4 reasons why Bud"s article is wrong about Dawn

First, who wrote this article:Kim Wilson is a subcontract business manager for US Chemical & Plastics, Massillon,. Maybe he is being paid to write this article for the Car Wash industry? No bias here I'm sure.

Second:Using dish detergent on an automobile actually increases the likelihood of water spots.

Response: This is pure bull. Yea, it will leave spots if you do not use a towel
and dry it, but most people are smart enough to do this.

Third: Dishwash detergents are generally made with surfactants that are very good at grease cutting and removal. These surfactants are likely to strip the silicones and waxes on a vehicle.

Response: If Dishwash detergents strip silicones and waxes,then why would anyone assume that they protect your paint? If you have to use a weak soap to prevent stripping, then are you really removing harmful dirt and others things
from the surface that cause the damage? Think about it?

Fourthroblem #6: Additives

Dishwash: Dishwash detergents do not have special additives.

Carwash: Some carwash detergents have extra benefits due to special additives not found in dishwashing detergents. For example, a small amount of high pH additive that helps with dirt and road film removal and to neutraliy acid rain spots on the vehicle.

Response: WHAT! For example, a small amount of high pH additive that helps with dirt and road film removal and to neutraliy acid rain spots. A pH additive helps
remove dirt and road film. In your dreams maybe.

Bud, when are you going to post the ingredients for car soap?

Bill you consider to show your arrogance and ignorance by challenging the authority of a chemist who has worked in the retail and detail cleaning products industry for more than 40 years.

A man who is respected among his peers and who has developed for other companies numerous products on the market today.

His company does not sell products to the end-user or detailer, they are a very, very large private label chemical company.

Would not surprise me if his company did not make AT5 for GEM as I believe GEM does not make their own chemicals.

This article was written in 2002 at the request of the magazine because of the controversy over using dishwashing detergent by detailers.

If you wish to continue to rant and rave that is your choice, but do not question the knowledge and integrity of a person whom you do not know, that is ignorant.

Regards

Bud

Where does it say that this man is a chemist? You assume that,but it is not stated.A subcontract business manger is not a chemist. You are right, GEM does not make At-5, Euro Chem does. <br>

but do not question the knowledge and integrity of a person whom you do not know, that is ignorant. Bud, this statement shows clearly that you are the one that is ignorant. Why, because I question what you sayon't Use Dawn to Wash Cars..<br>


You present an article to support this point. I have not questioned this mans
knowledge or integrity, but what he says in the article. You question everything
I post. I feel you are wrong to imply that using Dawn will hurt clear coats, and that hand washing your car should be avoided. <br>

You come off as this big expert, and when you post comments like this, I will
call in question what you say.

Reviewing Bill's comments about his article Mr Wilson sent me this email to post for Bill and anyone else who cares to have a chemical discussion with him:

"Terrific! He (Bill) obviously thinks that I am a sales person with an agenda. I welcome a chemical debate.

To clarify one point, at the time I was asked to write that article for Professional Carwashing & Detailing magazine because of many years in product development, I was business development manager for two years.

Bill needs to know that I am actually a Research & Development chemist with 12 years experience formulating and testing household cleaners (including dishwashing detergents like Dawn). And I have 27 years experience formulating and testing car wash and detailing products. I am familiar with all raw materials used in these products. Why they are used and what their effect when used will be on both the surface used and the environment, as well.

My company is a large manufacturer of automotive paint and chemicals and employs me because not only do I know paint, but am extensively experienced in the development and testing of products used to clean, repair and protect paint.

Any of Bill's questions, his concerns and his comments are welcomed, whatever they might be.

It is people like him and the backward thinking that hinders progress and future succes of the detailing business.

Respectfully,

Kim Wilson"

BILL IF YOU HAVE ANY COMMENTS OR QUESTIONS PLEASE POST THEM AND I WILL PASS ON TO MR WILSON. OR YOU CAN EMAIL DIRECTLY AND I WILL GIVE YOU HIS EMAIL ADDRESS AND YOU CAN CONTACT HIM DIRECTLY.

BUD ABRAHAM

Dear Mr Wilson

I made a point to post my comments about your article for the reason to illustrate a point on so called experts ( Bud in particular) when they question the points I make on this forum.Many times Bud has offered his opinion as fact with no basis of fact to support it.<br>

In your article you did not mention your experience as a chemist.Although,I disagree with the premise of the article.No doubt, you have a vast amount of experience with the standard waxes, poly sealants, and car soaps on the market today. Clearly,as a chemist you know exactly what is in them. <br>

Your comment about me being backward thinking and hindering the success of the detailing industry makes me question your logic and motive,Clearly, you should
open your eyes before you make a statement like that. <br>

Car paints have clearly changed, but your company and others still use the same
wax that has been around since the 40's.I make the point that wax offers
no true protection. It offers no protection from the sun,or anything else.
It basically sticks to the surface, and offers short term shine and beading.<br>

I choose to use a product that actually protects your paint. I have been using
it since 1993, and Dawn will not strip it or leave water spots.I am here on
this forum to offer another opinion on detailing besides the party line from the
major companies that pay your salary. <br>


I see the detailing business going the wrong way. Companies push the next new
wonder product.Remember Touchless and Color Magic. They were created by chemists,
but these were nothing but scams.<br>


Your industry provides products that confuse the public. They sell wax which you cannot wash with a harsh soap because it will as you say in your article: Dishwash detergents are generally made with surfactants that are very good at grease cutting and removal. These surfactants are likely to strip the silicones and waxes on a vehicle. This leads to fine scratches and swirl marks.<br>


Although, there are many products and individuals to solve that problem. Today,
most detailers do correction on every vehicle at a very expensive prices,and follow it up with another coat of wax to keep the cycle going.<br>


I have done hundreds of vehicles with the product I use.They never require correction after a year and I suggest to use Dawn to wash their vehicles.
They are totally protected and provide a great shine. <br>


I am not the one selling the idea that wax offers protection.I would love for
you to explain how shine and beading is considered protection. Will wax stop
tree sap from leaving a dark spot on the clear coat ? No way. <br>


Your job is to make and sell products for profit. I am here to inform people
how to truly protect their paint for a fair price. <br>


Bill Daley

REPLY TO BILL DALEY FROM Kim Wilson:

"Bill please understand that I am not involved in the marketing of chemicals to the detail industry.
I have no agenda.
I advertise no products and I promote no products.
I have developed and tested products for nearly 3 decades for others who sell and market the products as they choose.
Some of the marketing tactics I disagree with as vehemently as others and possibly you.
My job is to make products that are the very best at performing the function the customer requested of us.
That's it.
Just formulate the best chemicals possible.
My job also involved informing the uninformed who wished to learn about real products and real performance.
If shine was the requirement, I developed a product that had the best shine.
If protection was the criteria, I developed the best I could.
All tested and confirmed with independent laboratory testing.
No exotic claims that could not be proven in a scientific laboratory as well as actual use.


During the two years I was a Business Manager I missed the development work in the laboratory and quickly returned to that function.

Missed the interchange with detailers and paint techs offering them my years of experience with paints, cleaners and compounds, polishes and waxes/sealants.

NEVER have I claimed that shine and water beading represented protection.
Quite the contrary, shine and water beading only signify that something is on the painted surface of the vehicle that is causing the water to bead.
Shine and beading can be accomplished with something as simple as cooking oil which offers little protection.

Contrary to your belief, WAX does offer some protection.

Other things are needed for a top quality product, however. But again WAX does offer protection.

WAX products have other things in them other than wax.

I challenge you that your product protects against the sun.

Many, many claims are made about UV protection.

They are nothing but marketing claims to help sell the product, I can tell you from a chemist's point of view and knowledge of the ingredients in the products.

Paint sealants, polishes, waxes, etc, etc do not MEASURABLY add to protection against the sun's UV rays.

You cannot put enough UV absorber into these products which are applied in such a thin coat to add to the UV protection that is already in the paint itself.

Believe me, I have tried to do this and failed.

We make paint.

The only way to protect paint from UV degredation is in the paint formula itself.

Marketing people like to use the statement "our product HELPS to protect against UV."

It might be true, that is, anything helps a little, but in this case, very, very poorly. It can't even be measured. It is nothing but marketing fluff.

I do not condone claims that cannot be proven to be true whether it is the product you are hawking, products I have formulated or anyone else's product.

As a long time chemist in this industry my goal has always been to inform detailers and car wash people about chemicals as much as possible so that they can make informed decisions about what they were purchasing and why they purchased the products.

Never have promoted a specific product in any of my informational discussions, articles or any presentations I have made on detailing.

I have tested literally hundreds of products from all over the world so that I could offer results to the industry because they need to know, and because it helped me to develop better products than what was available on the market.

No agenda, just here to offer chemical advise and assistance in an effort to promote the continued progress and success of the detailing industry.

Any questions, comments or chemical concerns feel free to ask.

Regards
Kim Wilson

Dear Mr Wilson

You cannot put enough UV absorber into these products which are applied in such a thin coat to add to the UV protection that is already in the paint itself.

Believe me, I have tried to do this and failed.

Well maybe you have not tried hard enough. The acrylic sealant I use will provide
UV protection. It has been around since the late 80's. <br>

I agree that only so much UV absorber can go into the clear coat, and a cheaper
acrylic urethane is normally used.Although, the acrylic sealant I use will bond
with the clear coat and seal the micro pores of the paint. It offers excellent
protection from the sun and seals the paint. <br>

I live in Naples, Fl and you cannot find a more harsh place as far as extreme temps and humidity. I have tested this product on many cars, and I know it works.
<br>

The only way to protect paint from UV degredation is in the paint formula itself. Given the products you are aware of for protection. You are correct in this statement.<br>

You admit that today's protection products offer little protection from the sun
and other things. My question to you is why do they continue to sell and promote
the same waxes used since the 40's. They put a fancy name on it and call it
the World's Best Wax and sell it for $33.00 an ounce. The industry confuses the
public with the many products it introduces every year under a new name which are
are no different.<br>

I have used this product since 1993. I bet there are not very many detailers
that can say they have only used one product for 17 years. What this tells
me is that there is no brand loyalty to any product or brand. If it is easy to
apply and looks good is what passes as a good product these days. <br>


You ask the public what a detailer is and you will get a million different responses. Everyone these days is a detailer.There are tons of people who
will slap a coat of wax on your car or repair swirl marks caused by another detailer. Although, no one tells you how to protect your paint. I speak to offer
my many years of experience, and a way I have found that truly works. Of course,
I am attacked and banned from detailing web forums. <br.


The industry has convinced the public and detailers that these recycled products
are what pass for protection. Sadly to say, it is what you and others say that
continue that myth that there is no way to truly protect your paint. <br>


Bill Daley

Bill

I cannot speak for why other companies market their waxes and sealants the way they do.

But, I think you already know the probable answer anyway, THEY DO IT TO MAKE MONEY.

Again, I personally do not condone this.

But, I can assure you one thing, your product (AT5) does not protect against UV from the sun to any measurable degree.

You may think it does, but it does not. I would base on over 30 years as a chemist on this statement.

It is very easy to test.

Just use a device to measure UV and measure underneath a clear glass.

Apply your AT5 and re-measure under the glass.

Unless your coating has darkened the glass, or added color in some way, the UV will essentially remain the same.

I have a condo in Napes and am very familiar with the strong UV there.

In fact, many of my tests were run in that area.

As a matter of fact, there is a panel testing outdoor facility nearby in the Everglades that I have utilized to test products in actual outdoor exposure.

Bill, what documented test results can you provide to substantiate your belief about your product. All you have provided is nothing but opinion and rethoric.

Bottomline, Bill is that if you like the product (AT5) you are using, pleased with the shine and protection that you are getting, and the price you are paying, KEEP USING IT.

However, do not challenge what others suggest unless you have documented test results to prove your statements.

I can only offer chemical knowledge from my years of experience in formulating and testing.

I am not capable of convincing others to change their ways and/or their beliefs.

If I was I would be in marketing and sales.

I only offer chemical facts as tested and proven.

If you have the answers and don't need help then I would think you are wasting your time on detail forums.

Regards
Kim Wilson

thanks for that info Kim
The products I custom blend once applied to a cars paint and which thicken the paint, never oxidise one bit
this may be due to it adding microns of what I can only call - synthetic clearcoat
contains titanium oxide and natural silicate

I really wish that chemical manufacturers would start using more natural ingredients and superior quality stuff in their products
Is there anything on earth that is a better protector than silicone, whether natural or man made?

There is no way that Dawn will ever get used on any of my customers paint
Its not good for it at any time.
Understand where bill is coming from, perhaps its just your approach that gets you banned from forums
I have been banned before - no big deal.

And by the way, Australia is more brutal to car paint than florida

Svr 73

What do you wash your cars with ? Why would you not use Dawn?

Kim

I disagree with what you say about AT-5.You have not tested this product, so how
can you make your assumption? Once again , here is my problem with Bud and yourself.
It is only your opinion! The very thing you say about me:All you have provided is nothing but opinion and rethoric.

You are very welcome to contact Gem Industries, and they will provide you with the
info you need. I provided this to Bud, but he has not bothered to check it out.
Contact Rich at 1-800-6-DETAIL and I am sure he can answer any questions you have.
Mention my name Bill Daley, and he will confirm my years of experience with this
product.

This is the company I worked with that now sells it to American Airlines.
They have done many tests:[www.logisticlean.com].
They took the AT-5 formula and improved it.


In fact, the owner of logisticlean told me it was not possible to get a reduction of fuel burn from a sealant when he first called me.I told him my experience from a Gulfsream 2 showed at least 1 percent. You can see from his tests I was right.


Gem told the owner to contact me about this product because of my experience with it.Not a chemist, but someone who had first hand experience using the product.

When you say:You may think it does, but it does not. I would base on over 30 years as a chemist on this statement. That is a very close minded statement
when you have not tested this product.You are completely ignoring my 17 years
using this product as useless.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/15/2010 03:08PM by billd55.

SVR73

Thanks for your post. Not sure if you were referring to me or to Bill about being banned. I am sure it was Bill, because I have never been banned from any detail forum, I choose not to participate mainly because of people like Bill who are so uninformed and don't know it that trying to provide them knowledge is like pouring water into a bucket with no bottom.

You are certainly correct about the Australia climate being more harsh on vehicles than Florida. It is brutal there when it comes to paint protection.

Agree that we would all like to see more natural ingredients used in detail products. In fact, the industry has taken some steps in that direction, but has a long way to go.

There are just too many good synthetic materials made such as silicones that do an excellent job of protection. And, silicones are really very safe.

You mention, "Titanium Oxide."

What you mean is "Titanimu Dioxide" and that is just a natural white pigment. It is used to color paints.

Not certain why you would want to have it in your paint sealant except for color adjustment.

Also, "Natural Silicate" could be a number of things, but not something that will provide paint protection benefit.

There are all kinds of silicates, but none that I would particularly want in a paint sealant.

It is clear that Bill did not get the message about DAWN dishwashing detergent.

It will not hurt the paint, but it will strip off the silicones and waxes that are already on the paint.

If that is what you want then DAWN would be ok to use, I suppose.

Bill, not being a chemist, is bold enough to think that there are no differences in the surfactants used in DAWN and car wash products, which of course there are.

That said, I am sure he would have no issue with washing his hair in DAWN or bathing his children in it. After all, for Bill, soap is soap....right?

Thanks for the post and I hope that all formulators will try and use more natural raw materials in their products, I am all for that.

Kim Wilson

SVR73

Thanks for your post. Not sure if you were referring to me or to Bill about being banned. I am sure it was Bill, because I have never been banned from any detail forum, I choose not to participate mainly because of people like Bill who are so uninformed and don't know it that trying to provide them knowledge is like pouring water into a bucket with no bottom.

You are certainly correct about the Australia climate being more harsh on vehicles than Florida. It is brutal there when it comes to paint protection.

Agree that we would all like to see more natural ingredients used in detail products. In fact, the industry has taken some steps in that direction, but has a long way to go.

There are just too many good synthetic materials made such as silicones that do an excellent job of protection. And, silicones are really very safe.

You mention, "Titanium Oxide."

What you mean is "Titanimu Dioxide" and that is just a natural white pigment. It is used to color paints.

Not certain why you would want to have it in your paint sealant except for color adjustment.

Also, "Natural Silicate" could be a number of things, but not something that will provide paint protection benefit.

There are all kinds of silicates, but none that I would particularly want in a paint sealant.

It is clear that Bill did not get the message about DAWN dishwashing detergent.

It will not hurt the paint, but it will strip off the silicones and waxes that are already on the paint.

If that is what you want then DAWN would be ok to use, I suppose.

Bill, not being a chemist, is bold enough to think that there are no differences in the surfactants used in DAWN and car wash products, which of course there are.

That said, I am sure he would have no issue with washing his hair in DAWN or bathing his children in it. After all, for Bill, soap is soap....right?

Thanks for the post and I hope that all formulators will try and use more natural raw materials in their products, I am all for that.

Kim Wilson

Kim
Did you bother to check the website out I posted? Did you bother to contact Rich
at Gem?<br>

I guess not? You asked for tests from a chemist, and here it is. Please tell me your opinion? <br>

I choose not to participate mainly because of people like Bill who are so uninformed and don't know it that trying to provide them knowledge is like pouring water into a bucket with no bottom. <br>

That said, I am sure he would have no issue with washing his hair in DAWN or bathing his children in it. After all, for Bill, soap is soap....right?<br>

Are you a MORAN? When did I ever say this, and please stop putting words in my mouth or assume things for me. <br>

It will not hurt the paint, but it will strip off the silicones and waxes that are already on the paint.<br>

If that is what you want then DAWN would be ok to use, I suppose.<br>

Bill, not being a chemist, is bold enough to think that there are no differences in the surfactants used in DAWN and car wash products, which of course there are.<br>


What is your point? Are you the only chemist in the US, and your opinion is dogma.
I offer scientific proof and you ignore it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/2010 02:19AM by billd55.

Kim

It is clear you have no interest to respond on the website I showed here
as proof from your posts to svr 73. Insults are all you seem to offer as
a response. <br>

Hopefully, we can now end this debate unless you or Bud care to share why the
tests used by Logisticlean are wrong. Otherwise, I would appreciate if you
would stop referring to me in insulting ways when making posts to other members.

Bill

I am a Wilson, Moran is an Irish family name.

It is you I am sure that are the "moron."

Regards
Kim

Kim

Do you wish to comment on the tests, or sling insults. You were the one that asked for proof, so here it is. You state about me:All you have provided is nothing but opinion and rethoric. <br>

I call you a moron because of the comments you made.A person with your education
and experience clearly should have more class than to make comments like those.
Bud, was the one who brought you into this debate. You were the one that decided
to offer your two cents on the matter, and now you get called on the carpet with
actual facts and tests and you are silient,

You started this debate by saying this:It is people like him and the backward thinking that hinders progress and future succes of the detailing business.
To my best knowledge, I only stated that nothing was mentioned about you being a chemist, and this article gave no good reason why not to wash your car with Dawn.<br>


If you choose not comment on these tests from this website, then I will consider
anything you or Bud say are only opinion or rethoric

Bill

It is fruitless to communicate with you. It is clear you do not understand anything that has been presented to you. That is what is called close-minded.

What you offer is not proof, these tests are only statements of what was done and what the conclusions were.

In order for a test to have validity you must present the protocols that were followed and how the tests were conducted and the results.

Let's drop the conversation as there is no purpose. Reading all the prior posts that you were involved in shows that you do not accept anything anyone says that does not agree with your position.

If you like AT5 great use it, but let others decide for themselves.

Probably the most accurate statement recently made were those of Ron Ketcham, if this product is so revolutionary then companies far larger than GEM would have copied it and marketed their own version.

As well, detailers all over the country would be using it.

The reality is that this product has been around for years, probably longer than you have been in the business and it is no better or no worse than any other.

It seems that detailers before you were not convinced and most are not convinced today.

All the best
Kim

PS I see you have learned to spell "moron."

Kim
That is a bunch of bull, and you know it.You present points and ask me to accept
those as facts because of your 30 years of experience.<br>

Really, I do not have a clue what you have presented here, but your 30 years of experience and insults.It is people like Bud, yourself, and Ron who still believe
the myth that outdated products are relevant on today's paint finishes.<br>

What truly amazes me about you three are that you have not used this product,
but you continue to make this statement:it is no better or no worse than any other.
Wow, that is what passes for experience these days.<br>

I totally agree we should end this now, but not with insult on my part.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/2010 09:02PM by billd55.

Bill

You should do some philosophical reading to broaden your outlook.

Buhhda the great Asian religious leader once said:

"An insult is like a gift, you have the option of accepting it or not."

It is only an insult if you take it as one.

Regards
Bud Abraham

Bud

I agree with that premise completely.Thank You.