My thought on protecting your clearcoat paint job

Much of my life has involved detailing for making money,but also enjoyment.I understand why people like to take care of their baby,and if they enjoy,washing,polishing,and waxing for something to do,well,fine.

Although,many people do not have the time,or want to do this.Either way,
I think every one wants to find a product and method that will keep their car looking new for a fair price.Although,people in the business confuse the issue by different products and methods.

You have waxes, and sealants for products.This issue alone will give different opinions from whomever you ask.
A can of wax can sell for $5.00 up to a $1,000.Although,the only differences are shine,and things they ad to make the shine last longer.Wax does not bond to the clearcoat,it melts and becomes sticky which can trap things like dirt,grime,salt into the wax which will dull the shine.It has no UV protection from the sun,and
using a polish with a wax will wear the clearcoat down over time.Dish soap such
as Dawn will strip it with little trouble.

The word "sealant" is the new term in detailing,but they have been around a long
time.They are much better than wax in the fact that they do bond to the clearcoat.
Polymers will last for six months,but acrylics are much better in the fact that
they truly bond with the acrylic clearcoat, and they do not allow the UV rays to dull the shine.Most important is,they will prevent bugs,and bird droppings from eating into your paint.

If you want to protect your car finish,and not spend a ton of money.Find a detailer who uses an acrylic sealant,and put a new coat on once a year.If you want
to do the work yourselves here is what I would suggest:First,wash the car with any dishsoap(Dawn or Joy).Second,use a claybar.Third, apply the acrylic sealant.

If you follow my advice you will keep your baby looking awesome for many years
to come.My feeling is to protect your clearcoat with the right product when you purchase your car before the bad things happen. Please feel free to send me a private message with any questions.

Bill

Which brand of acrylic sealant?

Larry
Many sealants contain polymers which only provide a weak bond to the clearcoat,
and last around six months.They are better than waxes,although,a true acrylic sealant will bond and become part of the existing clearcoat.Why,clearcoats today are basically clear acrylic paints,so you get a acrylic to acrylic bond that forms a new top coat.
Which sealant is a tough question.I can name one that is excellent,but it is very expensive ($495) for a couple of applications that is called Logisti seal.Although,there is another called 5 star shine which I have not tried that looks close to the one I use. They have a complete kit for around $100 that includes a clay bar with it.I use a product called AT-5 that is sold to detailers, they normally sell it by the gallon, but it is around $40.00 plus shipping, but that will do 32 cars.If you need more help send me a private message

Bill

Any discusss of this nature must start with definitions to completely understand how these elements related to the subject at hand, in this case, waxes and paint sealants.

POLYMER- a naturally occurring or synthetic compound consisting of large molecules made up of a linked series of repeated monomers. From the Greek "poly" meaning "many" and "mer" meaning "units."

ACRYLIC - a resin resulting from polymerization of derivatives of acrylic acids. Use in paint and powder-coatings in their thermoplastic form

ACRYLIC PAINT - is a fast-drying, synthetic plastic paint made from acrylic resin. It is valued for it's versatility and forming a glossier surface.

Paint sealants and waxes all contain about the same silicone polymers from one supplier to the other, nothing unique here.

The use of terms as defined above are done to do nothing but "dazzle" the uninformed.

Single-stage laquer or enamel paint or polyurethane enamel paint does not make any different, wax or paint sealant acts the same on all of them.

If detailers spent more time figuring out how to better run their business than what the chemical products have in them they would be far more successful.

You think car wash operators analyze the car wash chemicals they use? Heck no, it is all about getting a clean, shiny car and cost per car.

You think the quick lube stores worry about the analytical makeup of the motor oil they use. Again, no, it is which one gives them the best price and which is a good seller in the market. Valvoline; Quaker State; Pennsoil; Kendall, Shell, etc.

Just some well intentioned thoughts again

Bud Abraham

Bud

I agree with what you are saying about motor oils,but basically they are all the same thing just under different names.I believe NAPA oil is made by Pennsoil.I also agree that most car wash operators and detailers are only worried about the cheapest products and the fastest way to make the most money.Although,I feel that the detailing business is becoming shady because anyone can say they are a detailer and jump into the market.They go to Kmart for some cheap products,and print up some cards.
I feel that it is important that I provide my customers with the best products I can find and stay current in new methods. Most people who have their car detailed
know nothing about it, and are looking for someone who can tell them what products are best for shine and protection for a fair price.

One thing I deeply feel is a major problem is the need by detailers to use a polisher for every car they do.Over use of wax and polishes will restore shine for a short time,but the problem of swirls and minor scratches are only going to
come right back.I believe that a layer of residue will form that will harden from
adding countless coats of waxes or sealants plus polishes that will breakdown the clearcoat.Check this posting from this forum, where a guy puts on 10 coats of Zaino wax and also use a polish.Short term results for more damage down the road. [truthindetailing.com]

Bill

Yes, any business like detailing where the cost of entry is very low creates problems because you have anyone getting into the business and claiming to be a detailer.

The carpet cleaning industry is much the same, a person buys an extractor and is in the business.

The janitorial business is the same.

Even the collision repair and auto repair businesses are plagued with "back-alley" operations.

You say it is important for you to provide your customers with the "best products." What are the best products? How do you know what are good products?

The price you pay? Because a can of wax is $59.95 from some on line forum does that make it a good product?

What I have always preached is that a detailer should buy their products from one of the legitimate detail chemical companies like Auto Magic, Car Brite, PRO; Ardex, to name a few, and stick with them. That is their business, they make good products and a detailer cannot go wrong dealing with one of these legitimate companies.

Once you have your chemical line set don't waste time trying to be a chemmist or a chemical expert. Focus on building your business, the chemicals take care of themselves.

As far as using a buffer there is no problem as long as a detailer knows what they are doing and far too many self-proclaimed, experienced detailers do not know what they are doing with a buffer; buffing pads and compounds.

If a detailer knows the paint finish; can diagnose the paint finish problem and then choose the right buffing pad and the right compound they should not have a problem with swirls. If they follow the buffing with a swirl remover and polishing pad they will get rid of the micro-swirls.

The problem is that is they make a wrong diagnosis or no disagnosis and use to aggressive a compound and too aggressive a buffing pad they will scratch the paint which look like swirls, but they are scratches and you cannot remove these scratches with a swirl remover and polishing pad, you have to use a less aggressive compound and less aggressive pad.

Not aware that there is any layer of residue left to harden on the paint. Where did you hear that?

Polishes, waxes and sealants do not breakdown the clearcoat paint. What might break the paint down would be too much aggressive buffing with heavy buffing pads and heavy compounds as described above.

There is nothing wrong with putting layers of wax on the paint, but it really does nothing. It just sits on the surface and will eventually wash off.

I am having some difficulty understanding your comments on "damage down the road."

Regards
Bud Abraham

Bud
I have done boats for many years,and when you say there is nothing wrong with putting coats of wax on paint I strongly disagree.It does not just wear off,but it does just sit on the finish.I have done many boats where the owner had a company wash his boat with soap that contained wax, and had his boat waxed several times a year.I saw that these boats had a dull,dirty and a yellow look.
It required using a heavy grit compound and a high speed wheel with a wool pad to
cut through it.I found a better and safer way than just mentioned.In fact,it still toke me a couple of applications waiting six months to totally remove the the residue.I told the owners to use dawn instead of boat soap to keep it clean.

Polishes use abrasives along with a polisher and a foam pad to remove swirls and fine scratches from the clearcoat. Also,some waxes have abrasives in them.When polishing you are removing a layer of the clearcoat.If the surface is not completely clean, wax will seal the finish and trap things like pollen,
dirt,grime,bugs, and salt on top.Over time,the finish will look bad again and then the wax will need to be removed,followed by more polishing, and then 10
more cats of wax.Slowly,each time the clearcoat will be shaved down.
I do not use correction on my cars.Why,because some things are not going to be fixed without wet sanding,compounding,and polishing.It is something I do not want to do.If I make a mistake by burning through the paint,I do not want to pay for a paint job.
I believe there is a better way.I have learned thru many years using the sealant I use now that protection is the way.Why,I have had several cars thru the
years where all I did was apply a coat of the sealant every year. They were outside, never waxed or polished, and no damage.Many people who I did the same thing to their cars called me back to reapply the sealant.Washing with Dawn is all
you need to do for it to stay clean and maintain the shine.

Buffer Bill is Back

Bill, I appreciate your commentary, but the reality is that waxes do, in fact, wear off the surface of car, boat RV etc. This is not opinion, this is scientific fact based on the ingredients used in waxes. Talk to any chemist,the ingredients in waxes will only stand up to environmental conditions for so long and that is it. A boat gel coat is much like a single stage paint, they oxidize and that is what you are taking off is oxidation, not wax.

You mean compounds have abrasives in them to correct paint finish problems.

Polishes or swirl removers are formulated to be used after the compound to remove scratches and swirls caused by the cutting pad and compound.

A true wax or sealant does not have abrasive in it. There are cheap one-step products that have a light abrasive in them and a cheap wax like protection product but they are not waxes or sealants in the professional sense of the word.

What are you talking about the "clear-coat" is shaved down. Where do you get your information from. A buffing with compound might take off .03 of a mil of clear. There is no reason to buff a paint finish 3 or 4 times a year. And it certainly is not the wax that causes the paint to need buffing. It is scratching, oxidation and water spotting, dulling etc. Not wax.

You are correct that Dawn, a dishwashing detergent with degreasers it in will strip of the car of oil film and wax since wax is oil-based.

Regards
Bud Abraham

Bud
My point is this,waxes do not have any UV protection,they do not stop damage from bird droppings,treesap,or acid rain,they do melt at low temps, and they can trap things under and on top of the layer of wax.You may have a point about waxes wearing off given time,but on a boat in hot and humid conditions, do you really think it is smart to apply something that makes salt easier to bond to the gelcoat and start etching it.As the wax melts,the salt will get closer to the gel and will then attach to it directly.The abrasives in compound are used to shave
off the damaged gel to expose another layer that has a shine.You just mentioned that wax is oil based,so would there be any difference if I put sun tan oil on my boat instead of wax?
When you wet sand a car are you removing clearcoat? Yes.You just stated that compounding can remove clear by taking out scratches, and then using polishes will remove more.Granted it may be a small amount,but it is wearing down the clear.I agree that there is no reason to buff your car 3 or 4 times a year,
but there are alot of people who use polishes with a buffer every time they wax.


I have seen detailers that use correction on every car they do.Look, all I am trying to say is that I rarely ever see a car that I have done 2 or 3 times that
has needed any polishing with the acrylic sealant I use.

Bill

This is an interesting dialogue. Wondering where you get your information on wax and sealant products from???

1. How do you know that waxes/sealants do not have UV blockers in them?
2. Waxes and sealants only offer a slight protective barrier against acid rain; acids in bird droppings, eggs, etc, they are not intended to be a permanent barrier only a sacrifical barrier.
3. If you clean the surface before putting wax/sealant on the surface there is no problem.
4. Why would you say that wax would make salt bond to the finish. Our tests indicate that salt water destroys wax or sealant. And, if gelcoat was going to etch from salt water it would etch no amount of wax or sealant will prevent that or cause that, it is the salt water that does that.
5. You are correct, compound used with a buffer and cutting pad takes off the oxidized layer on the gel coat. Your point?
6. What I said about waxes is that they contain mineral oil, solvents, surfactants, coloring and wax. The combination of these various ingredients create a product that will offer some protection to a painted or gel coat surface. I do not think that suntan oil is formulated to protect against oxidation only to protect against the sun's UV rays on the sking.
7. Yes, we agree that sanding, buffing with compound does remove clear-coat or paint from the surface. I do not recommend sanding a factory clear coat as they are too thin. Aftermarket clears are applied thicker than factory clears because the paint shop oftens sands them for a better final finish.
8. Polishes or swirl removers have very little abrasive in them so that is not an issues. It is the right use of cutting pads and compounds to create a problem. If there is no problem then agreed, do not buff with a compound, only polish.
9. Agreed that many who call themselves detailers do not know how to diagnose a paint finish problem, nor do they really understand the compounds and buffing pads they are using and attack paint finishes too aggressively.

10. What is an acrylic sealant? Is it different than a polymer sealant or a silicone sealant or a sealant that contains siloxane?

Regards

Bud

In the link below, read TOGWT's(A 35 year Chemical Engineer in Petrochemical/Polymer Industries) post about wax and UV protection. [truthindetailing.com] clearly states waxes have no UV protection. Mineral oil is sticky,so once again I ask this:Why do you want to put something on a finish that is going to give salt water or the many other bad things somthing to attach to.My point is, putting nothing on would make more sense than wax.When you combine heat and wax along with salt water,dirt,and grime,it forms a hard film that is very hard to remove.If you keep compounding the gelcoat to remove oxidation then how long will it be before you wear the gel down to a point where shine does not come back. I have seen this happen,but it does take time. What is an acrylic sealant?A polymer sealant is good for UV protection, but it will not stop bird droppings,acid rain, or tree sap from damaging the surface.Although, an acrylic sealant does, and for a much longer time. I will post a short video of a SUV that has had bird poop on it for at least a week. I will then wash it with Dawn and use well water to make the point of how tough it is.The last time the acrylic sealant was applied was 3 months ago,and you will see that there will be no damage, and it will have an awesome shine

Bill

It appears you have your opinions and I have mine so let's just leave it at that. We formulate chemicals so I do know what we put in our products and how they perform. Not sure where you get your verifiable scientific information but it doesn't matter you can believe as you wish.

Regards

Bud
That is fair enough, and thank you for my right to have my opinion.You formulate
your products and I hope you know what they do,but that does not mean you are an expert on every product in the detailing field.You asked me questions and I answered them.I would suggest you look at this web site for for verifiable scientific info an acrylic sealants and what they can do. I helped put this
product on 2-737'800's in Houston Texas in 2005 for the owner of this company.
He has spent alot of money testing this product. [www.logisticlean.com]

Bill

Will review the site with my chemist but my suspicion is that this product is just another good sealant, but the company has "paid the price" for testing to prove that their product does what other sealants claim to do.

We had two comparison tests conducted in the late 80's and early 2000's on several paint sealants and waxes, including DIAMOND PLUS, our product to test:

a. Percentage of reflective shine increase before and after applications using a Glossometer.

b. Percentage loss of reflective shine after 12 washings using the same Glossometer

c. Resistence to salt water corrosion using a testing method similiar to that mentioned on this product's website.

Most chemical companies in the field do not find the need to set up these tests, which any of them can do. They prove only that the product does what they say it will do within certain perameters.

Whether you want to admit it or not, there is only so much chemistry you can put into a quart or gallon of paint sealant.

Reality!!!! Paint Sealants are NOTHING but basic chemistry that all chemical companies with competent chemists, know about.

Paint Sealants are formulated with the following:

Silicones
Solvents
Surfactants
Some with slight abrasives
Some with waxes (natural or synthetic)
Oils
Colorants
Fragrance

That is it, "basic chemistry." Nothing magic or revolutionary. What makes one product different than the other is the amount of and type of silicones, surfactants, etc.

For example, the ingredients that enhance shine, take away from durability.

In our tests the two products out of 25 tested that were #1 and #2 in percentage of reflective shine were #18 and #19 in the salt water durability test. Proving what my chemist had always told me.

Bottomline Bill, does not matter what sealant you use how successful you are in the detailing business. Use your product, use my product or anyone else's, if you do a good detail job you will be successful.

Of course if you pay $45 to $100 for a quart of sealant vs $23 to $25 a gallon of another you wil make more money with the lower priced product. Our DIAMOND PLUS, for example, sells for only $23.95 a gallon.

I will give you my chemist's evaluation of your Logisticlean Reports.

Regards
Bud Abraham

Bud

I am confused,if you do a good job you will be successful?Although,what you consider a good job may be different from what someone else thinks.If someone
details my car and I pay $125, and it looks great when I pick it up,but two days later swirl marks appear when it is out in the sun.Also, stains come back on the
carpet,Well,was it really a good job?


What makes me different from a chemist is that I have put this sealant on many vehicles since 1993.Were your products tested again'st the product I use? No.
They were tested again'st waxes and hybrid waxes which in most cases provide
only shine and that is about it. TOWGT's posts state that very clearly, and he
is a chemist.



I live in a town were there are more detailers than in a major city.They come and go,and I can say that they all use the standard waxes and products.They try to do as many cars as they can in a day,and charge as much as they can.Although, what happens is that they get complaints, or they run out of customers.


I have never once had one person tell me to use wax when I told him/her of the benefits of the sealant I use.They may not see them right away, but in a year
they are convinced.I do not mean to be rude,but are you a detailer or someone selling products.On many of these forums,it is a place to push products.They change like the wind, this product is hot and two months later it is on closeout.
They are replaced with the same product under a new name.


I am not here to push products,or is anyone paying me. I have many years of actual
experience using this product in the most harsh place in the U.S..I could use any product,but I do not need a chemist to tell me what my customers do.They are the
only tests results I care about. Your chemist is not a detailer, so I would listen to what your customers needs are.Doing a good job in my opinion is to use the best products I can find that keep my customers vehicles protected from the elements, and spending the proper amount of time cleaning to make it look new for a fair price. What I do is an investment in keeping their car looking great for many years.Not applying something that is a short term effect.

im back lol

Car Detailing Charlotte
704-464-0163
[www.cardetailingcharlotte.com]
Charlotte, NC 28246



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/14/2010 03:52AM by Charlotte.

Whoa ! Error ! Zaino is NOT a wax. It is a Poly Sealant and can be applied in as many coats as you want.

Waxes do not destroy the clearcoat. The only thing being destroyed is the credibility of this forum.

Is this knocking of Zaino a sleazy attempt to promote a competitor ? I suspect so.

Doug