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Water beading as a test for wax?
Posted by Anthony Orosco
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Re: Society of Automotive Engineers! May 19, 2005 03:01PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 64 |
<HTML>Ketch,
That is where I am comming from...I see these test and can simply tell from our own doings that they don't have all the correct pieces in place for the testing. I feel its great that testing is being conducted but I simply see the same mistakes being made or the simple fact that the test are sided.
I have not seen Bud's test so I can't make a comment about his testing outcome but at least he (Bud) is taking action and trying to provide valid information.
Many may be bored with this post but I feel this is a very important issue within our trade. To hear Pro's such as Ketch and Bud going into the details should tell everyone that if two industry experts have such passions for a topic, it's an important issue.</HTML>
Renny Doyle
Attention To Details
Aircraft & Auto Detailing
www.detailingsuccess.com
Proud Detailers of Air Force One!
PDTA Member
That is where I am comming from...I see these test and can simply tell from our own doings that they don't have all the correct pieces in place for the testing. I feel its great that testing is being conducted but I simply see the same mistakes being made or the simple fact that the test are sided.
I have not seen Bud's test so I can't make a comment about his testing outcome but at least he (Bud) is taking action and trying to provide valid information.
Many may be bored with this post but I feel this is a very important issue within our trade. To hear Pro's such as Ketch and Bud going into the details should tell everyone that if two industry experts have such passions for a topic, it's an important issue.</HTML>
Renny Doyle
Attention To Details
Aircraft & Auto Detailing
www.detailingsuccess.com
Proud Detailers of Air Force One!
PDTA Member
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Re: Society of Automotive Engineers! May 19, 2005 03:22PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Renny:
Thank you for your thoughtful posting.
What some people forget is that this is an imperfect world, with imperfect humans, imperfect materials and in this case, imperfect testing procedures.
That said, how then can we ever expect to come up with testing procedures that are completely perfect.
The test we conducted, while not perfect, as criticized by Mr Ketchup, is at least something to provide you detailers with some guage on which to consider the products you are using.
I am not aware of any other chemical company that has "stepped up" as we did to conduct or provide tests of this nature. Why is that I wonder?
While expensive to conduct, our test did not cost several hundred thousand dollars to perform. I would think that every detail chemical company in the industry has the tools and resources to conduct such tests but are hesitant to do so because they do not want detailers to know that much about their products.
Just a thought to add to your excellent and thoughtful and thought-provoking posts.
Thank you.
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
Thank you for your thoughtful posting.
What some people forget is that this is an imperfect world, with imperfect humans, imperfect materials and in this case, imperfect testing procedures.
That said, how then can we ever expect to come up with testing procedures that are completely perfect.
The test we conducted, while not perfect, as criticized by Mr Ketchup, is at least something to provide you detailers with some guage on which to consider the products you are using.
I am not aware of any other chemical company that has "stepped up" as we did to conduct or provide tests of this nature. Why is that I wonder?
While expensive to conduct, our test did not cost several hundred thousand dollars to perform. I would think that every detail chemical company in the industry has the tools and resources to conduct such tests but are hesitant to do so because they do not want detailers to know that much about their products.
Just a thought to add to your excellent and thoughtful and thought-provoking posts.
Thank you.
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
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Re: Society of Automotive Engineers! May 19, 2005 03:34PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 641 |
<HTML>Sometimes, we are required to pay for the test, but have no say, what so ever regarding protocal, panels, etc.
Other times, we may be required to pay half the amount, same thing, we have no input that may influence the outcome of the test.
Then, when a vehicle manufacturer has either a serious warranty concern or is convince that a product may one that it would be in their best interest to have in their product line, they pay for all the test costs.
That was the case with the Master Shield Paint Sealant, they wanted it, so they paid for the test I referred to.
Which is why I can only provide limited information regarding the actual test.
The new product we have in developement, we are paying all the costs, to an independant lab for the same test protocals that DaimlerChrysler, Ford, GM, Hyundia, Mitsubishi, etc use.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it at all!
Other times, we may be required to pay half the amount, same thing, we have no input that may influence the outcome of the test.
Then, when a vehicle manufacturer has either a serious warranty concern or is convince that a product may one that it would be in their best interest to have in their product line, they pay for all the test costs.
That was the case with the Master Shield Paint Sealant, they wanted it, so they paid for the test I referred to.
Which is why I can only provide limited information regarding the actual test.
The new product we have in developement, we are paying all the costs, to an independant lab for the same test protocals that DaimlerChrysler, Ford, GM, Hyundia, Mitsubishi, etc use.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it at all!
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Re: Society of Automotive Engineers! May 19, 2005 06:11PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 466 |
<HTML>OK....here is a wrench thrown in the mix......regarding water beading.
Today I washed a weekly regular and as I rinsed the car off after it being washed I decided to do a little test with the water.
Now this car was waxed last week so the paint is very clean and slick. I rinsed off the hood and adjusted the fire noxxle I have to a fine mist. The water beaded real small and tight.
I then opened the nozzle up to allow more water to flow out and the water went to large beads the collected and sheeted off into larger pools. The small tight beads were replaced with larger beads that eventualy sheeted off.
Now I could of taken a picture of the small tight beads and some folks would claim I had excellant wax protection. Yet if I had taken a picture of the larger beads mixed with sheeted water those same people would claim I had little to no wax protection, yet it is the same car.
So this would then disprove the theory of water beading, namely small tight beads, being visual evidence of wax protection, at least that is how I am seeing it at the moment.
Anthony</HTML>
Details, Details, Details....It's all in the details!
www.UltimateReflections.NET
Today I washed a weekly regular and as I rinsed the car off after it being washed I decided to do a little test with the water.
Now this car was waxed last week so the paint is very clean and slick. I rinsed off the hood and adjusted the fire noxxle I have to a fine mist. The water beaded real small and tight.
I then opened the nozzle up to allow more water to flow out and the water went to large beads the collected and sheeted off into larger pools. The small tight beads were replaced with larger beads that eventualy sheeted off.
Now I could of taken a picture of the small tight beads and some folks would claim I had excellant wax protection. Yet if I had taken a picture of the larger beads mixed with sheeted water those same people would claim I had little to no wax protection, yet it is the same car.
So this would then disprove the theory of water beading, namely small tight beads, being visual evidence of wax protection, at least that is how I am seeing it at the moment.
Anthony</HTML>
Details, Details, Details....It's all in the details!
www.UltimateReflections.NET
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Re: History of Sealants May 20, 2005 04:43PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 585 |
<HTML>Despite the fact the subject has been discussed ad nauseum, I still remain confused from a scientific point view as to the benefits of sealants vs wax. ( their durability, protective value, etc.) My own (as some would say subjective opinion) having used sealants for the past 20 years says that they far outweigh waxes in reflective gloss, durability etc, and maintenance of paint finish.)
Anyway that being said, can anyone give the history of sealants and answer some other trivial associated questions:
When did sealants become applicable in the automotive industry as a protect ant for paint finish?
Where did the 5 year 10 year durability protection come from?
Where did the lasting 52 carwashes come from?
Polyglycoat was this the first of sealants introduced?
How did Warranty and sealants come about from a protection point of view as an add on sale for dealerships?
I remember purchasing this sealant some 26 years ago and at that time the cost for application was well over $350.00
What was Auri?
What was the Blue Coral coating that wreaked such a havoc on paint finish?
Why do Autobody shops have such a negative view about sealants?
What is Ming? And how does this process differ from sealants?</HTML>
Anyway that being said, can anyone give the history of sealants and answer some other trivial associated questions:
When did sealants become applicable in the automotive industry as a protect ant for paint finish?
Where did the 5 year 10 year durability protection come from?
Where did the lasting 52 carwashes come from?
Polyglycoat was this the first of sealants introduced?
How did Warranty and sealants come about from a protection point of view as an add on sale for dealerships?
I remember purchasing this sealant some 26 years ago and at that time the cost for application was well over $350.00
What was Auri?
What was the Blue Coral coating that wreaked such a havoc on paint finish?
Why do Autobody shops have such a negative view about sealants?
What is Ming? And how does this process differ from sealants?</HTML>
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Re: History of Sealants May 20, 2005 04:47PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 641 |
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Re: History of Sealants May 20, 2005 05:19PM |
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Re: History of Sealants May 20, 2005 09:03PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 585 |
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Re: History of Sealants May 21, 2005 12:25AM |
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Re: History of Sealants May 21, 2005 02:29PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>To keep the conversation simple and not overwhelmed with technical words let me sa that there is really no magic with regard to sealants. They are nothing but an evolution of the wax protection technology.
They use a different type of silicone in them vs what is used in wax. Some sealants have wax in the formulation and some do not. It is all about what the formulator or his marketing department tells him they want.
Some carnaba wax products have the same silicone used in sealants in the wax, but they call it and market it as a wax because the consumer is more knowledgeable about waxes than sealants. So it is a wax or a sealant?
The bottomline is that chemical companies found, starting with PolyGlycoat that they could "razzle-dazzle" the consumer into believing that sealant products were so far superior to waxes that they should pay hundreds of dollars for an application.
As well, they have also learned that they can "con" detailers into believing the product is so far superior to a wax that they should pay $45 a quart for the product.
In the end, a well formulated paint sealant is better than a wax, but it is not worth the difference in price that they charge.
Hope that helps.
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
They use a different type of silicone in them vs what is used in wax. Some sealants have wax in the formulation and some do not. It is all about what the formulator or his marketing department tells him they want.
Some carnaba wax products have the same silicone used in sealants in the wax, but they call it and market it as a wax because the consumer is more knowledgeable about waxes than sealants. So it is a wax or a sealant?
The bottomline is that chemical companies found, starting with PolyGlycoat that they could "razzle-dazzle" the consumer into believing that sealant products were so far superior to waxes that they should pay hundreds of dollars for an application.
As well, they have also learned that they can "con" detailers into believing the product is so far superior to a wax that they should pay $45 a quart for the product.
In the end, a well formulated paint sealant is better than a wax, but it is not worth the difference in price that they charge.
Hope that helps.
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
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Re: Water beading as a test for wax? December 15, 2006 04:29PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 1,182 |
Early on this old thread, Ketch said of Zaino :
"They sell a lot of the product to the "wantabe's", the enthusists who desires a certain look to their paint and are willing to keep reapplying the product, very regularly, as it is part of their "hobby".
There is always room for products such as this, they come into the market, stick around for a while and then a new "magic boutique" product becomes the "rave" for this part of the market and they go away."
Hmmm, not exactly a ringing endorsement ( from a competitor, who's objectivity can be questioned ).
It is worth noting that instead of 'going away', Zaino is still on the market, and still beading water on my test car !
Doug
"They sell a lot of the product to the "wantabe's", the enthusists who desires a certain look to their paint and are willing to keep reapplying the product, very regularly, as it is part of their "hobby".
There is always room for products such as this, they come into the market, stick around for a while and then a new "magic boutique" product becomes the "rave" for this part of the market and they go away."
Hmmm, not exactly a ringing endorsement ( from a competitor, who's objectivity can be questioned ).
It is worth noting that instead of 'going away', Zaino is still on the market, and still beading water on my test car !
Doug
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Re: Water beading as a test for wax? December 22, 2006 03:25PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 1,182 |
Date: May 12, 2005 11:46AM
( Quote of Jim Hammill's page #2 post )
"Just pulled out my copy of the comparative test .
Bud , could you just explain this to me ?
In your above post you state .."2. The ingredients that cause a wax or sealant to bead water do not necessarily offer protection."
Your test says ..
"Durability was evaluated in two ways... "
"After each wash, the the test areas were were visually inspected for water beading"
If water beading does not offer proof that the protection is still there , then way was it a part of your test ?
Not being critical, just curious .
Jim Hammill. "
This question was raised way back then but Bud never answered it and continued to slam my tests because I used water beading.
Doug
( Quote of Jim Hammill's page #2 post )
"Just pulled out my copy of the comparative test .
Bud , could you just explain this to me ?
In your above post you state .."2. The ingredients that cause a wax or sealant to bead water do not necessarily offer protection."
Your test says ..
"Durability was evaluated in two ways... "
"After each wash, the the test areas were were visually inspected for water beading"
If water beading does not offer proof that the protection is still there , then way was it a part of your test ?
Not being critical, just curious .
Jim Hammill. "
This question was raised way back then but Bud never answered it and continued to slam my tests because I used water beading.
Doug
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Re: Water beading as a test for wax? December 22, 2006 04:32PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 201 |
Renny, In your opinion what is the best wax or sealant. I know that its only a opinion, but Bud has his ,via his testing and Guru via theres.Everbody talks about protection. Ive seen car that never been waxed , only washed and they still look goon without protection. They dont have that wet look shine, but there not shot either.I myself dont care about protection ,what I care about how long that high gloss last.I dont care what sealant you use the high gloss is lucky to last 3 months. Protection is their but no shine.
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Re: Water beading as a test for wax? December 24, 2006 08:00AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
Larry
If you are looking for high shine gloss my experience with waxes and sealants is that you cannot maintain a high shine for any appreciable length of time.
Even our sealant will loose some of it's gloss after a few days.
If you want a copy of our Comnparison Test it will give you a percentage loss of gloss after simulated 12 washings. They measured the reflective gloss before and after application and provided a percentage increase in gloss rating the products from 1 thru 25.
Then they washed the surfaces 12 times and then measured with the Glossometer the reflective gloss again and listed the percentage decrease in gloss.
That might help you make a decision which product you would like to try.
It is interesting that the two products that were #1 and #2 in highest percentage of reflective gloss after application with #18 and #19 respectively in resistence to salt water corrosion.
This substantiates what chemists have always told me, that products that have tremendous gloss do not protect well, and those that protect well are not typically do not leave a high shine.
Regards
Bud Abraham
buda@detailplus.com
If you are looking for high shine gloss my experience with waxes and sealants is that you cannot maintain a high shine for any appreciable length of time.
Even our sealant will loose some of it's gloss after a few days.
If you want a copy of our Comnparison Test it will give you a percentage loss of gloss after simulated 12 washings. They measured the reflective gloss before and after application and provided a percentage increase in gloss rating the products from 1 thru 25.
Then they washed the surfaces 12 times and then measured with the Glossometer the reflective gloss again and listed the percentage decrease in gloss.
That might help you make a decision which product you would like to try.
It is interesting that the two products that were #1 and #2 in highest percentage of reflective gloss after application with #18 and #19 respectively in resistence to salt water corrosion.
This substantiates what chemists have always told me, that products that have tremendous gloss do not protect well, and those that protect well are not typically do not leave a high shine.
Regards
Bud Abraham
buda@detailplus.com
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Re: Water beading as a test for wax? December 24, 2006 04:33PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 201 |
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Re: Water beading as a test for wax? December 24, 2006 05:11PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
Larry
Not sure what you mean by QD's. If you are going to wax your car after every wash then use a paint sealant. They are easy to apply and remove and they will give you a great deal more protection in the long run. The spray waxes are not very durable, not much more durable than the spray waxes you get at an automatic car wash. If you are going to the effort to keep your car in that good of condition, use the best.
You might want to look at our DIAMOND PLUS Paint Sealant.
Send me your email address and I will forward the report to you.
Bud Abraham
buda@detailplus.com
Not sure what you mean by QD's. If you are going to wax your car after every wash then use a paint sealant. They are easy to apply and remove and they will give you a great deal more protection in the long run. The spray waxes are not very durable, not much more durable than the spray waxes you get at an automatic car wash. If you are going to the effort to keep your car in that good of condition, use the best.
You might want to look at our DIAMOND PLUS Paint Sealant.
Send me your email address and I will forward the report to you.
Bud Abraham
buda@detailplus.com
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Re: Water beading as a test for wax? December 25, 2006 03:06AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 1,182 |
Larry :
Renny hasn't put a post up here for some time but I recall reading that he liked Klasse.
Bud's test involved washing the panels in a powerful detergent solution that was almost guaranteed to strip wax : " A solution {composed} of 10 ounces of Cargroom's Carwash Concentrate..."
The normal dose is probably one ounce per gallon of water. Simply saying the panels were washed is misleading.
You can read my objections to Bud's test on other threads if you haven't already. The important things to note are (1) Bud's Diamond Plus Sealant has won praise from at least four forum members. These testimonials mean more to me than his test. (2) My Zaino test vehicle is almost into its third month with Zaino and the gloss is still there. It is being washed with AM's yellow car wash soap, one of the harsher such soaps-but properly diluted and rinsed.
That is real world testing.
One of the users of Diamond Plus cautioned against getting it on vinyl trim, presumably because it will stain it. It has been praised for easy application, durability, shine and price. To learn more, try www.zainostore.com , www.detailplus.com and the forums at www.mobileworks.com
Doug
Renny hasn't put a post up here for some time but I recall reading that he liked Klasse.
Bud's test involved washing the panels in a powerful detergent solution that was almost guaranteed to strip wax : " A solution {composed} of 10 ounces of Cargroom's Carwash Concentrate..."
The normal dose is probably one ounce per gallon of water. Simply saying the panels were washed is misleading.
You can read my objections to Bud's test on other threads if you haven't already. The important things to note are (1) Bud's Diamond Plus Sealant has won praise from at least four forum members. These testimonials mean more to me than his test. (2) My Zaino test vehicle is almost into its third month with Zaino and the gloss is still there. It is being washed with AM's yellow car wash soap, one of the harsher such soaps-but properly diluted and rinsed.
That is real world testing.
One of the users of Diamond Plus cautioned against getting it on vinyl trim, presumably because it will stain it. It has been praised for easy application, durability, shine and price. To learn more, try www.zainostore.com , www.detailplus.com and the forums at www.mobileworks.com
Doug
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Re: Water beading as a test for wax? December 25, 2006 04:14PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 201 |
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Re: Water beading as a test for wax? December 25, 2006 04:46PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 201 |
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Re: Water beading as a test for wax? December 25, 2006 07:59PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
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Re: Water beading as a test for wax? December 25, 2006 08:02PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
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Re: Water beading as a test for wax? December 25, 2006 11:08PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 146 |
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Re: Water beading as a test for wax? December 25, 2006 11:08PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 146 |
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Re: Water beading as a test for wax? December 26, 2006 03:40AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 1,182 |
Bud-
New Again's post sums it up. Your test described the soap as a concentrate anyway. No, I never considered the possibility of a car wash soap that calls for 10 ounces in a gallon of water and I don't believe one exists. I didn't just crawl out from under a hood ( "been there/washed that" ).
Doug
New Again's post sums it up. Your test described the soap as a concentrate anyway. No, I never considered the possibility of a car wash soap that calls for 10 ounces in a gallon of water and I don't believe one exists. I didn't just crawl out from under a hood ( "been there/washed that" ).
Doug
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Re: Water beading as a test for wax? December 26, 2006 06:40AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
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Re: Water beading as a test for wax? December 27, 2006 11:04PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 44 |
You can use 10 ozs. of blue corral in a gallon and still be pissed halfway thru the exterior.
Philip
Manager of detail Depmnt, Hadwin White Buick, GMC
Myrtle Beach, SC
E-mail: philipwsuggs@hotmail.com
Philip
Manager of detail Depmnt, Hadwin White Buick, GMC
Myrtle Beach, SC
E-mail: philipwsuggs@hotmail.com
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Re: Water beading as a test for wax? January 14, 2007 06:05AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
Sorry it has taken so long to get back to you all with the answers to the question about the dilution ratio on the car wash shampoo and the seeming contradiction about water beading. The people who conducted the tests were away and only returned just last week.
Keep in mind that when a test is setup the testor can establish whatever protocols they wish, and as long as they tell you the protocols then you have sufficient information to judge for yourself if they are accurate or they are not.
With regard to the car wash shampoo, the person indicated that this was intentional in order to speed up the removal of the wax or sealant protection. In this case, it was to see how much reflective gloss was lost after 12 washings with a high concentrate shampoo. The accuracy of the test was certain because they used a Glossometer to make the determination.
As for the water beading, the chemist indicated to the that this was not a question of whether water beading indicated protection, the water beading, in the test situation, simply indicated that something was on the paint finish. Agree or disagree this is the protocol that was used.
And, before Ron Ketcham jumps in, this test was not done for or by the auto manufacturers to test one of AI many products, it was a simple test to provide some information to detailers to be able to judge the 25 products that were tested.
Hope this helps.
Bud Abraham
Keep in mind that when a test is setup the testor can establish whatever protocols they wish, and as long as they tell you the protocols then you have sufficient information to judge for yourself if they are accurate or they are not.
With regard to the car wash shampoo, the person indicated that this was intentional in order to speed up the removal of the wax or sealant protection. In this case, it was to see how much reflective gloss was lost after 12 washings with a high concentrate shampoo. The accuracy of the test was certain because they used a Glossometer to make the determination.
As for the water beading, the chemist indicated to the that this was not a question of whether water beading indicated protection, the water beading, in the test situation, simply indicated that something was on the paint finish. Agree or disagree this is the protocol that was used.
And, before Ron Ketcham jumps in, this test was not done for or by the auto manufacturers to test one of AI many products, it was a simple test to provide some information to detailers to be able to judge the 25 products that were tested.
Hope this helps.
Bud Abraham
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Re: Water beading as a test for wax? January 14, 2007 08:10PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 146 |
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Re: Water beading as a test for wax? January 15, 2007 05:57AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 1,182 |
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