Why is correction needed in the first place?

Bud

I ask you to answer this question ? Do swirl marks and fine scratches come from
the factory? I would hope your answer is, no.Well then, they have to be caused
by something or someone.<br>

I can tell you this as a fact. The cars I have applied the acrylic sealant to
do not have this problem, and I have been doing this since 1993.<br>

Why do people go to detailers for correction work in the first place.I would say because the car owner bought a cheap car wax that he applied the wrong way,
or washed the wax with too harsh a soap which causes the problem. He then goes to a detailer who tells him that he needs polishing to remove them, and the cycle
begins.<br>

All I am trying to say is this.If you apply an acrylic sealant on your paint once a year and avoid wax,you can avoid expensive polishing and the damaging effects.
If you get a car with this problem, tell the detailer you do not want wax used.

Bill

There are numerous reasons paint finishes on car get scratches as all professional detailers know:

a. Improper hand washing with dirty mitts and sponges
b. Washing in an automatic car wash that does not use sufficient water and
shampoo on the brushes.
c. Putting grocery bags on the top of the hood and then dragging them off
d. Something rubbing up against the paint finish when there is dirt on the car

And, by the way, many cars come from the factory with paint finishes that are not flawless.

How a wax with no abrasives in it can cause damage to paint is beyond me. I see no basis for your contention at all and unless you can logically verify how that happens, other than simply saying it, I do not agree with you.

And I would be willing to bet you $500 that I could take a vehicle on which you have applied acrylic sealant and put scratches and swirls in it from any of the above mentioned ways that swirls and scratches get in paint finishes.

Regards

Bud

There are numerous reasons why cars get scratches on them,and the ones you mentioned are some.Granted, new paint finshes come from the factory with orange peel,but I am sure they do not wax the cars there since a certain amount of time
is required for the paint to cure as you well know.<br>

It is a combination of the wax and polishes that do the damage. The polishes cause the swirls and the wax covers them up for a short time.Washing with a strong soap will also break down the wax and leave it looking smeared with fine scratches.You can clearly see that in the picture of the black hood in the article
on wax and polishing.<br>

In your article,you did not mention one thing about acrylic polymers.I assume
that you have very little experience with them.I do not doubt one bit, that you can tell me what is in most waxes and how they work.Here is the link for the
manufacture of AT-5:[www.eurochem.co.uk].
Acrylic series.<br>

Certainly, you could put scratches into the acrylic sealant,but the major difference is that you do not have to spend 10 hour removing them.In most
cases,you only need to wash the vehicle,clay it, and apply another coat by hand.<b

I realize alot of detailers make big bucks doing correction,and charging $30-$50
per hour for 10 to 20 hours is good money.Although,this would not be needed if you
used an acrylic sealant because you do not have to remove the sealant,and use abrasive polishes.<br>


Maybe you should try the product before you give an opinion about it.You have spent all this time telling me and everyone here that I am wrong,but you have
not used the product.This is like me telling you about your Diamond Plus,but I have never used it.<br>

Bill

Glad we agree on that point that scratches and swirls come from a number of sources.

You are correct, main flaws in OEM paint are orange peel.

The thermal-curing paint used in OEM factories is heated to nearly 300 degrees and is almost totally-cured when coming off the line. They recommend waiting 21 days before waxing factory paint.

The factory does repair flaws in the assembly paint and when they complete the repair they use an acid-catalyzed thermal curing paint which takes less heat to cure, but it is still higher than after market paint which can only be cured at about 140 degrees F.

If the factory sands and buffs they use only compounds and swirl removers/polishes that have no silicones or waxes in them so that the paint has time to cure to prevent solvent-popping.

I have never observed factory buffs but have seen the Nissan after assembly line repair facility and it looks much like a body shop.

So, it is possible that the factory does leave or could leave some swirls/scratches in the paint.

Do not mean to get "picky" but you are now changing your story. Before you constantly said that it was "WAXES" that caused the scratches and swirls in the paint now you are saying "WAXES & POLISHES." Which is it?

I would agree with you, if a detailer that did not know what he was doing, whether he worked in a pre-delivery center; auto auction; dealership or a independent detail operation, and he used a "POLISH" (by the way, how do you define a polish?), he could leave scratches and swirls in the paint as I said in one of my other replies. But using ONLY WAX he could not leave swirls and scratches unless he used a high speed buffer, a wool pad and a dirty one at that to apply the wax.

If you wash the car with something like DAWN, a degreasing dishwash detergent I grant you that you will breakdown the wax and sealant for that matter. But it is unlikely it would be smeary, since the degreasing agents would emulsify the wax and wash it off the car.

You never did define for my what an acrylic is? What is it?

My chemists and the two that gave me the information on waxes and sealants who, for a living formulate paint sealants, completely disagreed with everything you have said and found that the company's website you said to view said nothing that any paint sealant company before them has said about their "miracle product."

You and they have made claims that go against what other experts, not me, as I am not a chemist, have said about sealants. And they further indicated that your use of acrylic means nothing because the ingredients in most sealants contain what you would call an acrylic, if you knew the defintion.

It is ok to disagree as you and I are doing. Nothing personal, it is not about you or me, it is about what you say and what I say.

My purpose in spending time with your posts is that it does provide a way for other detailers in the industry to become educated and to know what they don't know and to look for more information or ask the right questions of their suppliers to see if they are getting the right answers or "snake oil claims" about waxes and sealants.

All the best and I appreciate your passion about your product, but I cannot share it with you because you have not documented any of your claims, you have only made the claims. And the company's website and information does not document anything either. What they say are just "marketing claims" to make sales.

Bill

Glad we agree on that point that scratches and swirls come from a number of sources.

You are correct, main flaws in OEM paint are orange peel.

The thermal-curing paint used in OEM factories is heated to nearly 300 degrees and is almost totally-cured when coming off the line. They recommend waiting 21 days before waxing factory paint.

The factory does repair flaws in the assembly paint and when they complete the repair they use an acid-catalyzed thermal curing paint which takes less heat to cure, but it is still higher than after market paint which can only be cured at about 140 degrees F.

If the factory sands and buffs they use only compounds and swirl removers/polishes that have no silicones or waxes in them so that the paint has time to cure to prevent solvent-popping.

I have never observed factory buffs but have seen the Nissan after assembly line repair facility and it looks much like a body shop.

So, it is possible that the factory does leave or could leave some swirls/scratches in the paint.

Do not mean to get "picky" but you are now changing your story. Before you constantly said that it was "WAXES" that caused the scratches and swirls in the paint now you are saying "WAXES & POLISHES." Which is it?

I would agree with you, if a detailer that did not know what he was doing, whether he worked in a pre-delivery center; auto auction; dealership or a independent detail operation, and he used a "POLISH" (by the way, how do you define a polish?), he could leave scratches and swirls in the paint as I said in one of my other replies. But using ONLY WAX he could not leave swirls and scratches unless he used a high speed buffer, a wool pad and a dirty one at that to apply the wax.

If you wash the car with something like DAWN, a degreasing dishwash detergent I grant you that you will breakdown the wax and sealant for that matter. But it is unlikely it would be smeary, since the degreasing agents would emulsify the wax and wash it off the car.

You never did define for my what an acrylic is? What is it?

My chemists and the two that gave me the information on waxes and sealants who, for a living formulate paint sealants, completely disagreed with everything you have said and found that the company's website you said to view said nothing that any paint sealant company before them has said about their "miracle product."

You and they have made claims that go against what other experts, not me, as I am not a chemist, have said about sealants. And they further indicated that your use of acrylic means nothing because the ingredients in most sealants contain what you would call an acrylic, if you knew the defintion.

It is ok to disagree as you and I are doing. Nothing personal, it is not about you or me, it is about what you say and what I say.

My purpose in spending time with your posts is that it does provide a way for other detailers in the industry to become educated and to know what they don't know and to look for more information or ask the right questions of their suppliers to see if they are getting the right answers or "snake oil claims" about waxes and sealants.

All the best and I appreciate your passion about your product, but I cannot share it with you because you have not documented any of your claims, you have only made the claims. And the company's website and information does not document anything either. What they say are just "marketing claims" to make sales.

Bud

I do not think I have changed what I have said about wax.I have always said that I thought correction was over used,and that wax has many drawbacks.Basically,it
puts a shine on your paint, and covers swirl marks.As far as protection goes,
it is a sticky film that will cover the paint that traps dirt, grime, salt,pollen,
and many others things,and prevents contact with the clearcoat.Lastly,it provides
no real protection,and it requires a person with skill to remove it properly.<br>


As far as the claims go,did you watch my video?Did you hear what the owner said?
We washed it with Dawn and well water after being applied 3 months earlier,and the finish still looked great.I do not see anyone else doing that with the products they use.Although,I do see commercials where they dump lighter fliud
on the paint and light it,or acid on it.Is that what you consider proof?<br>


I showed you a website where the owner spend alot of money testing this product,
and you picked it apart.This product was tested on two 737's for one year, and
it showed a one percent decrease in fuel costs,plus pictures of the aircraft,and
that was still not good enough.I do not think American Airlines would be using the product if they did not think it worked.<br>


You keep saying it is my product,and to my best knowledge I do not have anything to do with the Chemical Guys website or with Gem Industries.I am just a guy who
was around when this technology came around down here in South Florida back in the late 80's, and have been using it ever since.<br>


If you want to educate people then at least try the product before you judge it.
I to want the same thing as you do,but swirl marks are still a common problem
and it is clear that using the same products and methods are not helping.<br>


What people are looking for is a product that they can apply that will protect
their paint from damage, and continue to look great without spending a small
fortune.Let's face it, most pros think if wax beads,it has a great shine,and it is easy to apply that is considered a protection product.<br>


No one is concerned on how to stop the damage from the sun,bugs,bird crap,well water,acid rain, salt and many more.Clearly,waxes do not do that.Although, there are plenty of detailers who know how to fix it or cover it up.<br>


I see people who want to get into the detail business because they see the
money.They think I can open a business cheap, and how hard is it to learn.These
people come and go because they never figure out one thing.Customers come to you for help on how to maintain their car looking great for a fair price.<br>

It is clear that the industry is not concerned with this.There are so many waxes
and polishes doing basically the same thing that no wonder the public is confused,
and so are the detailers.I see these wonderful before and after pics of correction,but how about six months later?Do they still look that good?,<br>


I show a SUV that was done 3 months ago, and wash it with Dawn and well water and
that you consider is not proof.Well,what else can I say or do.<br>

Wax does not scratch paint and I do not believe wax can trap contaminants. Bill is in error.

Many cars are kept in great shape through frequent waxing.

I have used over 40 different car waxes and suffered no paint damage from doing so. The makers would be out of business if they sold a harmful product.

Sealants ( good ones ) last longer. I use Z-2 Pro by Zaino.

I have tried Blue Coral Sealant, AM Awesome Gloss, Blue Poly, Turtle Wax Poly, Westley's Car Polish, Auto Fom, TR-3 Resin Glaze, Eagle One Visual Perfection and many others, with varied results.
Doug

correction is the only way to repair really serious paint defects
not even glare can fill massively big scratches

whilst I am a fan of filling albeit with glare mostly, correction with just one or two products, brings back the original clarity, depth of reflection, metal flake pop and colour richness

filling with a sealant cannot compare but following all the steps of glare, especially on a stinking hot summers day will get fairly close and stay that way

the new polishes available today are lightyears ahead of those used decades ago and do not mark the paint. poor technique, dirty or clogged buffing pads, a wobbly rotary buffing shaft or backing plate and dry buffing will put swirls on your paint

rotaries and polishes dont cause swirls - poor washing and a crappy detailer does that.

I'd like to see you try and get any motorists serious swirl marks, deep scratches, oxidation and holograms totally filled in with just your acrylic sealant

again they have their place and do fill well (the eurochem toughseal stuff does) but correction is the best