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car scratches and swirl marks
Posted by john clement
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car scratches and swirl marks November 22, 2003 09:40PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 2 |
<HTML>I HAVE A BLACK LEXUS ONE MONTH OLD. I'VE ONLY WASHED IT BY HAND BUT IT HAS SCRATCHES AND SWIRL MARKS. I HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM WITH MY WIFE'S RED HONDA CRV. I HAVE NEVER NOTICE THIS PROBLEM WITH THE OTHER AMERICAN CARS I HAVE OWNED. DOES ANBODY KNOW IF THE JAPANESE CARS HAVE A SOFTER PAINT? I USED AN INEXSPESIVE WEN RANDOM BUFFER WITH MEGUIAR'S SWIRL REMOVER. IT TOOK OUT MOST OF THE SWIRL MARKS BUT NOT ALL THE SCRATCHES. I CALLED MEGUIAR'S. THEY RECOMMENDED USING MADALLION PAINT CLEANER BECAUSE IT HAS A HEAVEYER CUT. BUT IF I SPEND ALL THIS TIME REMOVING THESE SCRATCHES AND THYEY JUST COME BACK...WHY DO ANTHING?. CAN ANYBODY HELP ME OUT...JOHN</HTML>
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Re: car scratches and swirl marks November 22, 2003 10:26PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 266 |
<HTML>John, please don't shout. Odds are that many of the marks on your Lex are dealer installed-they did a piss-poor prep on it and swirled the paint. Washing the car removed the 'fillers' that were hiding the swirls and now they're visible.
Once you've removed the swirls, proper maintenance is required to minimize/prevent their reoccurance. The two key players in swirl prevention are rinsing and the towels you use. First off rinse everything. Rinse before you wash, while you are washing and after you wash. You cannot rinse too much.
Secondly, make sure you're using quality towels, microfiber or cotton. The cotton towels should be white and made with american cotton (the best) with heavy pile. There are many places on the web where you can find quality microfiber.
Using a second bucket with plain water during the wash to rinse out your wash mitt/cloth between each panel. This prevents dirt & grit from building up in your wash mitt and scratching your paint.</HTML>
-ghost of a past detailer
Once you've removed the swirls, proper maintenance is required to minimize/prevent their reoccurance. The two key players in swirl prevention are rinsing and the towels you use. First off rinse everything. Rinse before you wash, while you are washing and after you wash. You cannot rinse too much.
Secondly, make sure you're using quality towels, microfiber or cotton. The cotton towels should be white and made with american cotton (the best) with heavy pile. There are many places on the web where you can find quality microfiber.
Using a second bucket with plain water during the wash to rinse out your wash mitt/cloth between each panel. This prevents dirt & grit from building up in your wash mitt and scratching your paint.</HTML>
-ghost of a past detailer
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Re: car scratches and swirl marks November 23, 2003 05:39AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 2 |
<HTML>THANKS FOR YOUR OPINION. BUT I REALLY THINK THAT THE SCRATCHES HAPPEND AFTER CAR PURCHASE. I STILL SEEM TO THINK THAT THE PAINT IS REALLY SOFT. I CAN SCRATCH IT BY SOFTLY TOUCHING IT WITH MY FINGER NAIL. ALSO I NEVER HAD THIS PROBLEM BEFORE WITH THE AMERICAN CARS I OWNED. WOULD APPECIATE ANY OTHER OPINIONS.
-JOHN</HTML>
-JOHN</HTML>
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Re: car scratches and swirl marks November 23, 2003 07:01AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 1,838 |
<HTML>John:
If this is happening on both cars, I'd check your style of washing. What do you use to wash? Mitt, sponge, bath towel (yikes!) DO you use powdered wash like Turtle Wax's Zip wax?
Don't do that with your fingernail. I can do that to my car's finish too.
It seems you like Meguiars, so give Show Car Glaze a try.</HTML>
Take care,
Brian
Precision Auto & Marine
Learn to detail boats! Visit www.detailtheboat.com
If this is happening on both cars, I'd check your style of washing. What do you use to wash? Mitt, sponge, bath towel (yikes!) DO you use powdered wash like Turtle Wax's Zip wax?
Don't do that with your fingernail. I can do that to my car's finish too.
It seems you like Meguiars, so give Show Car Glaze a try.</HTML>
Take care,
Brian
Precision Auto & Marine
Learn to detail boats! Visit www.detailtheboat.com
|
Re: car scratches and swirl marks November 23, 2003 09:58AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>John:
There is a myth that today's paints are softer. Actually when they outlawed the use of solvents because of the environmental problems of solvent emissions into the atmosphere destroying the ozone layer among other reasons for getting rid of laquer paints. They went from a LOW SOLIDS paint to a HIGH SOLIDS paint, which technically-speaking, is softer than low solids.
However, it should not be so soft, especially the clear coat that you can make a mark with your fingernail. I would take your $40,000 + car back to the dealer and raise HELL. Even call the customer service dept of Lexus if the dealer gives you no satisfaction.
You can scratch a paint finish with handwashing more than by automatic soft cloth washing. This was proven by the Technological University of Munich who conducted a test for Mercedes Benz and substantiated a few years later by the University of Texas who did a similiar study for the International Carwash Association.
What they did in both tests is wash a car 26 times, duplicating twice a month washing for a year. They did the washes by hand and by automatic carwash.
Then they photographed the paint. What they found was that the hand washed car had much more damage and scratches than the machine washed car Why?
Because the machine has a tremendous amount of shampoo and water serving as a barrier between the washing cloth and the paint while being washed.
Where as with hand washing there was little or no barrier and when the mitt first hits the paint and picks up the dirt and grit it is like a piece of fine sandpaper and all you are doing is rubbing it around and around the paint, scratching.
They concluded that if you want to protect the car paint while hand washing what you must do is hold a running hose in one hand and the mitt in the other to maintain a barrier of water between the paint and wash mitt.
Of course you must have a clean wash mitt, but between y ou and I once a wash mitt has grit in it you can machine wash it, etc but it still has the grit in it. You are better off using some throw away washing mitt or sponge if you are anal about the condition of your car.
If you watch most people, profesisonals and non professionals, they make a single dip and think that because they have a lot of foam on the mitt they are washing doing OK and will do an entire side of a car with one dip. This is wrong. What you need to do is to dip the mitt or sponge everytime you wash and area of the car.
For example, start by dipping and washing half the hood; then dip again and wash the fender; dip again and wash the windshield; dip again and wash 1/2 the top; dip again and wash the side windows and so on.
Also before starting take a hose or pressure washer and remove as much surface dirt and grit as you can before starting the wash process.
If you want to read the University of Munich Test go to www.kaadycarwashes.com they have this on their website.
By the way the buffer you have, is it a high speed rotary buffer or an orbital or dual action? You need the rotary buffer to get rid of the scratches. An orbital will only fill them, and after a wash or two they will be there again.
You need a rotary buffer at 1700 RPM; foam or poly/wool blend cutting pad; a micro-fine finishing compound. If the pads and micro fine do not remove the scratches you may need to move up to a light compound, but I suspect that if you start with foam and that does not work that the poly/wool and micro fine will.
Should that not work you may need to move up to a light compound about 2000 grit with foam pad.
Follow that with the rotary buffer again at 1300 RPM; a foam polishing pad and a swirl remover and finally hit it with a paint sealant for protection.
HOpe that helps. But go to Lexus and complain about the "softeness" of the paint.
On a final note. They say that 60% of the new cars delivered to the customer have some repainted on them ,at least once, maybe twice.
The car is paint on the assembly line with thermal curing paint. After assembly if there are flaws in the paint finish or damage it is corrected with acid-catalyzed thermal curing paint (lowers temp necessary to cure the paint). Then it is transported to the dealer. If it gets damaged in transportation it is corrected again and the area repainted.
So you could have 3 different paint finishes on your car: Factory Thermal Curing Paint; Factory Acid-Catalyzed Thermal Curing Paint; and Aftermarket Paint.
What you can do is use a Paint Thickness Guage ($39.95) to see how thick the film is on the surface. It sound be no more than about 5 to 6 mils. If it is more you have repaint on the car.
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
There is a myth that today's paints are softer. Actually when they outlawed the use of solvents because of the environmental problems of solvent emissions into the atmosphere destroying the ozone layer among other reasons for getting rid of laquer paints. They went from a LOW SOLIDS paint to a HIGH SOLIDS paint, which technically-speaking, is softer than low solids.
However, it should not be so soft, especially the clear coat that you can make a mark with your fingernail. I would take your $40,000 + car back to the dealer and raise HELL. Even call the customer service dept of Lexus if the dealer gives you no satisfaction.
You can scratch a paint finish with handwashing more than by automatic soft cloth washing. This was proven by the Technological University of Munich who conducted a test for Mercedes Benz and substantiated a few years later by the University of Texas who did a similiar study for the International Carwash Association.
What they did in both tests is wash a car 26 times, duplicating twice a month washing for a year. They did the washes by hand and by automatic carwash.
Then they photographed the paint. What they found was that the hand washed car had much more damage and scratches than the machine washed car Why?
Because the machine has a tremendous amount of shampoo and water serving as a barrier between the washing cloth and the paint while being washed.
Where as with hand washing there was little or no barrier and when the mitt first hits the paint and picks up the dirt and grit it is like a piece of fine sandpaper and all you are doing is rubbing it around and around the paint, scratching.
They concluded that if you want to protect the car paint while hand washing what you must do is hold a running hose in one hand and the mitt in the other to maintain a barrier of water between the paint and wash mitt.
Of course you must have a clean wash mitt, but between y ou and I once a wash mitt has grit in it you can machine wash it, etc but it still has the grit in it. You are better off using some throw away washing mitt or sponge if you are anal about the condition of your car.
If you watch most people, profesisonals and non professionals, they make a single dip and think that because they have a lot of foam on the mitt they are washing doing OK and will do an entire side of a car with one dip. This is wrong. What you need to do is to dip the mitt or sponge everytime you wash and area of the car.
For example, start by dipping and washing half the hood; then dip again and wash the fender; dip again and wash the windshield; dip again and wash 1/2 the top; dip again and wash the side windows and so on.
Also before starting take a hose or pressure washer and remove as much surface dirt and grit as you can before starting the wash process.
If you want to read the University of Munich Test go to www.kaadycarwashes.com they have this on their website.
By the way the buffer you have, is it a high speed rotary buffer or an orbital or dual action? You need the rotary buffer to get rid of the scratches. An orbital will only fill them, and after a wash or two they will be there again.
You need a rotary buffer at 1700 RPM; foam or poly/wool blend cutting pad; a micro-fine finishing compound. If the pads and micro fine do not remove the scratches you may need to move up to a light compound, but I suspect that if you start with foam and that does not work that the poly/wool and micro fine will.
Should that not work you may need to move up to a light compound about 2000 grit with foam pad.
Follow that with the rotary buffer again at 1300 RPM; a foam polishing pad and a swirl remover and finally hit it with a paint sealant for protection.
HOpe that helps. But go to Lexus and complain about the "softeness" of the paint.
On a final note. They say that 60% of the new cars delivered to the customer have some repainted on them ,at least once, maybe twice.
The car is paint on the assembly line with thermal curing paint. After assembly if there are flaws in the paint finish or damage it is corrected with acid-catalyzed thermal curing paint (lowers temp necessary to cure the paint). Then it is transported to the dealer. If it gets damaged in transportation it is corrected again and the area repainted.
So you could have 3 different paint finishes on your car: Factory Thermal Curing Paint; Factory Acid-Catalyzed Thermal Curing Paint; and Aftermarket Paint.
What you can do is use a Paint Thickness Guage ($39.95) to see how thick the film is on the surface. It sound be no more than about 5 to 6 mils. If it is more you have repaint on the car.
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
|
Re: car scratches and swirl marks November 23, 2003 09:58AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>John:
There is a myth that today's paints are softer. Actually when they outlawed the use of solvents because of the environmental problems of solvent emissions into the atmosphere destroying the ozone layer among other reasons for getting rid of laquer paints. They went from a LOW SOLIDS paint to a HIGH SOLIDS paint, which technically-speaking, is softer than low solids.
However, it should not be so soft, especially the clear coat that you can make a mark with your fingernail. I would take your $40,000 + car back to the dealer and raise HELL. Even call the customer service dept of Lexus if the dealer gives you no satisfaction.
You can scratch a paint finish with handwashing more than by automatic soft cloth washing. This was proven by the Technological University of Munich who conducted a test for Mercedes Benz and substantiated a few years later by the University of Texas who did a similiar study for the International Carwash Association.
What they did in both tests is wash a car 26 times, duplicating twice a month washing for a year. They did the washes by hand and by automatic carwash.
Then they photographed the paint. What they found was that the hand washed car had much more damage and scratches than the machine washed car Why?
Because the machine has a tremendous amount of shampoo and water serving as a barrier between the washing cloth and the paint while being washed.
Where as with hand washing there was little or no barrier and when the mitt first hits the paint and picks up the dirt and grit it is like a piece of fine sandpaper and all you are doing is rubbing it around and around the paint, scratching.
They concluded that if you want to protect the car paint while hand washing what you must do is hold a running hose in one hand and the mitt in the other to maintain a barrier of water between the paint and wash mitt.
Of course you must have a clean wash mitt, but between y ou and I once a wash mitt has grit in it you can machine wash it, etc but it still has the grit in it. You are better off using some throw away washing mitt or sponge if you are anal about the condition of your car.
If you watch most people, profesisonals and non professionals, they make a single dip and think that because they have a lot of foam on the mitt they are washing doing OK and will do an entire side of a car with one dip. This is wrong. What you need to do is to dip the mitt or sponge everytime you wash and area of the car.
For example, start by dipping and washing half the hood; then dip again and wash the fender; dip again and wash the windshield; dip again and wash 1/2 the top; dip again and wash the side windows and so on.
Also before starting take a hose or pressure washer and remove as much surface dirt and grit as you can before starting the wash process.
If you want to read the University of Munich Test go to www.kaadycarwashes.com they have this on their website.
By the way the buffer you have, is it a high speed rotary buffer or an orbital or dual action? You need the rotary buffer to get rid of the scratches. An orbital will only fill them, and after a wash or two they will be there again.
You need a rotary buffer at 1700 RPM; foam or poly/wool blend cutting pad; a micro-fine finishing compound. If the pads and micro fine do not remove the scratches you may need to move up to a light compound, but I suspect that if you start with foam and that does not work that the poly/wool and micro fine will.
Should that not work you may need to move up to a light compound about 2000 grit with foam pad.
Follow that with the rotary buffer again at 1300 RPM; a foam polishing pad and a swirl remover and finally hit it with a paint sealant for protection.
HOpe that helps. But go to Lexus and complain about the "softeness" of the paint.
On a final note. They say that 60% of the new cars delivered to the customer have some repainted on them ,at least once, maybe twice.
The car is paint on the assembly line with thermal curing paint. After assembly if there are flaws in the paint finish or damage it is corrected with acid-catalyzed thermal curing paint (lowers temp necessary to cure the paint). Then it is transported to the dealer. If it gets damaged in transportation it is corrected again and the area repainted.
So you could have 3 different paint finishes on your car: Factory Thermal Curing Paint; Factory Acid-Catalyzed Thermal Curing Paint; and Aftermarket Paint.
What you can do is use a Paint Thickness Guage ($39.95) to see how thick the film is on the surface. It sound be no more than about 5 to 6 mils. If it is more you have repaint on the car.
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
There is a myth that today's paints are softer. Actually when they outlawed the use of solvents because of the environmental problems of solvent emissions into the atmosphere destroying the ozone layer among other reasons for getting rid of laquer paints. They went from a LOW SOLIDS paint to a HIGH SOLIDS paint, which technically-speaking, is softer than low solids.
However, it should not be so soft, especially the clear coat that you can make a mark with your fingernail. I would take your $40,000 + car back to the dealer and raise HELL. Even call the customer service dept of Lexus if the dealer gives you no satisfaction.
You can scratch a paint finish with handwashing more than by automatic soft cloth washing. This was proven by the Technological University of Munich who conducted a test for Mercedes Benz and substantiated a few years later by the University of Texas who did a similiar study for the International Carwash Association.
What they did in both tests is wash a car 26 times, duplicating twice a month washing for a year. They did the washes by hand and by automatic carwash.
Then they photographed the paint. What they found was that the hand washed car had much more damage and scratches than the machine washed car Why?
Because the machine has a tremendous amount of shampoo and water serving as a barrier between the washing cloth and the paint while being washed.
Where as with hand washing there was little or no barrier and when the mitt first hits the paint and picks up the dirt and grit it is like a piece of fine sandpaper and all you are doing is rubbing it around and around the paint, scratching.
They concluded that if you want to protect the car paint while hand washing what you must do is hold a running hose in one hand and the mitt in the other to maintain a barrier of water between the paint and wash mitt.
Of course you must have a clean wash mitt, but between y ou and I once a wash mitt has grit in it you can machine wash it, etc but it still has the grit in it. You are better off using some throw away washing mitt or sponge if you are anal about the condition of your car.
If you watch most people, profesisonals and non professionals, they make a single dip and think that because they have a lot of foam on the mitt they are washing doing OK and will do an entire side of a car with one dip. This is wrong. What you need to do is to dip the mitt or sponge everytime you wash and area of the car.
For example, start by dipping and washing half the hood; then dip again and wash the fender; dip again and wash the windshield; dip again and wash 1/2 the top; dip again and wash the side windows and so on.
Also before starting take a hose or pressure washer and remove as much surface dirt and grit as you can before starting the wash process.
If you want to read the University of Munich Test go to www.kaadycarwashes.com they have this on their website.
By the way the buffer you have, is it a high speed rotary buffer or an orbital or dual action? You need the rotary buffer to get rid of the scratches. An orbital will only fill them, and after a wash or two they will be there again.
You need a rotary buffer at 1700 RPM; foam or poly/wool blend cutting pad; a micro-fine finishing compound. If the pads and micro fine do not remove the scratches you may need to move up to a light compound, but I suspect that if you start with foam and that does not work that the poly/wool and micro fine will.
Should that not work you may need to move up to a light compound about 2000 grit with foam pad.
Follow that with the rotary buffer again at 1300 RPM; a foam polishing pad and a swirl remover and finally hit it with a paint sealant for protection.
HOpe that helps. But go to Lexus and complain about the "softeness" of the paint.
On a final note. They say that 60% of the new cars delivered to the customer have some repainted on them ,at least once, maybe twice.
The car is paint on the assembly line with thermal curing paint. After assembly if there are flaws in the paint finish or damage it is corrected with acid-catalyzed thermal curing paint (lowers temp necessary to cure the paint). Then it is transported to the dealer. If it gets damaged in transportation it is corrected again and the area repainted.
So you could have 3 different paint finishes on your car: Factory Thermal Curing Paint; Factory Acid-Catalyzed Thermal Curing Paint; and Aftermarket Paint.
What you can do is use a Paint Thickness Guage ($39.95) to see how thick the film is on the surface. It sound be no more than about 5 to 6 mils. If it is more you have repaint on the car.
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
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