what it would cost me to buy equipment to do it myself, that's not really a factor. My main concern is I have no idea who would do good work on my car. Sure, I can ask them questions, maybe they'll have all the right answers, but does that mean they'll do a good job? When choosing a 'professional' without any sort of references, you're taking a risk. I don't know anyone around here well enough to know what kind of work they do, nor can I find anyone I know who has had someone do this kind of work.

I'd rather just pay someone to do it right now. If I had a beater car around, I'd experiment and practice and learn to do it myself, I enjoy that sort of thing. But I don't have the time right now to go there and I'd rather not experiment on my car. But without some sort of word of mouth recommendation from someone who has had this type of work done, I'm taking a risk picking any 'pro' to do it.</HTML>
Re: do it yourself or pro advice
April 20, 2006 02:33PM
<HTML>Everything you say about finding a competent detailer holds true for finding a competent dentist. How do you know if he is competent or not? It is only after he/she does the work that you know if they are any good, and even then it is not the case.

Why do you assume that detailers learn their trade by the school of hard knocks?

There are numerous places where a detailer can get training?

Detailing, whether you think so or not, is more than "shining shoes."

It takes knowledge of paint finishes from the Factory Assembly Line Paint Systems; to the After Assembly Line Paint Systems to the Aftermarket Paint Systems; identification of paint finish problems and the ability to solve the problem without damaging the paint in the process of correcting it. Knowing which tools; pads and chemicals to use.

Can you identify a single stage paint from a base coat/clear coat? Do you know if a vehicle has a tri-coat or a tinted clear coat?

Yes, you can obtain all this knowledge, but after having the knowledge you have to put it to use.

If you want to be a DIYourselfer, no problem, use a bottle of Turtle Wax; a bottle of Armorall and some Windex glass cleaner and a little Lexol and you have got all you need to take care of your vehicle. These companies flourish by selling to the consumer who wants to maintain their own car.

That is the key word, here, MAINTENANCE. From what you describe your car needs RESTORATION. And, you need to find a competent and knowledgeable detailer.

As stated, the quest to find same is no different than trying to find a competent dentist or doctor. How do you know that they are going to do a good job until after they do the work. The medical and dental professions are fraught with incompetent people who do shoddy dental work, operate on the wrong leg, or leave instruments inside people, etc.

Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>



buda
Re: do it yourself or pro advice
April 20, 2006 04:01PM
<HTML>Ha! Ha! ....I love this industry...people would never perceive their laywers or doctors in the same way they perceive us. ...or even speak to them in the same manner.

Just this morning I had a client with gasoline spill who wanted me to shampoo out his carpeting...I began to explain to him the the reasons why we could not do so...His immediate response "I am a chemist" I know about gasoline...that may be so but do you know how it works and reacts on rubber and olefin carpeting, on sound deadner under the carpeting?

The short of it...for the last 10 days he has been utilizing all his knowledge of chemistry to fabrezee, add club soda, vinegar, baking soda with limited results... Not only has he compounded the problem but has made an unholy mess.

He still thinks he knows everything about chemistry and can direct the scope of work.</HTML>
Re: do it yourself or pro advice
April 20, 2006 04:47PM
<HTML>Gina:

If I have talked to one of these types I have talked to hundreds of them.

In another vein, I get the wealthy corporate types who call wanting to go into the detail or carwash business and when I speak to them of the labor problems of either industry I get, "Look I have managed Fortune 500 corporation depts, I know how to manage people."

The problem is that there is a huge difference, as you and I know, between managing people with college degrees who understand what you are telling them, and people who have to work for minimum wage. All to often these Fortune 500 types fail because they do not know what they don't know and are too proud to listen.

Keep up the good work.

Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>



buda
Re: do it yourself or pro advice
April 20, 2006 05:48PM
<HTML>Unfortunately I talk with hundred of them also…and their arrogance knows no boundaries.. many people today define themselves by their positions their value and self worth is in the title they bear. They also perceive the detailing industry and by extension the people who work within it intellectually inferior and confuse service with “servility”. Of course many detailers do little to diminish this image.

They want to dispense with people immediately me me now instant gratification, don’t tell me anything just give me what I need for the price I think you are worth. In other words if you are a lawyer you are in an appropriate category of service that should be compensated… if you are a restaurant or a wine that will elevate them to a certain level they will pay and ingratiate themselves with the sommelier to have him serve them vinegar..


While they claim to be managing people in fortune 500 companies we can see the effect of their management style in loss of hundreds of jobs in the usa the lack of a loyal workforce and poor standards overall…</HTML>
Re: do it yourself or pro advice
April 20, 2006 06:03PM
<HTML>
Yes, I know there is professional training for detailing, but as you say:

"Yes, you can obtain all this knowledge, but after having the knowledge you have to put it to use."

That was my point, Even with professional training, at some point a detailer has to put the buffer to the car and do it. You can learn a lot about detailing in a classroom, but you get the skill to do a good job by practice. Certainly someone who has an instructor standing next to him showing him the technique will pick things up faster, but that doesn't mean a guy experimenting on his own couldn't become just as competent, albiet with more mistakes and more time.

Anyway, again, I'd love to find someone to do it for me. But as I'm sure you all know, there are plenty of people out there who will tell you whatever it takes to get your money, and do a half assed job on a car.

If someone is going to screw up my car, I'd rather it be me smiling smiley

As for the doctor, I found my doctor by asking people who they saw and how they liked him. It's the same technique as I would like to use to find a detailer , except for the fact that while almost everyone sees a doctor, very few people have paint restoration done...</HTML>
Re: do it yourself or pro advice
April 20, 2006 06:09PM
<HTML>Unfortunately competency cannot be achieved by working on one automobile.</HTML>
Re: do it yourself or pro advice
April 21, 2006 03:07AM
<HTML>Ever seen a dog chasing it's tail?</HTML>



Detailing, An Art In Motion!
Re: do it yourself or pro advice
April 21, 2006 12:58PM
<HTML>
Very true smiling smiley

All this talk about clients who are a pain and second guess everything a detailer does... I don't know if that's being aimed at me or not, if so I'm not sure how I gave that impression...

I do web design and development for a living. I deal with the same type of people, who seem to know better than I do what makes a good website and who want me to do their bidding NOW. I get people who want an application designed but don't really know what it should do, and then can't understand why when they add on last minute requirements, things don't work very well... Luckily the joy of being a small business is that I can pick and choose my clients and not deal with those who look like they're more trouble than they're worth...

Anyway, my work has a lot of parallels with detailing, both are a skill that is learned through experience and something that many people thing they can do on their own. I've seen plenty of work at home mom types that pick up a copy of dreamweaver, read a few basic html tutorials, and call themselves web designers. The results of their work, to my eyes, is laughable.

But, on the other hand, I've seen people who no real experience who take the time to read up on proper web design techniques, research issues such as modern styling, cross browser compatability, search engine optimization, brand marketing, etc. These people who take the time to really learn about what they are trying to do can often produce a decent result. No, it's not as good as what I can do, but to the average untrained eye it's pretty good.

I look at detailing in a similar way. If someone goes out and buys an orbital buffer, uses the mildest products they can find, does the research and works carefully, I believe they can probably get a decent result. Is it going to be as good as what a pro with years of experience could do? No, of course not. Are they likely to ruin their car? Probably not. Is their car likely to look a fair bit better than before? Pretty good chance. Is it worth it to even bother? Depends on the person and their reasons for wanting to try it...

Now if that person goes out and buys a rotary buffer, a strong abrasive product, and just dives right in, well, that would probably end badly...</HTML>
Re: do it yourself or pro advice
April 21, 2006 02:54PM
<HTML>Was not aiming anything at you...just trying to explain that reading some instructions and actually doing the work is another.

We have been doing this for over 20 years and we still consult on every job in terms of approach...if the vehicle is bad we will test out several products pads and see which yeilds the best results and and continune modify and adjust as we proceed with the work. On cars that have paint defects, the layperson does not have a body of cumulative experience to understand or to know what can be achieved... There are nuances to the texture of the paint, scratching, oxidation and general overall condition ...what a professional can do is look at it very much like a dematalogist would in assesing the dermis of your skin and know what can and cannot be done to improve the appearance without causing further damage

Autodetailing is similar to web designing in that there is an artistic and creative aspect to the work... for detailers acutely keen we are looking for a certain look and when have achieved it we know that that is IT!!

When I look at a web page designers work i look at it from an entirely artistic approach...a web page should be like a magazine cover if it does not speak to you it will not hold the attention of the reader.. the fact that you can put bells and whistles is secondary it is the overall concept and look that is important to me.</HTML>
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