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Re: Water beading as a test for wax? WARNING!!!Ron May 13, 2005 01:30PM |
Registered: 16 years ago Posts: 641 |
<HTML>Can't be a "personal" attack, in the first place.
After all, you have never made it know to any forums that you are a person.
A person has history, a true, given name, they are real, and not afraid to step out and tell their audience who they are.
Everyone know who I am, everyone knows that they can contact me at anytime.
I have nothing to hide.
Your "hiding" is what concerns the members of this and other forums.
Just as your defense and twisting, changing your posistion on the test that I questioned.
I would have questioned it no matter what my posistion in the industry would be.
The statement you made reqarding how the test was done with "application of the various products according to the products directions, and then eveyone finds out that it was not true.
Cure time, can you explain why one or two products, whose instructions on the labels state 5 to 10 minutes, or 5 to 30 minutes, etc etc, were given anywhere from 12 to 24 and in the case of two products, 48 hours of cure time before being subjected to the washing part of the test?
Let's start there, as t is doubtful you will present who you "are", so let's go with the easy one.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it at all!
After all, you have never made it know to any forums that you are a person.
A person has history, a true, given name, they are real, and not afraid to step out and tell their audience who they are.
Everyone know who I am, everyone knows that they can contact me at anytime.
I have nothing to hide.
Your "hiding" is what concerns the members of this and other forums.
Just as your defense and twisting, changing your posistion on the test that I questioned.
I would have questioned it no matter what my posistion in the industry would be.
The statement you made reqarding how the test was done with "application of the various products according to the products directions, and then eveyone finds out that it was not true.
Cure time, can you explain why one or two products, whose instructions on the labels state 5 to 10 minutes, or 5 to 30 minutes, etc etc, were given anywhere from 12 to 24 and in the case of two products, 48 hours of cure time before being subjected to the washing part of the test?
Let's start there, as t is doubtful you will present who you "are", so let's go with the easy one.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it at all!
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Re: Water beading as a test for wax? WARNING!!!Ron May 13, 2005 01:55PM |
Registered: 16 years ago Posts: 751 |
<HTML>Hey, back off of old Grumpy nuts .
The one thing he has is credibility , I have called him countless times asking for advice or information , and always get an answer without any "selling ' involved . I might not always like what he tells me , and I am sure my questions seem bone headed at times, but there are not many other chemical companies out there where you can call one of the principals and speak to him directly .
Therein lies the difference, the "Chemist ' attacks Ron's credibilty , while having none of his/her own..
Jim Hammill.</HTML>
The one thing he has is credibility , I have called him countless times asking for advice or information , and always get an answer without any "selling ' involved . I might not always like what he tells me , and I am sure my questions seem bone headed at times, but there are not many other chemical companies out there where you can call one of the principals and speak to him directly .
Therein lies the difference, the "Chemist ' attacks Ron's credibilty , while having none of his/her own..
Jim Hammill.</HTML>
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Re: Water beading as a test for wax? WARNING!!!Ron May 13, 2005 07:19PM |
Registered: 16 years ago Posts: 118 |
<HTML>I wouldn't want God's job, there is way to much to do.
THE CHEMIST:
Anonymity surely is the right of any human being and should be respected I agree, but please ask yourself when presenting valuable information that you hope will be helpful to others this question:
Am I willing to go to any length to prove the information I have presented here, and can I do that without breaking my anonymity?
Might I suggest you give people an out. In other words, give them a way to begin trusting you and I am sure the results will be favorable.
If you are as intelligent as you seem to be, then I am sure you will understand. It takes work, and some people are willing to do it and some are not, but at least you gave them an out for their inspection. Trust is not a birth right, it is earned!</HTML>
Detailing, An Art In Motion!
THE CHEMIST:
Anonymity surely is the right of any human being and should be respected I agree, but please ask yourself when presenting valuable information that you hope will be helpful to others this question:
Am I willing to go to any length to prove the information I have presented here, and can I do that without breaking my anonymity?
Might I suggest you give people an out. In other words, give them a way to begin trusting you and I am sure the results will be favorable.
If you are as intelligent as you seem to be, then I am sure you will understand. It takes work, and some people are willing to do it and some are not, but at least you gave them an out for their inspection. Trust is not a birth right, it is earned!</HTML>
Detailing, An Art In Motion!
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Re: Water beading as a test for wax? WARNING!!!Ron May 13, 2005 07:53PM |
Registered: 16 years ago Posts: 118 |
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Re: Water beading as a test for wax? WARNING!!!Ron May 13, 2005 09:27PM |
Registered: 16 years ago Posts: 118 |
<HTML>Anthony:
Great Topic!
You ask what I think about this. First off to be fair to Sal, Are these Sal's actual words on this subject?
But in regards to the piece on: "Water beading and sheeting . . . as a measure of durability"
I first went to good old websters for a definition of durability and I found this simple description: Capable of withstanding wear or decay.
Second, I am an employee of Toyota and I see new cars with beads on them all the time (Seattle rain you know), the beads are all the same size, and none of the painted surfaces are sheeting water. Only after paint seal is applied do the beads decrease in size very tightly together uniformly. Customers have brought their vehicles back to us 4 to 6 months later for a re-newer and the beads are back to where they started when the vehicles paint was brand new. Many times these cars have contaminates present that need to be removed.
Beading alone is not a measure of durability. It is just a surface phenomenon (surface tension) — remember, water will even bead up on your yard when it starts to rain, but as soon as at gets water logged it seeps down into the yard. It takes much more than beads for true durability.</HTML>
Detailing, An Art In Motion!
Great Topic!
You ask what I think about this. First off to be fair to Sal, Are these Sal's actual words on this subject?
But in regards to the piece on: "Water beading and sheeting . . . as a measure of durability"
I first went to good old websters for a definition of durability and I found this simple description: Capable of withstanding wear or decay.
Second, I am an employee of Toyota and I see new cars with beads on them all the time (Seattle rain you know), the beads are all the same size, and none of the painted surfaces are sheeting water. Only after paint seal is applied do the beads decrease in size very tightly together uniformly. Customers have brought their vehicles back to us 4 to 6 months later for a re-newer and the beads are back to where they started when the vehicles paint was brand new. Many times these cars have contaminates present that need to be removed.
Beading alone is not a measure of durability. It is just a surface phenomenon (surface tension) — remember, water will even bead up on your yard when it starts to rain, but as soon as at gets water logged it seeps down into the yard. It takes much more than beads for true durability.</HTML>
Detailing, An Art In Motion!
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Re: Water beading as a test for wax? WARNING!!!Ron May 13, 2005 10:00PM |
Registered: 16 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Amen, amen, Steve. It was never my intention to get into a battle of words nor who is right and who is wrong with Mr. Ketcham. But when he attacks my personal integrity and the integrity of a test that cost a substantial amount of money to conduct, I have to defend myself which is what turned into a battle of words.
In his effort to discredit the test and the testors and my company he allowed this to get out of hand.
No test is perfect, but I can guarantee you all that there was NEVER an intent to slant this test in any way, shape or form. I did not fall off the turnip truck, I know that professional detailers are savy people and know a turnip from a carrot, I certainly would not try to slant a test one way or another.
In any case, as far as I am concerned nothing more will come from me on the forum about the test. If anyone has questions please email me directly.
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
In his effort to discredit the test and the testors and my company he allowed this to get out of hand.
No test is perfect, but I can guarantee you all that there was NEVER an intent to slant this test in any way, shape or form. I did not fall off the turnip truck, I know that professional detailers are savy people and know a turnip from a carrot, I certainly would not try to slant a test one way or another.
In any case, as far as I am concerned nothing more will come from me on the forum about the test. If anyone has questions please email me directly.
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
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Re: Water beading as a test for wax? WARNING!!!Ron May 13, 2005 11:37PM |
Registered: 16 years ago Posts: 51 |
<HTML>Quote: Beading alone is not a measure of durability. It is just a surface phenomenon (surface tension) — remember, water will even bead up on your yard when it starts to rain, but as soon as at gets water logged it seeps down into the yard. It takes much more than beads for true durability. : Stephen Britz
I don’t see any conflict with either of the statements made
Quote: b) Water beading- [: convex beads that have a small, tight symmetrical shape due to cohesion] although you cannot equate a products beading ability to protection and durability, if an applied product continues to `bead' water, one wash after another, then that would prove that whatever it is that is causing high surface tension is not washing off. Beading is indicative, not conclusive proof of protection JonM
In fact this was written indicate that water beading on a paint surface has nothing to do with either protection or product durability
JonM</HTML>
[ each one / teach one, then student /becomes teacher ]
I don’t see any conflict with either of the statements made
Quote: b) Water beading- [: convex beads that have a small, tight symmetrical shape due to cohesion] although you cannot equate a products beading ability to protection and durability, if an applied product continues to `bead' water, one wash after another, then that would prove that whatever it is that is causing high surface tension is not washing off. Beading is indicative, not conclusive proof of protection JonM
In fact this was written indicate that water beading on a paint surface has nothing to do with either protection or product durability
JonM</HTML>
[ each one / teach one, then student /becomes teacher ]
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Re: Water beading as a test for wax? WARNING!!!Ron May 14, 2005 02:16AM |
Registered: 16 years ago Posts: 210 |
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Re: Water beading as a test for wax? WARNING!!!Ron May 14, 2005 07:48AM |
Registered: 16 years ago Posts: 466 |
<HTML>Hey Stephan,
I was told that those words are from Sal Zaino.....off his website. I di dnot confirm it as I have never visited his site. Perhaps I need to look into that.
I believe that water beading will only occur on a slick surface, in regards to a painted surface such as a car I do not believe that water will bead on a car that is oxidized or contaminated. Once that car is buffed and clayed, no wax or polish applied, I am fairly certain you would have water beading because the surface is now slick.
So perhaps rigt after a wax job the water beads are tighter in circumference, not because the wax is causing it (because we know water beads on unwaxed, but clean paint) but rather because the freshly applied wax or sealant is "enhancing" it ? That is my thought on the subject.
Thanks for the input.
Anthony</HTML>
Details, Details, Details....It's all in the details!
www.UltimateReflections.NET
I was told that those words are from Sal Zaino.....off his website. I di dnot confirm it as I have never visited his site. Perhaps I need to look into that.
I believe that water beading will only occur on a slick surface, in regards to a painted surface such as a car I do not believe that water will bead on a car that is oxidized or contaminated. Once that car is buffed and clayed, no wax or polish applied, I am fairly certain you would have water beading because the surface is now slick.
So perhaps rigt after a wax job the water beads are tighter in circumference, not because the wax is causing it (because we know water beads on unwaxed, but clean paint) but rather because the freshly applied wax or sealant is "enhancing" it ? That is my thought on the subject.
Thanks for the input.
Anthony</HTML>
Details, Details, Details....It's all in the details!
www.UltimateReflections.NET
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Re: Water beading as a test for wax? WARNING!!!Ron May 16, 2005 05:41PM |
Registered: 16 years ago Posts: 118 |
<HTML>Anthony:
"So perhaps rigt after a wax job the water beads are tighter in circumference, not because the wax is causing it (because we know water beads on unwaxed, but clean paint) but rather because the freshly applied wax or sealant is "enhancing" it ?"
"Enhancing it"- Enhancing surface tension?
Example: Fisheyes on newly painted vehicles, it is not the contaminate in the painting process that creates the fisheye (certainly couldn't happen without it) but the surface tension surrounding the contaminate that makes it visual to us.
As the surface tension becomes more dense per wax/paint seal, so are the beads (small and uniform).</HTML>
Detailing, An Art In Motion!
"So perhaps rigt after a wax job the water beads are tighter in circumference, not because the wax is causing it (because we know water beads on unwaxed, but clean paint) but rather because the freshly applied wax or sealant is "enhancing" it ?"
"Enhancing it"- Enhancing surface tension?
Example: Fisheyes on newly painted vehicles, it is not the contaminate in the painting process that creates the fisheye (certainly couldn't happen without it) but the surface tension surrounding the contaminate that makes it visual to us.
As the surface tension becomes more dense per wax/paint seal, so are the beads (small and uniform).</HTML>
Detailing, An Art In Motion!
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Re: Water beading as a test for wax? WARNING!!!Ron May 16, 2005 07:53PM |
Registered: 16 years ago Posts: 466 |
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Re: Water beading as a test for wax? WARNING!!!Ron May 16, 2005 10:28PM |
Registered: 16 years ago Posts: 51 |
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Re: Water beading as a test for wax? WARNING!!!Ron May 17, 2005 05:45PM |
Registered: 16 years ago Posts: 1 |
<HTML>I don't mean to take sides here because I respect Ketch, Bud and Anthony, but I can certainly attest to The Chemist's expertise in this industry based on numerous emails we exchanged in the past. I don't know, maybe I was just eating the information she gave me right out of her hand, but in any event I was pretty impressed with her level of knowledge.
SomeSlutsKid</HTML>
SomeSlutsKid</HTML>
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Re: Water beading as a test for wax? WARNING!!!Ron May 17, 2005 06:02PM |
Registered: 16 years ago Posts: 64 |
<HTML>A big part of our business is evaluating products within real world situations. We have a series of methods that we follow and test the products for all important issues that both a detailer and customer deem important.
I can tell you this, we have tested several sealers that lasted 4-6 months a a handful that lasted up to 12 months. Few "waxes" lasted longer than three months with most failing within 1-8weeks.
We apply all as directed and allow to cure 24 hours before exposure. Again, our test are performed on real vehciles that are exposed to like environments within several areas of the country.
Someone mentioned the Guru reports earlier and I professionally feel that the report fell short in many areas. Products that were provided high reviews within the report performed terrible within ours and others that were given poor reviews were high performers. I feel that so many that test have an "angle" of one kind or another and fail to cross over and test within several environments.
Our test are for self use and assist us in making certain we are using the best possible products...others such as the Guru Report I feel simply fall short on reality. When I hear someone say that no wax or sealer will last longer than 6 months...that person needs to expand thier horizons a tad!</HTML>
Renny Doyle
Attention To Details
Aircraft & Auto Detailing
www.detailingsuccess.com
Proud Detailers of Air Force One!
PDTA Member
I can tell you this, we have tested several sealers that lasted 4-6 months a a handful that lasted up to 12 months. Few "waxes" lasted longer than three months with most failing within 1-8weeks.
We apply all as directed and allow to cure 24 hours before exposure. Again, our test are performed on real vehciles that are exposed to like environments within several areas of the country.
Someone mentioned the Guru reports earlier and I professionally feel that the report fell short in many areas. Products that were provided high reviews within the report performed terrible within ours and others that were given poor reviews were high performers. I feel that so many that test have an "angle" of one kind or another and fail to cross over and test within several environments.
Our test are for self use and assist us in making certain we are using the best possible products...others such as the Guru Report I feel simply fall short on reality. When I hear someone say that no wax or sealer will last longer than 6 months...that person needs to expand thier horizons a tad!</HTML>
Renny Doyle
Attention To Details
Aircraft & Auto Detailing
www.detailingsuccess.com
Proud Detailers of Air Force One!
PDTA Member
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Re: Water beading as a test for wax? WARNING!!!Ron May 18, 2005 04:45AM |
Registered: 16 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
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Re: Water beading as a test for wax? WARNING!!!Ron May 18, 2005 11:38AM |
Registered: 16 years ago Posts: 243 |
<HTML>Why can't someone or group, say Hmmmmm "SAE" develope a test for the Sealants and Waxes.
Report the findings, then we can make our decisions, of what to purchase.
I was called a "Fool" by one of our Guru's of this forum, for expanding my findings and personal thoughts for a product thats specially formulated to work in the Aluminum and Stainless Steel Cleaning/Polishing Business.
A designed test that will give meaningful results, and that can be used as a standard of the industry,say as they did with Motor Oils, would be a god send. Thus eleminating all of the "VOODOO" of this that ,or the others "B.S." thats put forth into print.
One things for sure if it doesn't bead water the way you want it too, clean it, and seal or wax it.
Any wax or sealant is better than nothing at all. It's not like your having to purchase the Queen Mary, just a can of sealant or wax.
This would be like running a piece of equipment without lubrication, because you didn't have the right grade oil. Well any, is better than none at all! Wouldn't you agree, but who does agree on this forum anyway?
Jesus Christ, get on with life, and stop being confrontational.
If you want to be confrontational, go to your local bar, and do so. Then you can do your own test of either "A" whipping everybody in the house, or "B" get the living Sh!t stomped out of you.</HTML>
Report the findings, then we can make our decisions, of what to purchase.
I was called a "Fool" by one of our Guru's of this forum, for expanding my findings and personal thoughts for a product thats specially formulated to work in the Aluminum and Stainless Steel Cleaning/Polishing Business.
A designed test that will give meaningful results, and that can be used as a standard of the industry,say as they did with Motor Oils, would be a god send. Thus eleminating all of the "VOODOO" of this that ,or the others "B.S." thats put forth into print.
One things for sure if it doesn't bead water the way you want it too, clean it, and seal or wax it.
Any wax or sealant is better than nothing at all. It's not like your having to purchase the Queen Mary, just a can of sealant or wax.
This would be like running a piece of equipment without lubrication, because you didn't have the right grade oil. Well any, is better than none at all! Wouldn't you agree, but who does agree on this forum anyway?
Jesus Christ, get on with life, and stop being confrontational.
If you want to be confrontational, go to your local bar, and do so. Then you can do your own test of either "A" whipping everybody in the house, or "B" get the living Sh!t stomped out of you.</HTML>
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Re: Water beading as a test for wax? WARNING!!!Ron May 18, 2005 02:28PM |
Registered: 16 years ago Posts: 894 |
<HTML>Eric,
Im with you all the way brother!! This whole discussion is a complete bore and is competely different from what Anthony started off with!!
We all know that on some products with the proper application, you can see with your own eyes, the products protecting againts bird droppings, water spots, etc.., for 6 solid months. As far as appearance goes, thats another story, the appearance of any product will be gone within 2 months, 3 months at the most, on a driven car.
In short, use what you want, try to find an easy on easy off product, just make sure your back to do the car every 2-3 months. That 6 month paint sealant stuff is for customers with the POS cars that get detailed once a year and need that sort of protection. Oh, and its good for my rig because Im too tired to detail it every 2 months,LOL!!!
Dan Draper
DRAPERSAUTOIMAGERY.com</HTML>
Im with you all the way brother!! This whole discussion is a complete bore and is competely different from what Anthony started off with!!
We all know that on some products with the proper application, you can see with your own eyes, the products protecting againts bird droppings, water spots, etc.., for 6 solid months. As far as appearance goes, thats another story, the appearance of any product will be gone within 2 months, 3 months at the most, on a driven car.
In short, use what you want, try to find an easy on easy off product, just make sure your back to do the car every 2-3 months. That 6 month paint sealant stuff is for customers with the POS cars that get detailed once a year and need that sort of protection. Oh, and its good for my rig because Im too tired to detail it every 2 months,LOL!!!
Dan Draper
DRAPERSAUTOIMAGERY.com</HTML>
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Re: Water beading as a test for wax? WARNING!!!Ron May 18, 2005 02:35PM |
<HTML>I am very enthusiastically for such a SAE-like official authority that would truly rank waxes and sealants in a very scientific and objective manner.
I have no idea how such an authority could be established . I think one is long overdue. It would extremely interesting if such an establishment panned out.</HTML>
I have no idea how such an authority could be established . I think one is long overdue. It would extremely interesting if such an establishment panned out.</HTML>
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Re: Water beading as a test for wax? WARNING!!!Ron May 18, 2005 03:44PM |
Registered: 16 years ago Posts: 64 |
<HTML>Budd,
We work with two organizations that assist us with higher tech evaluations but as you well know, it's hard to beat simply watching for the protective values to fail. Shine, beading, sheeting and other important issues are also at the center of our testing which again are not difficult to judge.
My main point of even mentioning anything was the fact that when I read of test or have reviewed test, many times its the most popular products only and many small lines are left out...we test everything and I would rather see testing that includes a wide range with real world vehicles that are subjected to several environments. I feel the Guru Report was off greatly because they failed to look at the value of water sheeting vs. beading. There are a number of key factures Guru simply failed to review or simply had wrong in my opion and I see this happening again and again within other "test". When this happens, I feel the results given are not simply wrong but could be slanted and are unfair to many products that are simply not understood and tested incorrectly.
For anyone that has a wide range of product exposure and has worked with these products for years, one can witness the results by simple observation. To explain our process in depth within this forum would simply be a bore and something we feel we would rather not share within a public forum as this is part of our competitive edge.</HTML>
Renny Doyle
Attention To Details
Aircraft & Auto Detailing
www.detailingsuccess.com
Proud Detailers of Air Force One!
PDTA Member
We work with two organizations that assist us with higher tech evaluations but as you well know, it's hard to beat simply watching for the protective values to fail. Shine, beading, sheeting and other important issues are also at the center of our testing which again are not difficult to judge.
My main point of even mentioning anything was the fact that when I read of test or have reviewed test, many times its the most popular products only and many small lines are left out...we test everything and I would rather see testing that includes a wide range with real world vehicles that are subjected to several environments. I feel the Guru Report was off greatly because they failed to look at the value of water sheeting vs. beading. There are a number of key factures Guru simply failed to review or simply had wrong in my opion and I see this happening again and again within other "test". When this happens, I feel the results given are not simply wrong but could be slanted and are unfair to many products that are simply not understood and tested incorrectly.
For anyone that has a wide range of product exposure and has worked with these products for years, one can witness the results by simple observation. To explain our process in depth within this forum would simply be a bore and something we feel we would rather not share within a public forum as this is part of our competitive edge.</HTML>
Renny Doyle
Attention To Details
Aircraft & Auto Detailing
www.detailingsuccess.com
Proud Detailers of Air Force One!
PDTA Member
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Re: Water beading as a test for wax? WARNING!!!Ron May 18, 2005 04:48PM |
Registered: 16 years ago Posts: 641 |
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Re: Water beading as a test for wax? WARNING!!!Ron May 18, 2005 06:13PM |
Registered: 16 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Renne:
Thanks for your reply. What I would like to know is more detail on how the tests are conducted.
You seem to infer that "real world testing" is better than testing in a laboratory, which I would not agree with, unless you can show me how your tests would produce similiar results.
What do you do in the real world test that cannot be duplicated in test model?
You are absolutely correct, tests can be slanted, however name me any detail chemical company that has "stepped up" and offered to produce for the industry any test of their products along with 24 others, or more?
Other than the Guru Report, which by reading it clearly indicates it was not at all scientific. It was "real world" as you call it.
Because of all the controversy surrounding waxes and paint sealants I did "step up" for only one reason, to provide some documented evidence of how certain waxes and sealants might perform under controlled conditions.
If you and others think I would slant these tests to make our product look better then that is your choice to do so, but my reputation and that of my company is worth more to me than that.
It seems that all this controversy started because one company's product, whose sales manager posts on this site was miffed because his company's product did not fair well.
Enough said about this subject. We did what we did. If there are those that do not want to accept the results so be it.
Again, please let me know, so I can understand, exactly what kinds of tests you conduct "in the real world" that provide a controlled test result that is meaningful. I am truly interested in learning something I may not know about testing.
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
Thanks for your reply. What I would like to know is more detail on how the tests are conducted.
You seem to infer that "real world testing" is better than testing in a laboratory, which I would not agree with, unless you can show me how your tests would produce similiar results.
What do you do in the real world test that cannot be duplicated in test model?
You are absolutely correct, tests can be slanted, however name me any detail chemical company that has "stepped up" and offered to produce for the industry any test of their products along with 24 others, or more?
Other than the Guru Report, which by reading it clearly indicates it was not at all scientific. It was "real world" as you call it.
Because of all the controversy surrounding waxes and paint sealants I did "step up" for only one reason, to provide some documented evidence of how certain waxes and sealants might perform under controlled conditions.
If you and others think I would slant these tests to make our product look better then that is your choice to do so, but my reputation and that of my company is worth more to me than that.
It seems that all this controversy started because one company's product, whose sales manager posts on this site was miffed because his company's product did not fair well.
Enough said about this subject. We did what we did. If there are those that do not want to accept the results so be it.
Again, please let me know, so I can understand, exactly what kinds of tests you conduct "in the real world" that provide a controlled test result that is meaningful. I am truly interested in learning something I may not know about testing.
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
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Re: Water beading as a test for wax? WARNING!!!Ron May 18, 2005 06:26PM |
Registered: 16 years ago Posts: 641 |
<HTML>Hummm, let's do some numbers here.
For an independant lab, to do the LTR 11068 test, for 24 products @$12,000.00 per test = $288,000.00
Additional information, the test requires the use of test panels, from 4 technologies, with and without product applied.
4 panels, 4"X12 inch are prepared.
By "technologies" they are referring to the use of 3 different manufacturers of OEM base/clears and one "refinish" base/clear.
Panels cut in half to produce 48 panels, 2 1/2 " X 5".
There are 21 steps in the test protocal.
The test for one product takes 110 days to complete.
I am not going to foot that bill.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it at all!
For an independant lab, to do the LTR 11068 test, for 24 products @$12,000.00 per test = $288,000.00
Additional information, the test requires the use of test panels, from 4 technologies, with and without product applied.
4 panels, 4"X12 inch are prepared.
By "technologies" they are referring to the use of 3 different manufacturers of OEM base/clears and one "refinish" base/clear.
Panels cut in half to produce 48 panels, 2 1/2 " X 5".
There are 21 steps in the test protocal.
The test for one product takes 110 days to complete.
I am not going to foot that bill.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it at all!
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Re: Water beading as a test for wax? WARNING!!!Ron May 18, 2005 08:04PM |
Registered: 16 years ago Posts: 210 |
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Re: Society of Automotive Engineers! May 18, 2005 09:09PM |
Registered: 16 years ago Posts: 243 |
<HTML>Ketch, why can't there be a special set of tests designed and developed especially for the sealants and waxes for the industry?
We did it back in the middle 90's on Asphalt Production to standardize the product round the world.
The Chemist and Lab Rats designed a special weathering test for asphalt, that basically did what you refferred to in a matter of a few hours, enlieu of days on end.
The monies spent year in and year out on the automotive industry to maintain the vehicles, seems like there would be something developed as an "SAE" type standard, and going one step further to "ISO" the testing protocal. This would seperate the as you and Bud call it " Bath Tub Blenders"!
It could create he who has the biggest "Bath Tub", wins it all!... Brandy !</HTML>
We did it back in the middle 90's on Asphalt Production to standardize the product round the world.
The Chemist and Lab Rats designed a special weathering test for asphalt, that basically did what you refferred to in a matter of a few hours, enlieu of days on end.
The monies spent year in and year out on the automotive industry to maintain the vehicles, seems like there would be something developed as an "SAE" type standard, and going one step further to "ISO" the testing protocal. This would seperate the as you and Bud call it " Bath Tub Blenders"!
It could create he who has the biggest "Bath Tub", wins it all!... Brandy !</HTML>
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Re: Society of Automotive Engineers! May 18, 2005 10:40PM |
Registered: 16 years ago Posts: 64 |
<HTML>Budd,
I am simply stating my view and our test findings and am sure my "real world" testing cannot teach you anything new. As for sharing my testing methods...my bad for even mentioning it as I have an edge over many that opperate within our markets and have no desire to share details that have assisted us at providing high performance details to our clients. I am not a manufacture...I simply use the best products we can find and our testing is at the base of this action.
As for Guru being real world...no way...well not knowledge based real world. As for lab test being more realistic then testing conducted within a real situation...just ask any manufacture that spends millions on lab testing new vehicle models...once the models hit real roads and highways...those lab results are simply guidlines that may better the model but real roads and highways will always be the true test...to each there own on this entire discussion...our methods work for us and that is all I truly care about in the long run and any other sizeable detail organization should be doing testing also as they too will see varied results. There are many great products out there...I mean great but so many are over powered by larger brands or simply a lack of exposure or bad exposure from those that do not understand the use of the product.
Effectivly building or knocking off a product is one thing but knowing how to correctly use it or in this case test it is another subject...I am simply not sold on the fact that those conducting the test have a solid understanding of how to use all of these products. There are a number of products that are prasied on these forums that in our opion are not all that great...the finished results may be great but to get to that results is simply not realistic.
I am not a manufacture I am a detailer and I have tested 100's if not thousands of products and our team along with myself simply see the same mistakes, good press and bad press being handed out incorrectly.
So...say what you may...about who you may...the one thing these test can't do is test our preferences as professionals without a wide scale test and I have yet to see a major test do that!</HTML>
Renny Doyle
Attention To Details
Aircraft & Auto Detailing
www.detailingsuccess.com
Proud Detailers of Air Force One!
PDTA Member
I am simply stating my view and our test findings and am sure my "real world" testing cannot teach you anything new. As for sharing my testing methods...my bad for even mentioning it as I have an edge over many that opperate within our markets and have no desire to share details that have assisted us at providing high performance details to our clients. I am not a manufacture...I simply use the best products we can find and our testing is at the base of this action.
As for Guru being real world...no way...well not knowledge based real world. As for lab test being more realistic then testing conducted within a real situation...just ask any manufacture that spends millions on lab testing new vehicle models...once the models hit real roads and highways...those lab results are simply guidlines that may better the model but real roads and highways will always be the true test...to each there own on this entire discussion...our methods work for us and that is all I truly care about in the long run and any other sizeable detail organization should be doing testing also as they too will see varied results. There are many great products out there...I mean great but so many are over powered by larger brands or simply a lack of exposure or bad exposure from those that do not understand the use of the product.
Effectivly building or knocking off a product is one thing but knowing how to correctly use it or in this case test it is another subject...I am simply not sold on the fact that those conducting the test have a solid understanding of how to use all of these products. There are a number of products that are prasied on these forums that in our opion are not all that great...the finished results may be great but to get to that results is simply not realistic.
I am not a manufacture I am a detailer and I have tested 100's if not thousands of products and our team along with myself simply see the same mistakes, good press and bad press being handed out incorrectly.
So...say what you may...about who you may...the one thing these test can't do is test our preferences as professionals without a wide scale test and I have yet to see a major test do that!</HTML>
Renny Doyle
Attention To Details
Aircraft & Auto Detailing
www.detailingsuccess.com
Proud Detailers of Air Force One!
PDTA Member
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Re: Society of Automotive Engineers! May 19, 2005 01:12AM |
Registered: 16 years ago Posts: 241 |
<HTML>Excuse me, I left an "8" off the test number.
I would also like to clear up one other thing.
The testing, by an independant lab, for a sealant/wax, was about $10,000.00 per product, in "the past".
I was informed earlier this week, as we are presently in the process of finalizing a new "sealant" for introduction, by our CFO, that the test now costs $12,000.00 for the same test.
Ain't inflation wonderful?
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it all!
I would also like to clear up one other thing.
The testing, by an independant lab, for a sealant/wax, was about $10,000.00 per product, in "the past".
I was informed earlier this week, as we are presently in the process of finalizing a new "sealant" for introduction, by our CFO, that the test now costs $12,000.00 for the same test.
Ain't inflation wonderful?
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it all!
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Re: Society of Automotive Engineers! May 19, 2005 01:21AM |
Registered: 16 years ago Posts: 241 |
<HTML>All the "test" protocals are in place, notice I stated, "protocals", not a protocal.
This is because SAE and other recognized organizations specialize in various "tests".
I presented the "test" protocal number that DaimlerChrysler and others use for the testing.
It is a group of various protocals, from various organizations, put together to create a testing protocal for waxes and sealants.
That is the difficult part of attaining what you ask to be done.
And, then, as I presented, the "cost" of having this "protocal" correct testing done.
Very expensive, and not one that many companies would care to pay.
Can you blame them?
After all, so much of what is good and what is not so good, is more a matter of "personal perspective" and other more "personal" issues.
Marketing is where the real money if spent, by companies that market to the "detailer", the "home enthusists", the "want-a-be's", as you have seen here.
Many have presented "what they find to be the best", and "by their tests or experience" with a given product.
That is fine, I have no problem with them doing so, it's their world, their business, etc.
I do have a problem with any published "test" that does not provide an even playing field.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it all!
This is because SAE and other recognized organizations specialize in various "tests".
I presented the "test" protocal number that DaimlerChrysler and others use for the testing.
It is a group of various protocals, from various organizations, put together to create a testing protocal for waxes and sealants.
That is the difficult part of attaining what you ask to be done.
And, then, as I presented, the "cost" of having this "protocal" correct testing done.
Very expensive, and not one that many companies would care to pay.
Can you blame them?
After all, so much of what is good and what is not so good, is more a matter of "personal perspective" and other more "personal" issues.
Marketing is where the real money if spent, by companies that market to the "detailer", the "home enthusists", the "want-a-be's", as you have seen here.
Many have presented "what they find to be the best", and "by their tests or experience" with a given product.
That is fine, I have no problem with them doing so, it's their world, their business, etc.
I do have a problem with any published "test" that does not provide an even playing field.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it all!
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Re: Society of Automotive Engineers! May 19, 2005 01:31AM |
Registered: 16 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Renny:
Thanks for the reply.
First, understand that we too are familiar with the "real world of detailing" in that I am in the field constantly working with customers and have them test for us many of the products we formulate.
As not teaching me anything new, you are completely wrong. No matter who a person is or how much they think they know they always can learn. A great many of the techniques and ideas I promote have come from detailers, so please any ideas you are willing to share I am willing to learn from.
I was not asking you to reveal anything proprietory, but you did make a statement that you have tested products and found them to last 4 to 12 months. I only wanted to know briefly how you were able to determine that? Especially such a wide range of time?
What you say about detailers using products I would agree with to the extent that a detailer has preferences. But simply because someone likes a product does not make it a good product nor a quality product.
But it is irrelevant isn't it?
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
Thanks for the reply.
First, understand that we too are familiar with the "real world of detailing" in that I am in the field constantly working with customers and have them test for us many of the products we formulate.
As not teaching me anything new, you are completely wrong. No matter who a person is or how much they think they know they always can learn. A great many of the techniques and ideas I promote have come from detailers, so please any ideas you are willing to share I am willing to learn from.
I was not asking you to reveal anything proprietory, but you did make a statement that you have tested products and found them to last 4 to 12 months. I only wanted to know briefly how you were able to determine that? Especially such a wide range of time?
What you say about detailers using products I would agree with to the extent that a detailer has preferences. But simply because someone likes a product does not make it a good product nor a quality product.
But it is irrelevant isn't it?
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
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Re: Society of Automotive Engineers! May 19, 2005 01:34PM |
Registered: 16 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
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Re: Society of Automotive Engineers! May 19, 2005 02:03PM |
Registered: 16 years ago Posts: 641 |
<HTML>It is very similar to the test protocals for automotive paints.
After all, what is a sealant, but a sacrifical coating applied over the automotive paint?
So, I guess the vehicle manufacturer's engineering groups figure it a sealant should hold up against the same conditions.
They use the Xeon gas tests for sealant, which always troubled me, since that is for paint, until an engineer explained to me what it's really all about.
The expense for this is crazy!
But, with all that goes on for 110 days, not just letting panels set in the Florida sunshine, but lab work, etc, guess they have to justify all that expensive test equipment.
They do 8 gloss meter readings alone, during the time span of the test.
ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it at all!
After all, what is a sealant, but a sacrifical coating applied over the automotive paint?
So, I guess the vehicle manufacturer's engineering groups figure it a sealant should hold up against the same conditions.
They use the Xeon gas tests for sealant, which always troubled me, since that is for paint, until an engineer explained to me what it's really all about.
The expense for this is crazy!
But, with all that goes on for 110 days, not just letting panels set in the Florida sunshine, but lab work, etc, guess they have to justify all that expensive test equipment.
They do 8 gloss meter readings alone, during the time span of the test.
ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it at all!
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