Welcome!
» Log In
» Create A New Profile
Home
>
Auto Detailing: Secrets of the Experts
>
Topic
Ethical?
Posted by Superior Shine Dtl
|
Ethical? May 26, 2005 06:13AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 35 |
<HTML>In the June 2005 issue of Carwashing & detailing magazine Mr. Abraham wrote an article, "How to generate more revenue".
I have yet to read it but on page 101 of his article there is a picture of my van next to one of my clients 745IL. The business name on the side of my van has been whited out.
Hey where did they get that pic?
Superior Shine-Covina, Ca.
Please join me in giving thanks to our men and women who serve in the name of our freedom and cannot be home with their families. Please include them in your prayers.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2007 02:36PM by Superior Shine Dtl.
I have yet to read it but on page 101 of his article there is a picture of my van next to one of my clients 745IL. The business name on the side of my van has been whited out.
Hey where did they get that pic?
Superior Shine-Covina, Ca.
Please join me in giving thanks to our men and women who serve in the name of our freedom and cannot be home with their families. Please include them in your prayers.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2007 02:36PM by Superior Shine Dtl.
|
Re: Ethical? May 26, 2005 10:06AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 237 |
<HTML>I was onto the lawers this week, along with the UK patents office and several other govenment backed organizations to brush up on my law, because my job within the company is 90% marketing and publicity, and we do get 'issues'.
Strictly speaking, they can probably get away with this... i certainly wouldn't risk going to court over as you may have sent them the photo and they did block out your company name.
But as a question of ethics, it is a bit of a stinker! They shouldn't have done it, and the very least they should have done was credited you for the picture... which in my opinion would actually be worse because then you have your name associated with an article that you might not agree with! This is why they should ask permission first.
As you know Joe, I asked permission to use one of your photos on my web site, and I gave you full credit, and linked to your site from the article, as I have done with several other photos on my site from other people. If I hadn't asked permission, then the worst I could expect is a C&D, Cease and desist letter, asking me to take them down or face a battle in the courts. But as I only use 3rd party photos on articles and not advertizing, then nobody is able to argue (or at least they would have a tough time) that I caused them loss of revene, so even if it did go to court, the worst I could expect is an order to remove the photos and court costs... there would be no fine or compensation.
Copyright is an automatic right these days, but its such a minefield that I used to take advantage of it with large companies like Rover and BMW, knowing the company I was working for could make a buck or two until the arrival of the C&D letter.
If I were you, a friendly chat with the editor might be in order... I would phone and not write a letter. Keep in mind that this is not a Conran Black, and the guy it trying to make a living out of a trade magazine... stock photos are very expensive and he is probably trying to save money. I have seen your photos Joe, and they are pretty darn good. Maybe you can strike up a realtionship? See what he has to offer... I'm not sure if free advertizing in their paper is worth anything too you.
My company produces up to 300 photos a week, I'm sure they are worth something to somebody if bought by the thousand.</HTML>
Strictly speaking, they can probably get away with this... i certainly wouldn't risk going to court over as you may have sent them the photo and they did block out your company name.
But as a question of ethics, it is a bit of a stinker! They shouldn't have done it, and the very least they should have done was credited you for the picture... which in my opinion would actually be worse because then you have your name associated with an article that you might not agree with! This is why they should ask permission first.
As you know Joe, I asked permission to use one of your photos on my web site, and I gave you full credit, and linked to your site from the article, as I have done with several other photos on my site from other people. If I hadn't asked permission, then the worst I could expect is a C&D, Cease and desist letter, asking me to take them down or face a battle in the courts. But as I only use 3rd party photos on articles and not advertizing, then nobody is able to argue (or at least they would have a tough time) that I caused them loss of revene, so even if it did go to court, the worst I could expect is an order to remove the photos and court costs... there would be no fine or compensation.
Copyright is an automatic right these days, but its such a minefield that I used to take advantage of it with large companies like Rover and BMW, knowing the company I was working for could make a buck or two until the arrival of the C&D letter.
If I were you, a friendly chat with the editor might be in order... I would phone and not write a letter. Keep in mind that this is not a Conran Black, and the guy it trying to make a living out of a trade magazine... stock photos are very expensive and he is probably trying to save money. I have seen your photos Joe, and they are pretty darn good. Maybe you can strike up a realtionship? See what he has to offer... I'm not sure if free advertizing in their paper is worth anything too you.
My company produces up to 300 photos a week, I'm sure they are worth something to somebody if bought by the thousand.</HTML>
|
Re: Ethical? May 26, 2005 10:36AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 237 |
<HTML>
I was thinking about the write up you did for the Megs forum. Which was over a year ago now. It worries me that forum pages have a limited shelf life, as they do delete old ones every now and again to save space.
I hope you still have these photos on your computer!
I'd like to see you find a more permanent home for this write-up as I often refer people to it as a photographic example of exactly what is possible and what detailing should really be about.
...aside from that, it probably isn't really working for you where it is, as anybody hanging out on the Meguiars forum is likely to want to buff thier own car rather than hire your services.
It's high time that somebody started a thread on using the web as a marketing tool don't you think?</HTML>
I was thinking about the write up you did for the Megs forum. Which was over a year ago now. It worries me that forum pages have a limited shelf life, as they do delete old ones every now and again to save space.
I hope you still have these photos on your computer!
I'd like to see you find a more permanent home for this write-up as I often refer people to it as a photographic example of exactly what is possible and what detailing should really be about.
...aside from that, it probably isn't really working for you where it is, as anybody hanging out on the Meguiars forum is likely to want to buff thier own car rather than hire your services.
It's high time that somebody started a thread on using the web as a marketing tool don't you think?</HTML>
|
Re: Ethical? May 26, 2005 03:18PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Jose:
If you are inferring that I used that photo, let the record know that I submit written articles, and in 95% of the cases, do not submit photos unless the magazine asks me for specific photos. If I do submit photos they are my own photos and not those of other companies as I am well aware of copywrite laws, etc.
If you have an issue about your photos being used I think you ought to take it up directly with the magazine and not post it publicly on a forum.
Further, I believe that when you do a story and submit photos for a magazine the story and the photos become "their property" unless you make an agreement otherwise. I could be wrong but I remember signing an agreement with a magazine to that effect.
You can either check with the magazine or with your attorney where youwould bet get advise than on a detailer's forum.
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
If you are inferring that I used that photo, let the record know that I submit written articles, and in 95% of the cases, do not submit photos unless the magazine asks me for specific photos. If I do submit photos they are my own photos and not those of other companies as I am well aware of copywrite laws, etc.
If you have an issue about your photos being used I think you ought to take it up directly with the magazine and not post it publicly on a forum.
Further, I believe that when you do a story and submit photos for a magazine the story and the photos become "their property" unless you make an agreement otherwise. I could be wrong but I remember signing an agreement with a magazine to that effect.
You can either check with the magazine or with your attorney where youwould bet get advise than on a detailer's forum.
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
|
Re: Ethical? May 26, 2005 09:10PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 1,838 |
<HTML>Joe,
Unless you signed a release, those are your pictures. It wasn't Bud's wrongdoing but the magazines for miscommunication. Like he said, they probably thought it was a stock photo and used it. I'd be more honored than concerned if my photo was used.
I wrote an article for PC&D magazine and it ended up in American Clean Car. Was baffled but happy it made publishing.
Back to the photo, I check it on Meguiars forum and saw your process of color sanding. My hats off to you on an excellent job. I haven't done wet-sanding on a clearcoat in YEARS so my skills are a bit rusty. Do you have a more detailed procedure on how you do this? Email some pictures of before and after if you have more. I always love looking at detailing photos.</HTML>
Take care,
Brian
Precision Auto & Marine
Learn to detail boats! Visit www.detailtheboat.com
Unless you signed a release, those are your pictures. It wasn't Bud's wrongdoing but the magazines for miscommunication. Like he said, they probably thought it was a stock photo and used it. I'd be more honored than concerned if my photo was used.
I wrote an article for PC&D magazine and it ended up in American Clean Car. Was baffled but happy it made publishing.
Back to the photo, I check it on Meguiars forum and saw your process of color sanding. My hats off to you on an excellent job. I haven't done wet-sanding on a clearcoat in YEARS so my skills are a bit rusty. Do you have a more detailed procedure on how you do this? Email some pictures of before and after if you have more. I always love looking at detailing photos.</HTML>
Take care,
Brian
Precision Auto & Marine
Learn to detail boats! Visit www.detailtheboat.com
|
Re: Ethical? May 26, 2005 10:08PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 237 |
<HTML>I have to concur with the question of who owns the photos. Unless you signed something that says otherwise, you would have automatic copyright protection.
Bud, I don't think anyone thought for a moment that this was down to you, or thought that you had editorial control over the papers content!
I think Joe is right to ask the question here, because I know Joe has expanded his operation and I am sure we wish him well as he continues his quest for global domination. Those of us who do get bigger, tend to come accross these issues.
I had to deal with copyright long ago in my previous life as a graphic designer, but I'm having to learn even more about that kind of thing now that we are building a blueprint for a company which can be duplicated once we have got it right. One day we may be very big, and thats when small issues like this turn into multi-million dollar suits.
I'll give you an example of an issue which has come up earlier this week.
We are dealing with lease returns for the county council, and despite all the efforts at education so far, the employees are still getting hit with penalty re-charges, so in co-operation with the council, we are writing an online guide for their drivers, telling them what is acceptable and what is not, and what to do about it.
The thing is, there is already a guide telling them "what is acceptable and what is not, and what to do about it."
...it won't be nearly as good as our guide or have a tenth of the detail, but it is produced by the BVRLA and is therfore the industry standard. So we find ourselves re-inventing the wheel! there is only so many ways to say that a cracked windscreen is not acceptable.
We can't write a guide without basing it on the industry standard, but at what point would we be breaching copyright???? And if we did, to what degree would we be liable? How much would it cost us?
The answer to all of the above often depends very much on who is making money out of what, or who is losing money. It has very little to do with ethics or who is getting credit. The only credits that really count are green and folding.
If Joe earned his living selling photos to magazines and they used a photo of his without permission, he could be due a big fat cheque right now, but as he is a detailer, he hasn't lost anything. However, if the photo was used in an advert which created a lot of revenue off of his work/name/image he could also be due a slice.
So, it seems all of us who have posted so far on this thread have been published in some form or another, and we do it for the purpose of promotion and marketing. And this sort of thing is going to become even more of an issue as more and more stuff is shifted to the internet. I constantly have to tell the director that I can't do what he wants me to do because it is theft. One thing is damn sure, that just about every photo on our web site over a certian size is both digitaly signed and visably copyrighted.
Every issue that comes up, may it be copyright, health and safety, liability, consumer rights, employee rights... gets investigated, because it's easier to build systems to cope with these things while you are still small than wait until you are a national franchise.</HTML>
Bud, I don't think anyone thought for a moment that this was down to you, or thought that you had editorial control over the papers content!
I think Joe is right to ask the question here, because I know Joe has expanded his operation and I am sure we wish him well as he continues his quest for global domination. Those of us who do get bigger, tend to come accross these issues.
I had to deal with copyright long ago in my previous life as a graphic designer, but I'm having to learn even more about that kind of thing now that we are building a blueprint for a company which can be duplicated once we have got it right. One day we may be very big, and thats when small issues like this turn into multi-million dollar suits.
I'll give you an example of an issue which has come up earlier this week.
We are dealing with lease returns for the county council, and despite all the efforts at education so far, the employees are still getting hit with penalty re-charges, so in co-operation with the council, we are writing an online guide for their drivers, telling them what is acceptable and what is not, and what to do about it.
The thing is, there is already a guide telling them "what is acceptable and what is not, and what to do about it."
...it won't be nearly as good as our guide or have a tenth of the detail, but it is produced by the BVRLA and is therfore the industry standard. So we find ourselves re-inventing the wheel! there is only so many ways to say that a cracked windscreen is not acceptable.
We can't write a guide without basing it on the industry standard, but at what point would we be breaching copyright???? And if we did, to what degree would we be liable? How much would it cost us?
The answer to all of the above often depends very much on who is making money out of what, or who is losing money. It has very little to do with ethics or who is getting credit. The only credits that really count are green and folding.
If Joe earned his living selling photos to magazines and they used a photo of his without permission, he could be due a big fat cheque right now, but as he is a detailer, he hasn't lost anything. However, if the photo was used in an advert which created a lot of revenue off of his work/name/image he could also be due a slice.
So, it seems all of us who have posted so far on this thread have been published in some form or another, and we do it for the purpose of promotion and marketing. And this sort of thing is going to become even more of an issue as more and more stuff is shifted to the internet. I constantly have to tell the director that I can't do what he wants me to do because it is theft. One thing is damn sure, that just about every photo on our web site over a certian size is both digitaly signed and visably copyrighted.
Every issue that comes up, may it be copyright, health and safety, liability, consumer rights, employee rights... gets investigated, because it's easier to build systems to cope with these things while you are still small than wait until you are a national franchise.</HTML>
|
Re: Ethical? May 27, 2005 02:04AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 499 |
<HTML>If it's really a big deal to you Joe I suggest you contact someone at the magazine. Personally, I wouldn't give a rats ass because there are much more important things to worry about with respect to our businesses. After all, it's just a picture of your truck. I have had people actually copy my website - word for word. My thoughts? Have at it Hoss. If someone is so unoriginal that they can't be creative enough to either take their own pictures or write their own copy then let them have it and be flattered that you are doing something right. Otherwise someone wouldn't have copied it.</HTML>
|
Re: Ethical? May 27, 2005 02:08AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 35 |
I am flattered that my work was nice enough to be chosen to put with your write up.
Superior Shine-Covina, Ca.
Please join me in giving thanks to our men and women who serve in the name of our freedom and cannot be home with their families. Please include them in your prayers.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2007 02:37PM by Superior Shine Dtl.
Superior Shine-Covina, Ca.
Please join me in giving thanks to our men and women who serve in the name of our freedom and cannot be home with their families. Please include them in your prayers.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2007 02:37PM by Superior Shine Dtl.
|
Re: Ethical? May 27, 2005 02:11AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 35 |
The pic was taken of one of my clients vehicles.
Superior Shine-Covina, Ca.
Please join me in giving thanks to our men and women who serve in the name of our freedom and cannot be home with their families. Please include them in your prayers.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2007 02:38PM by Superior Shine Dtl.
Superior Shine-Covina, Ca.
Please join me in giving thanks to our men and women who serve in the name of our freedom and cannot be home with their families. Please include them in your prayers.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2007 02:38PM by Superior Shine Dtl.
|
Re: Ethical? June 03, 2005 03:40PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 1 |
<HTML>Hi everyone,
This is Kevin Hart, Publisher of Professional Carwashing & Detailing magazine. I just wanted to take a second to weigh in and confirm what you probably all already suspect -- Bud Abraham had nothing to do with the photo selection you are all discussing.
Bud typically hands us a finished article in word-processor format, and we pretty much take it from there. Regarding photo selection, our editors typically like to place photos of successful detailers and carwash operators within articles, as it is encouraging to our readership. We worked with Jose on an article a year ago about a job he did color sanding water spots from the finish of a new Ford Focus. He clearly knew what he was doing and sent us some very professional photos.
As with many publications, when someone sends us photos they typically become house or 'stock' photos. Most people in this industry love having their businesses shown in the magazine, and in the 7 years I have been with PC&D, this is the first this has come up. However, I can understand how you feel and we will be sensitive to this going forward.
Thanks again for the feedback and I'm glad that you all are reading the magazine. If you ever have any ideas, always feel free to contact me personally at khart@carwash.com.
Thanks and best wishes,
Kevin Hart
Publisher
Professional Carwashing & Detailing</HTML>
This is Kevin Hart, Publisher of Professional Carwashing & Detailing magazine. I just wanted to take a second to weigh in and confirm what you probably all already suspect -- Bud Abraham had nothing to do with the photo selection you are all discussing.
Bud typically hands us a finished article in word-processor format, and we pretty much take it from there. Regarding photo selection, our editors typically like to place photos of successful detailers and carwash operators within articles, as it is encouraging to our readership. We worked with Jose on an article a year ago about a job he did color sanding water spots from the finish of a new Ford Focus. He clearly knew what he was doing and sent us some very professional photos.
As with many publications, when someone sends us photos they typically become house or 'stock' photos. Most people in this industry love having their businesses shown in the magazine, and in the 7 years I have been with PC&D, this is the first this has come up. However, I can understand how you feel and we will be sensitive to this going forward.
Thanks again for the feedback and I'm glad that you all are reading the magazine. If you ever have any ideas, always feel free to contact me personally at khart@carwash.com.
Thanks and best wishes,
Kevin Hart
Publisher
Professional Carwashing & Detailing</HTML>
|
Re: Ethical? June 04, 2005 06:58AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 866 |
|
Re: Ethical? December 15, 2006 06:05AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 866 |
|
Re: Ethical? December 15, 2006 05:04PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 1,182 |
|
Re: Ethical? December 16, 2006 01:34AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 44 |
If the van is just a van and your logo isn't on it then its just a picture of a van. I don't think its unethical. If it is wrong then the company that made the van also has the same case you have. For example if it's a white Ford Econoline that they show in the article (without the logo) Then I have the same argument as well. If a local news crew did a live remote beside the highway and you passed by in your van and they air it that evening, they dont have to get permission. the only way to fix it where no one can use your pics you have to copywrite them just like photographers. Whoever set up the artical knew this, that's why they whited out your logo. I had to come back and post the fact that the web site is apparently down so I havent seen the pic. I'm just going on what was posted.
Philip
Manager of detail Depmnt, Hadwin White Buick, GMC
Myrtle Beach, SC
E-mail: philipwsuggs@hotmail.com
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/16/2006 02:51AM by st. legal.
Philip
Manager of detail Depmnt, Hadwin White Buick, GMC
Myrtle Beach, SC
E-mail: philipwsuggs@hotmail.com
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/16/2006 02:51AM by st. legal.
|
Re: Ethical? December 16, 2006 05:57AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 866 |
|
Re: Ethical? December 16, 2006 02:23PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 7 |
|
Re: Ethical? December 16, 2006 03:17PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 1,182 |
Joe-
My advice is to put this behind you or contact the editor directly as he invited you to last time. Then...
MARKETING IDEA : Send a photo kit of your rig to every publication you can think of, inviting them to use the pictures as long as the following caption is printed under each one : "File photo provided by Superior Shine, phone XXXXXXXX."
That's free advertising. You could even enclose a press release to get free articles written about you.
After all, your rig's appearance is not a secret and nothing to be ashamed of either.
Doug
" We never have PROBLEMS. We have OPPORTUNITIES. "-a hotel manager-
My advice is to put this behind you or contact the editor directly as he invited you to last time. Then...
MARKETING IDEA : Send a photo kit of your rig to every publication you can think of, inviting them to use the pictures as long as the following caption is printed under each one : "File photo provided by Superior Shine, phone XXXXXXXX."
That's free advertising. You could even enclose a press release to get free articles written about you.
After all, your rig's appearance is not a secret and nothing to be ashamed of either.
Doug
" We never have PROBLEMS. We have OPPORTUNITIES. "-a hotel manager-
|
Re: Ethical? December 16, 2006 06:19PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 866 |
|
Re: Ethical? December 16, 2006 06:44PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 1,182 |
Joe-
I actually agree with your anger at having photos lifted. I just think all you are likely to get as compensation is some free coverage.
When I said you could send pics of your rig to publishers, I meant all kinds, including local newspapers. Even plugs in trade publications could land you referrals.
Best of luck !
Doug
I actually agree with your anger at having photos lifted. I just think all you are likely to get as compensation is some free coverage.
When I said you could send pics of your rig to publishers, I meant all kinds, including local newspapers. Even plugs in trade publications could land you referrals.
Best of luck !
Doug
|
Re: Ethical? December 16, 2006 08:06PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 44 |
Sorry about that I gotta learn to read the dates before I chime in.
Philip
Manager of detail Depmnt, Hadwin White Buick, GMC
Myrtle Beach, SC
E-mail: philipwsuggs@hotmail.com
Philip
Manager of detail Depmnt, Hadwin White Buick, GMC
Myrtle Beach, SC
E-mail: philipwsuggs@hotmail.com
|
Re: Ethical? December 18, 2006 10:48PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 866 |
OK allow me to remove the foot from my mouth!!!
I received a very nice email from Kate Carr, the current editor of the Pro carwashing and detailing magazine.
She reminded me that I DID INDEED SEND THEM THE PIC to use with the mobile vs fixed detailer story.
I am embarrassed that I forgot I sent the pic and that I made a stink about this. I apologize to Mrs. Carr, to PC&D magazine and to Mr. (Bud) Abraham and ask for their forgiveness.
-----------------------------------------------------
Plays in the rain --- www.SuperiorShineDetailing.com
I received a very nice email from Kate Carr, the current editor of the Pro carwashing and detailing magazine.
She reminded me that I DID INDEED SEND THEM THE PIC to use with the mobile vs fixed detailer story.
I am embarrassed that I forgot I sent the pic and that I made a stink about this. I apologize to Mrs. Carr, to PC&D magazine and to Mr. (Bud) Abraham and ask for their forgiveness.
-----------------------------------------------------
Plays in the rain --- www.SuperiorShineDetailing.com
|
Re: Ethical? December 27, 2006 08:01AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
Joe:
As a Christmas present for you I checked with a patent attorney here in Portland about your question regarding who owns the photo and if what you tell me are the facts he said, "the photo is yours, not the magazine's."
So if you want you can hire an attorney and pursue a suit against them for unauthorize use of your photos.
Same would apply, I assume, for those using photos off your website which falls under the copywrite law, I believe, but again I am not an attorney.
Hope this helps you.
Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS
buda
As a Christmas present for you I checked with a patent attorney here in Portland about your question regarding who owns the photo and if what you tell me are the facts he said, "the photo is yours, not the magazine's."
So if you want you can hire an attorney and pursue a suit against them for unauthorize use of your photos.
Same would apply, I assume, for those using photos off your website which falls under the copywrite law, I believe, but again I am not an attorney.
Hope this helps you.
Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS
buda
|
Re: Ethical? December 27, 2006 08:36AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 866 |
|
Re: Ethical? January 11, 2007 11:46AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 237 |
They are quite welcome to contact me about using my photos. I'm sure a deal can be done!
* * * * * * * * * * * *
www.clean-image.co.uk
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 01/11/2007 11:58AM by Dan loves tea.
* * * * * * * * * * * *
www.clean-image.co.uk
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 01/11/2007 11:58AM by Dan loves tea.
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.