Is buffing the only solution to swirl marks?

Bud mentioned in a email ,Jim Farrel ,the inventor of the BUFFPRO. He lives in Naples, Fl were I live also.

Farrell Polishing Products was created as a result of Jim Farrell’s quest to find a better way to polish cars. As a small business owner of an auto detailing company in Naples, Florida, Farrell became repeatedly frustrated with the poor buffing tools on the market. While many of the existing products promised to eliminate unsightly swirl marks and restore shine to motor vehicles, those products in reality only filled in and covered up swirl marks. After a few washes, the original swirl marks were revealed.

Farrell decided that he would no longer use buffing tools until he could find a product that actually worked. He began buffing by hand, but found that process to be tedious and inefficient, especially for large vehicles and boats.

With a little ingenuity and a big passion for creating that perfect product, Jim Farrell created a prototype of a buffing power tool. He spent months and months tinkering and experimenting with various tool parts until he created a buffing and polishing product that worked beautifully.
I to have a big passion for solving the same problem, but my solution is different
than his. I am not going to bad mouth his polisher. In fact I feel it has many benefits
over other polishers.The big one is that it keeps the buffing pad flat on the surface.
Also, on big areas like the side of a RV I can see a benefit.

While many of the existing products promised to eliminate unsightly swirl marks and restore shine to motor vehicles, those products in reality only filled in and covered up swirl marks.I completely agree with his statement.

Although, the problem as I see it is that buffing is seen as the only solution. Why
are polishers needed?
1 Restore shine
2.Remove swirl marks , fine scratches, and holograms.
3.Level paint
4.Clean the surface of dirt , water spots, and grime which is embedded
5.Correct imperfections in the clear from scratches, and acid rain

Am I saying that polishing is not needed. No. For example, I have to buff every boat I do that is in salt water even with AT-5 applied to it.

There are two ways to approach taking care of a clear coat finish. You can leave it alone and just wash it. Or you can apply wax, wax/polymer product,or use a product like Blackfire Wet Diamond sealant and then apply wax over it.

TOWGT in his posts mentions these products. He has stated several times that
wax offers no UV protection from the sun. A candle is made of wax and melts
from the heat of the fire. I remember when they said not to use too much furniture polish because you would get wax build up which would dull the shine on your furniture.

Jim Farrell has a passion for detailing.He stopped using existing polishing methods
because he did not want to produce crap work.In Naples, Fl we have more detailers than in most cities, and if you produce shoddy work your phone goes dead
fast.

Jim makes this statement:After a few washes, the original swirl marks were revealed.
Why after a few washes did the swirls come back?Was it the buffing? No, it was from the so called protection products used.

This why I have a problem with guys that do correction. Go up on the Truth in
Detail Forum and you will find many posts showing before and after pics. They
do appear impressive, but as Jim's says : After a few washes, the original swirl marks were revealed.

Many people who are in this profession are only concerned with making money .They are not like Jim who saw a problem and decided not to do what everyone else continues to do this day.I consider him a true professional.

Although his buffer is only half the solution IMO. Buffing wears down the clear coat
by way of friction, heat, compound, and polishes. So called protection products are the cause. Cars do not generally come from the factory with swirl marks, so
where do they come from? That is a matter of debate which many continue to stick their head in the sand and ignore for whatever reason.It is the usually blamed on improper washing or bad polishing procedures. Either way the products are the
reason because they are inferior for the job.

I believe AT-5 is a better product that truly produces a great shine, but also superior
protection without swirls.Like Jim I am trying to show the other part needed
to eliminate swirl marks by way of protecting the clear coat before buffing is needed.

Facts are fact. The products are what they are. If what you consider quality work is
something that looks good long enough to get paid, then you do not have a passion
for this business. Jim spent two an half years working on his polisher. That is passion
IMO.

Bill, respectfully I don't understand your perspective on this.

I use Flex polishers, a range of pads and polishes and deliver a swirl-free finish. I use IPA to cleanse the paint of any residual oils from the polish and if I spot any swirls, I finish it down again. The swirls don't come back when I apply sealant or nano-coating or even carnauba wax. I use all three in my workshop and am aware of the differences in protection etc.

I don't feel that my polishers are sub-standard and I've been using them for years to give the finish that I have a great reputation for, so I wouldn't feel the need to dump them for a new style of polisher to get the same result.

I don't understand how you think products cause swirls. Can you explain how this happens? It is a chemical that is applied to paint. It sits there. Do you think it reacts or has a physical effect on the surface? Or do you mean the application of products causes the swirls. Just looking for you perspective on it as you are quite headstrong about it.

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billd55
Farrell became repeatedly frustrated with the poor buffing tools on the market. While many of the existing products promised to eliminate unsightly swirl marks and restore shine to motor vehicles, those products in reality only filled in and covered up swirl marks. After a few washes, the original swirl marks were revealed.

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billd55
Jim makes this statement:After a few washes, the original swirl marks were revealed.

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billd55
Why after a few washes did the swirls come back?Was it the buffing? No, it was from the so called protection products used.

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billd55
Farrell decided that he would no longer use buffing tools until he could find a product that actually worked.

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billd55
Jim Farrell has a passion for detailing. He stopped using existing polishing methods because he did not want to produce crap work.

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billd55
While many of the existing products promised to eliminate unsightly swirl marks and restore shine to motor vehicles, those products in reality only filled in and covered up swirl marks.I completely agree with his statement.

Boy O boy….where do I begin? All these statements reek of both improper polishing technique & poor product selection, not to mention an unrealistic self-reliant fascination to paint sealants. I always get a kick out of the people that hold this product/process so dear to their heart that it clouds the true reality of car care. If you properly correct a finish, defects will not return unless they are reinstalled back into the finish from some sort of frictional process. I can assure you that on both my own personal vehicles as well as the several that I exclusively maintain, defects do not return like mentioned above. I take great care in my craft and focus on producing top notch results that are guaranteed. I go to great measures to ensure that before a protection product (wax/sealant/coating) is applied, there are no defects being concealed. I know dozens of other people that echo this workflow and will attest that swirls can be permanently polished from a finish.

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billd55
Am I saying that polishing is not needed. No. For example, I have to buff every boat I do that is in salt water even with AT-5 applied to it.

Why is buffing needed on this boat? If the product is still on the finish (assuming so) is the surface becoming re-oxidized and requiring the need for additional buffing?

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billd55
There are two ways to approach taking care of a clear coat finish. You can leave it alone and just wash it. Or you can apply wax, wax/polymer product,or use a product like Blackfire Wet Diamond sealant and then apply wax over it.

You can apply what ever product you choose, but it doesn’t make the surface prone to micro marring/scratches from improper maintenance methods. Every time you touch your paint there are microscopic scratches being created on the surface. If you use proper washing techniques, the requirement for repolishing can be prolonged greatly. Many vehicles I care for might only need light polishing yearly because they are cared for properly. On the other hand, even though I try educating clients on caring for their vehicle, I still have some that use more mainstream methods for washing and they require much greater attention more frequently. They are coached on potential hazards with repeated neglect, but at the end of the day I do my best to cater to their needs as realistically as possible.

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billd55
In Naples, Fl we have more detailers than in most cities, and if you produce shoddy work your phone goes dead fast.

Being also from South Florida (east), I can also say that 99% of the “Detailers” in the entire state don’t have any more of a clue to the characteristics of what a well preserved vehicle looks like any more than the car owners they serve. It’s like the blind leading the blind actually. Even most owners that show off their vehicles in well renowned car shows think that even their swirled up paint finishes are the SOP of owning a show car. Getting through to these bubble heads to discuss how their car could look completely different with a proper polishing job is like talking to a rock.

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billd55
This why I have a problem with guys that do correction. Go up on the Truth in Detail Forum and you will find many posts showing before and after pics. They
do appear impressive, but as Jim's says : After a few washes, the original swirl marks were revealed.

Unless Jim or you have personally inspected these vehicles, how can you comment that this is the case? Playing devils advocate only rings through as not having an understanding of what can be accomplished through the use of adequate products and techniques. Again, if swirls appear after washing, it’s the fault of improper buffing and/or washing methods coupled with inferior products.

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billd55
So called protection products are the cause. Cars do not generally come from the factory with swirl marks, so where do they come from? That is a matter of debate which many continue to stick their head in the sand and ignore for whatever reason.It is the usually blamed on improper washing or bad polishing procedures. Either way the products are the reason because they are inferior for the job.

Actually, there’s a decent likelihood of cars being exposed to damage not only while new at the dealer, but way before the vehicle gets delivered to them. They are constantly being spot sanded/buffed/filled as well as wiped down and washed just moments after being final assembled. Having been raised in the Metro Detroit area and touring multiple plants there I’ve seen what can and is being done.

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billd55
I believe AT-5 is a better product that truly produces a great shine, but also superior protection without swirls.

What do you mean by “without swirls” and what products have you compared it to for making that assessment?

Profile Detailer

First,you say:I apply sealant or nano-coating or even carnauba wax. I use all three in my workshop and am aware of the differences in protection etc.

My question to you is do you really know, or think you know?Did you know that wax is considered a sealant. As far as nano-coating do you mean a product like this:/www.carpages.co.uk/news/paint-protection-19-11-05.asp?switched=on&echo=968183180.If so, this company makes AT-5.A product I have used since 1993.

These two are completely different. Wax offers zero UV protection. Whether you believe it or not.It does not. You make this statement:It is a chemical that is applied to paint. It sits there. You are right, and that is the problem.

Have you asked yourself why they say not to use harsh soaps for cars that have wax on them?Because it strips the wax which is one reason for swirl marks.Also waxes and glazes cover swirl marks. I am sure the cars you do look great when you are finished, but when your customers go down to the local car wash a couple of times those swirl come right back if wax is applied.

It really amazes me why correction detailers cannot see this.You use the word
"protection", and you do not have a clue what it means.I could put motor oil on a finish and say it is protected.Hey, it just sits there, so is that protection?
Of course not.

Inferior products are the problem. Almost all so called sealants contain wax.
Boat manufactures use wax so there boat parts will release from the mold.
The big thing now is to apply a sacrificial layer of wax over sealants like
Blackfire Wet Diamond to increase the shine. Basically, all wax does is produce a shine and cover the paint, not protect it.

You mention Nano coat, now I am not sure what product you use, but this what I consider protection. Acrylic urea thanes paints are what most clear coats are.
Svr73 talks about his products which actually repair the surface by bonding a new layer on. That is cool if it works and does not cost a fortune.

Because these paints are not 100 % sealed things can work into the paint which can create a need for polishing to restore the shine.Now to answer your question.
Why use wax if you know it will cause swirl marks.The shine part of the clear is only about the thickness of a human hair at best.

If you wet sand, use polish or compound along with heat and friction from your pads buffer marks will happen. then you apply wax and the car looks great until
several harsh washing and your buffer marks come back.The customer is mad, so hopefully he comes back, so what do you do then? You or some other detailer
do it all over.

He is what I do on most vehicles. I wash the car with Dawn. use a clay bar, and apply a coat of AT-5. I know the clear is protected from the sun, and all bad things you can mention. They can go thru a carwash or hand wash with Dawn and
NO swirls. Tested on many vehicles, so I know it works. Here is on for example:

[www.youtube.com]

David

The reason why I have to buff all my boats is because of the salt water and sun.
Most boats do not get washed,so after six months or more it is required.

You make this statement:Many vehicles I care for might only need light polishing yearly because they are cared for properly. On the other hand, even though I try educating clients on caring for their vehicle, I still have some that use more mainstream methods for washing and they require much greater attention more frequently. They are coached on potential hazards with repeated neglect, but at the end of the day I do my best to cater to their needs as realistically as possible.

My clients do not need to be educated except to just wash their car. They never require correction, and only one application of the product per year.


You are talking in circles.I have been detailing cars for many years. Where
do you think swirl marks come from? Outer Space. Every detailer says I'm not the
one who causes the problem and uses this excuse:Again, if swirls appear after washing, it’s the fault of improper buffing and/or washing methods coupled with inferior products.


If you are using wax,or wax with a polymer. Correction will be needed and buffer
marks will happen. When your customers use harsh soap swirl marks will happen.

You make this statement:I go to great measures to ensure that before a protection product (wax/sealant/coating) is applied,

How are you protecting their paint with wax? Wax offers ZERO UV protection.
It certainly offers no protection against the need for polishing. Does it protect against tap sap dark spots, or say some kid eggs their car.How about salt, or bugs? How about water from a well that sprays on it. Definitely not.

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billd55
I believe AT-5 is a better product that truly produces a great shine, but also superior protection without swirls.


What do you mean by “without swirls” and what products have you compared it to for making that assessment?

Exactly what it means. I do not need to correct my work because I know what cannot be repaired (deep scratches for example). At-5 does not require baby shampoo for washing to avoid swirls,and avoiding buffing prevents buffer marks.
The shine is equal to any wax, and last much longer.I have not found one product since 1993 that comes close to this product, or I would use it,

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billd55
David

The reason why I have to buff all my boats is because of the salt water and sun.
Most boats do not get washed,so after six months or more it is required.

If AT-5 is that good and last up to 5 years as GEM claims, it should be sealing the finish better, protecting it from oxidizing and the elements. You claiming your product blocks UV and salt is obviously false.

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billd55
You make this statement:Many vehicles I care for might only need light polishing yearly because they are cared for properly. On the other hand, even though I try educating clients on caring for their vehicle, I still have some that use more mainstream methods for washing and they require much greater attention more frequently. They are coached on potential hazards with repeated neglect, but at the end of the day I do my best to cater to their needs as realistically as possible.



My clients do not need to be educated except to just wash their car. They never require correction, and only one application of the product per year.

Mine too. But I teach them the proper way which is using the least evasive way possible. You on the other hand don’t. Case in point; your You-Tube video showing your client Morgan the painter’s green Expedition. That truck was a swirled up mess. Even though it was poor quality video, you could still easily pick up the swirls; which proves you don’t have a clue for backing up your claim of this thread. You swear up and down and talk about how great your AT-5 is, but that truck is a poor example depicting the product. I also couldn’t help not to laugh when you ooh’d and ahh’d about how reflective and nice the glass is. Not a difficult feat to accomplish on dark tinted glass and sorry to break the news, but your miracle acrylic sealant didn’t help one bit. Smoke N Mirror deceptive marketing at its best right there.

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billd55
My clients do not need to be educated except to just wash their car. They never require correction, and only one application of the product per year.

Educating your clients could be both a powerful and deadly tool at the same time. If they look anything like your friend’s truck, I’d say this thread adds some light: [web-cars.com]

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billd55
You are talking in circles.I have been detailing cars for many years. Where
do you think swirl marks come from? Outer Space. Every detailer says I'm not the
one who causes the problem and uses this excuse:Again, if swirls appear after washing, it’s the fault of improper buffing and/or washing methods coupled with inferior products.

Lots of people (especially the Hacks in Florida) claim to have detailed for tons of years. That doesn’t make them knowledgeable about proper paint care. Car wash swirls come from improper washing (like your friend’s Expedition); but buffer swirls are created by using an abrasive liquid and/or aggressive polishing pad and NOT USING THE PROPER FINISHING PRODUCTS AND TECHNIQUES TO REMOVE THEM!! Because you’ve been detailing so long I’d expect you to understand that, but guess not.

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billd55
If you are using wax,or wax with a polymer. Correction will be needed and buffer
marks will happen.

You are totally wrong. Wax/sealants don’t create a need for correction. If anything, many sealants/wax/coatings *can* create less wash enduced marring because during the pre-wash step (powerwashing in particular) it more effectively loosens and removes the soiling on the finish which ultimately creates less marring when touching the surface.

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billd55
When your customers use harsh soap swirl marks will happen.

Wrong again. Soap will not create swirl marks. I use nothing but Dawn and touchless washes on 1 of my own cars and can attest that this isn’t the case. Again, it’s when people don’t wash their cars correctly (*process*), not products.

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billd55
You make this statement:I go to great measures to ensure that before a protection product (wax/sealant/coating) is applied,

How are you protecting their paint with wax? Wax offers ZERO UV protection.
It certainly offers no protection against the need for polishing. Does it protect against tap sap dark spots, or say some kid eggs their car.How about salt, or bugs? How about water from a well that sprays on it. Definitely not.

Don’t take and twist my sentence out of context to discredit what I said. I said: “I go to great measures to ensure that before a protection product (wax/sealant/coating) is applied, there are no defects being concealed.”. A fresh coat of wax or sealant WILL protect against bugs and it allows them to be removed from the finish easier, creating less (or no) need for abrasive scrubbing like what may be needed on an unprotected surface. I never claimed that waxes/sealants offered UV protection, but I’d be willing to bet your product doesn’t either. I bet it won’t guard against an egg getting thrown against it either as it surely doesn’t protect against the swirling created during your friend’s well washing regiment.

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billd55
I believe AT-5 is a better product that truly produces a great shine, but also superior protection without swirls.


What do you mean by “without swirls” and what products have you compared it to for making that assessment?

Exactly what it means. I do not need to correct my work because I know what cannot be repaired (deep scratches for example). At-5 does not require baby shampoo for washing to avoid swirls,and avoiding buffing prevents buffer marks.
The shine is equal to any wax, and last much longer.I have not found one product since 1993 that comes close to this product, or I would use it,

You avoided my question. Again. What products have you compared your miracle product to??? And post a picture of the product to prove it.

I have an offer for you. Seeing that you are making all these claims about how great your product is. Why not come by Auto Geek’s Detail Fest this March 26th in Stuart, FL and show me your perfectly protected vehicle. I’d also be willing to accept a small sample of your miracle acrylic sealant and do some real world testing against my favorite protective products. If you can’t make it, no problem, set up a sample from your people @ JEM and I’d be happy to pick it up from them in person. Maybe they can supply me with their lab test results documenting their 5 year durability claim too.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/03/2011 03:27AM by Pro-Techt.

Wow Pro-Techt

I really do not Know how to respond to your last post.

It is clear you have no experience detailing boats.
If AT-5 is that good and last up to 5 years as GEM claims, it should be sealing the finish better, protecting it from oxidizing and the elements. You claiming your product blocks UV and salt is obviously false.

First, oxidation is not the reason for buffing. It is to remove the salt build up.
Without AT-5 the sun and salt would damage the gel coat and be much harder to remove the salt. Cars do not sit in salt water and direct sun light like boats.


I do not know what you consider a swirl up mess.We washed that SUV with well
water and Dawn to prove a point. Also, it had been several months since the last application. Please send me a video of one of your waxed cars that was washed
with Dawn and well water.

I’d also be willing to accept a small sample of your miracle acrylic sealant.set up a sample from your people @ JEM and I’d be happy to pick it up from them in person. Maybe they can supply me with their lab test results documenting their 5 year durability claim too. Gee, that is mighty big of you, anything else you would like.

To be honest with you I do not think you have the passion to use this product or promote it. Even if you had a sample it would sit on your self.If you are interested contact GEM yourself.

"Is buffing the only solution to swirl marks?"

It depends on how we define the terms 'swirl marks' and 'solution'

Swirl marks, by the common definition, are numerous scratches that are often microscopic in nature and are caused ANYTIME something abrades the paint in a random nature. However so people limit the term to marks caused by washing or marks caused by a machine polisher. So let's get rid of the term swirl marks and use the term marring, since it is more accurate.

Is buffing the only solution to marring?

Buffing (abrading the surface) is the only way to permanently remove swirl marks/marring, although we could argue the term buffing (is it machine, hand applied, etc). Swirl marks are just one type of marring, which would be like valleys in a mountain range. You really cannot remove marring, you remove the paint surrounding the marring to create a new, level surface. The only way to re-level paint is to abrade it using friction, which I believe would define the term buffing.

So yes, buffing (abrading the surface) is the only way to create a new level surface, short of re-spraying the panel and filling in the marring with a permanent solution like a new layer of clear coat.

That doesn't mean it is the only solution. There are products on the market (most polishes, waxes, glazes, sealants) that will fill the scratches and create an artificially mar/swirl mark free surface, but this effect will only last for as long as the product does, like make-up. While I prefer to permanently remove the swirl marks and use my ability to create a true, level surface that will reflect light perfectly I can understand why some people would prefer to use other means.

Now I have read other posts where you have attacked me, my forum, and have remained silent because you seem to confuse your experience with knowledge and you don't seem to fully grasp how incorrect you are. I'm not doubting your results, but rather your understanding of the results.

Here are a couple of points that you and I disagree about. I am going to quote your statements in generalized form instead of digging through the posts.

"Swirls are caused by buffing, not washing."

Perhaps your definition of the term swirl marks would be equal to the what I define as 'buffer swirls'. Swirl marks is a term that generally describes any marring that appears circular in nature. However, scratches that aren't circular will appear circular when when illuminated from a central light source. So perhaps we are using different terms, which is why I prefer the term marring.

Marring occurs when ever something scours the surface and removes a trace amount of material from the surface, creating a microscopic scratch. Washing with a stiff cotton towel and grinding paint into the surface will absolutely cause marring ( is absolutely deeper than the marring created by buffing the paint). Washing a dirty car with out frequently rinsing out the wash mitt is going to cause marring since the dirt will act like fine abrasives and scour the surface.

Washing the wheel of a car and loading the wash mitt up with metallic grains that are often sharper and larger than 3000 grit abrasives, then rubbing it across the paint is going to scour the finish (and cause marring). I am suprised to see that you don't condone proper methods (method that reduce the abrasive nature of removing concrete grit) to avoid abrading the surface.

Marring, whether it be a swirl pattern or not, is caused by abrasion. Proper washing methods reduce abrasion. Are you suggesting that if I protect my car with your product that I can grab any old wash mitt and wash my sand covered car, wheeles, and wheel wells with it, then grind it try with an old, brittle bath towel and not have inflicted any damage. If your answer is yes, this is what you are saying, then I would ask you what grit sandpaper is needed to remove your coating? Since bad washing techniques can cause damage that requires upwards of 2000 grit abrasion to remove, and you seem to be claiming "No matter how you wash your car you won't get swirl marks" I would assume the only way to remove your product would be to sand it off with a minimum of 1500 grit paper?

Or are you willing to concede that most people have really poor washing habits and fail to grasp just how abrasive sand (often 50 grit) sitting on the paint can be when scrubbed across it and that we should be careful in how remove dirt and grime to avoid causing scratches?

"If you are using wax,or wax with a polymer. Correction will be needed and buffer
marks will happen. When your customers use harsh soap swirl marks will happen."

When you say "buffer marks will happen" I am taken back. "Buffer marks" are caused by buffers, hence the name. If you are seeing marks that look like buffer pattern swirls that is a result of somebody who doesn't know how to polish paint correctly. IE 99% of the detailers in the word. I think this is why you and many people have such a strong difference of opinion on this subject is because many people don't agree with your statement.

"Buffer marks will happen" only if the paint has not been properly polished. Modern advances (particularly in the ability to make the abrasive grains used in the polishes SO SMALL and FINE) in polishing liquids have made it more than possible to create a surface that is TRULY swirl free.

I believe this is where your experience has actually hampered you. You seem to be very defensive and resort to your 'experience' but sometimes too much of something can prevent us from learning more.

It used to be, in the old days, that it was very difficult to produce a true "buffer" swirl free finish. The paint's were softer and the manufacturing of fine abrasives left a lot to be desired. In general the paint's were buffed to as close to perfect as possible, then covered with a glaze or wax to make them look perfect. When the glaze or wax wore off the "buffer swirls would return".

The problem is that a lot of detailers from your genre/era have been doing it "their way" for so long that they haven't kept up on modern advances and fully grasp how scientific paint care has become. This is NOT a knock at you, this is a common occurence in many industries.

Take the computer programmer how graduated with a Bachelor's Degree 17 years ago. Let's say he graduated, worked for 5 years, then decided he knew everything and wasn't going to keep up any more. So his knowledge base is 12 years old. Now unlock him from his stupor and put him to work today. Technology has advanced so quickly that he would be lost. He would have no concept of viral marketing, no concept of sites like youtube, facebook, and twitter. So all of his experience and years of doing it his way would actually be a hindrance.

C.L. Lewis said that "Experience is the Mother of Illusion".

So the "buffer" swirl marks will only reappear if they weren't polished properly and removed permanently. However, even with today's modern polishes and tools, polishing paint remains an art form that requires some level of talent to do the highest level. This is why the top pro's are paid big money compared to the other, less talented detailers. Because not everybody can do it. It's okay, not matter how hard I try I will never play in the NBA.

However paint that has been polished to the highest level will never have buffer swirls reappear because they aren't there! I have clients whose cars I have not polished once in the last 3 years, and are still swirl free. Why? Because all of the scratches were removed and the paint was polished to a swirl free finish. As long as NEW marring and scratches aren't introduced to the paint, it will remain swirl free.

Unfortunately creating a truly swirl free finish (one that doesn't have hidden buffer swirl reappearing) takes a long time. Usually 2 days, some times more (some times less) and it takes knowledge, and it takes talent. Unfortunately there are a lot of detailers out there who have been doing this for a long time and still don't understand what causes swirl marks and the proper way of polishing paint.

Now keep in mind that I am not saying that your product isn't good. I have never used it and I am willing to concede that it may last a very long time and it may do a great job at hiding existing swirls (which I believe is what you are saying). I would be willing to test your product against any of them to see how it stacks up in the aspects that I find important. I would ask you to keep an open mind to some of the points I have made.

I am in no way attacking you, although I obviously have a different opinion. As somebody who is trusted to test pre-beta products for Meguiar's, somebody who has worked on cars with values that exceed $10,000,000.00 in preparing them for the most scrutinizing judges in the world, and somebody who is trusted in the education of enthusiasts and professional detailers by one of the oldest and largest E-tail stores in detailing equipment, I would say that a lot of what you state is really an old school point of view and seems to lack a basic understanding in the advancements of detailer. Particularly in regard to your knowledge of paint refinishing.

However that is the beauty in forums and communities. We can learn from each other. Now how do I go about getting a sample of AT-5?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/03/2011 05:38AM by Todd H.

"I do not know what you consider a swirl up mess.We washed that SUV with well
water and Dawn to prove a point. Also, it had been several months since the last application. Please send me a video of one of your waxed cars that was washed
with Dawn and well water. "

A swirled up mess would be the car in the video that had a bunch of scratches and swirl marks.

Dawn does not feature abrasives. Well water does not feature (or shouldn't feature) anything abrasive enough to scratch the paint. So why would a non-abrasive soap and non-abrasive liquid cause scratches (swirl marks)?

If previous swirl marks have been properly removed through high level polishing, then washing the car with gasoline wouldn't cause swirl marks. Wiping the paint with rubbing alcohol won't cause swirl marks (provided that a soft towel is used). Washing with dawn won't cause swirl marks. Washing with well water won't cause swirl marks. Wiping the paint with acetone won't cause swirl marks.

However if the swirl marks were never removed properly but rather covered up with a wax or sealant, then I suppose washing with dawn could make them reappear. Luckily most modern paint sealants will hold up fine to dawn and laugh at well water (unless the stuff is like green ooze with a pH of 13.4).

However you have stated earlier that you don't teach your customer's proper washing techniques, so is this how bad their car would look if they where to wash it with dawn and well-water?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/03/2011 05:42AM by Todd H.

Todd H
You make this statement:If you are seeing marks that look like buffer pattern swirls that is a result of somebody who doesn't know how to polish paint correctly. IE 99% of the detailers in the word. I think this is why you and many people have such a strong difference of opinion on this subject is because many people don't agree with your statement.

Well, if 99% of the detailers do not know how to polish paint correctly by your own statement.You might have a point on why many do not agree with what I say.

You never allowed me to express my opinion on your forum, and banned me.This is how you phrased it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by billd55 View Post
No one here is being forced to read my posts, so if you do not agree with
me or your head hurts. Then do'nt. But what do these remarks mean.
What does soviet anti tank missles have to do with anything. Please, start your own posts, but other people may have an interest.
Perhaps you should try telling that to somebody who doesn't have an interest in the ownership of this forum?

Bye-bye..
__________________
Todd Helme
Detailing Training and Education
properautocare.com

The reason I came to this forum was because this forum allows you to tell the truth. They do not have many moderators who allow what is said on the forum.
I heard you banned TOWGT from your site. A 30 year chemical engineer.I can understand you do not want spammers on your site, but not censorship.

If you feel I attacked you or your forum that was not my desire. I have a passion for this business and I am sick of seeing clear coats damaged for no reason.
I am not here to stir the pot and piss people off, but this is a sore subject to people who make a lot of their income from correction. I get it!


The examples I used from your forum were to wake detailers up.Do you think the
person that got a new black BMW from the dealer, and told them not to touch it
appreciated buffer marks on it when he picked it up? The detailer who posted
the post seemed happy the hacker at the dealership did his work, so he would
get paid to fix it.He shows pictures of no buffer marks, but who knows if they
did not come back later. I am sure he is not too concerned.If this was a one time post it would not be a issue, but your forum has a whole section dedicated to this problem. Enough said on this subject.


AT-5 does not cover swirl or buffer marks. Wax and glazes do. If a clear coat is damaged it is finished.Sure certain things can be removed, but many cannot.
A key scratch to the primer cannot for example. I have seen many pictures posted
in your shine and show section were they show done and not done sections. I can still see the fine scratches even with polishing.


From what I see you do high end cars, and these cars are usually garaged and washed the right way. It would not surprise me that your cars are swirl free.
Although, in the real world that is not the case.

What makes me different from all detailers is that I feel that protection is the
solution to the problem. AT-5 is a true protection product.The shine part of the
clear is in the very top part of the clear coat. About the thickness of a human hair at best. Buffing will wear it down and the natural shine will fade. Yes,
you can apply wax or something else to enhance it for a short time,but it will
lead to more buffing until it needs repainting.

The SUV in the video is a 2001. That is 11 years old. It has never been corrected,or any other product applied but AT-5.After more than three months since the last application and being outside everyday in the florida sun that
clear coat a great shine.

I appreciate you want to try AT-5. That shows a open mind on your part to learn something new. I do not work for Gem, but a long standing customer. You can contact them at 1-800-6Detail. Ask for Rich and mention Bill Daley referred you.
Maybe he can send you a sample to try.

One thing to remember, At-5 dries very quickly.You cannot do a whole side of a
car and come back and wipe it off.It will not happen. You need to do small sections by hand,and wipe it off upon application. They have two types. The high flash version is for aircraft and it has a longer drying time.

Billd

Quote
billd55
Todd H
You make this statement:If you are seeing marks that look like buffer pattern swirls that is a result of somebody who doesn't know how to polish paint correctly. IE 99% of the detailers in the word. I think this is why you and many people have such a strong difference of opinion on this subject is because many people don't agree with your statement.

Well, if 99% of the detailers do not know how to polish paint correctly by your own statement.You might have a point on why many do not agree with what I say.

Correct, but I think you are misreading my point. Those who know how to polish paint correctly and understand the mechanics of swirl marks and marring disagree with you.

Quote
billd55
You never allowed me to express my opinion on your forum, and banned me.This is how you phrased it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by billd55 View Post
No one here is being forced to read my posts, so if you do not agree with
me or your head hurts. Then do'nt. But what do these remarks mean.
What does soviet anti tank missles have to do with anything. Please, start your own posts, but other people may have an interest.
Perhaps you should try telling that to somebody who doesn't have an interest in the ownership of this forum?

Bye-bye..
__________________
Todd Helme
Detailing Training and Education
properautocare.com [/quote billd55]

You are one of only two people that I have ever banned from our forum, but I disagree that it wasn't because you were not given the opportunity to express yourself. In fact you were sent several private messages telling you exactly why you where in violation of forum standards. You did have plenty of opportunity to given any explanation you want. To be honest I hate banning people, but some people (for what ever reason) do not want to play by the rules. Forums cost money and you need to be respectful of the people who pay money for the forum. If not than at except the consequences of your actions.

Quote
billd55
The reason I came to this forum was because this forum allows you to tell the truth. They do not have many moderators who allow what is said on the forum.
I heard you banned TOWGT from your site. A 30 year chemical engineer.I can understand you do not want spammers on your site, but not censorship.

The problem is that you ASSUME that it is censorship that was the reason TOWGT was banned. I have no need to publicly. lament him, but your assumption is wrong.
If Jon would like to refute the reason for his banning or share it with the world that would be his business.

Quote
billd55
If you feel I attacked you or your forum that was not my desire. I have a passion for this business and I am sick of seeing clear coats damaged for no reason.
I am not here to stir the pot and piss people off, but this is a sore subject to people who make a lot of their income from correction. I get it!

Swirled and scratched up clear coat is clear coat that is damaged to begin with. Are you made at the cancer or the doctor who uses a blade to cure it?

Think of a flat plateau. This would be perfectly flat and level ground, or flat and level paint (for my analogy). For this example let's assume that the plateau is 100 feet high. Now lets get some dump trucks and carve 5 foot deep channels in the plateau. This would be similar to swirl marks that ruining the flat surface of pristine paint. The paint is already damaged.

Let's say we want to level the plateau flat, the only way to do this remove all the ground above the level of the deepest channel. Are we damaging the plateau further by removing the unevenness or are we correcting the problem.

So swirled up paint is damaged and if it is properly fixed, it will not cause further damage since the paint will not be leveled more than needed. (Basically all the stuff left behind is removed from the damaging scratches).

Quote
billd55
The examples I used from your forum were to wake detailers up.Do you think the
person that got a new black BMW from the dealer, and told them not to touch it
appreciated buffer marks on it when he picked it up? The detailer who posted
the post seemed happy the hacker at the dealership did his work, so he would
get paid to fix it.[/quote billd55]

I don't know which thread you are referring to and I don't recall anybody gloating over the hacks. However being grateful that so many detailers don't understand detailing and may think think that buffing is damaging, for example, and provide job security isn't wrong IMO.

Quote
billd55
He shows pictures of no buffer marks, but who knows if they
did not come back later.

Who knows if they do. You seem to base a lot of your view on your assumptions.

Quote
billd55
I am sure he is not too concerned.

How could you possibly assume this? Do you know the person? Do you know the quality of their work. Most detailers who take the time to post their work online tend to be very proud of their work and would be concerned, at least in experience.

Quote
billd55
If this was a one time post it would not be a issue, but your forum has a whole section dedicated to this problem. Enough said on this subject.

A section of what? People who actually take pride in their work and go to great measures to make sure they offer a higher level of service than the other 99% of detailers out there? People that (know that they are doing) polish paint to a true finish are not damaging the paint, they are fixing the damage.

Quote
billd55
AT-5 does not cover swirl or buffer marks. Wax and glazes do. If a clear coat is damaged it is finished.Sure certain things can be removed, but many cannot.
A key scratch to the primer cannot for example. I have seen many pictures posted
in your shine and show section were they show done and not done sections. I can still see the fine scratches even with polishing.

Correct, some damage is too deep to fully remove and it would dangerous to attempt it. It takes a true professional to know when the risk isn't worth the reward, which is why you will still see some deeper scratches. This is because you are seeing the work of a true professional who understands the limited amount of clear coat and who refuses to chase every scratch and damage the paint.

Quote
billd55
From what I see you do high end cars, and these cars are usually garaged and washed the right way.

Garaged? yes. Washed the right way? Not usually. As somebody who has done plenty of daily drivers in the past, I can assure you that the average condition of the paint on high end cars is no better than a daily driver. In fact most exotic cars arrive on our shores full of buffer trails, scratches, touch up work, etc. Having experience in both, I would testify on a stack of bibles that the condition of a entry level Toyota arriving on our shore is often far greater than that of a Ferrari.

Also the owners of the exotic/high end cars tend to have much higher expectations.

Quote
billd55
It would not surprise me that your cars are swirl free.
Although, in the real world that is not the case.

Perhaps in your experience, although I have several clients with daily drivers that I maintain every couple of weeks. They are still swirl free. I would agree that for the average person, the time required to keep pristine paint in pristine condition would be excessive. It is possible however.

Quote
billd55
What makes me different from all detailers is that I feel that protection is the
solution to the problem.

The solution to what problem? The solution to swirled up paint is to fix the swirls (if the owner desires). Protecting scratched paint isn't going to fix swirl marks or prevent new scratches from occurring.

A swirled up paint job, even with your product (that doesn't hide the swirls) is still going to look like swirled up paint, even with a nice shine. However a perfectly polished paint, one that reflects light evenly, is going to outshine the swirled up car, even if doesn't have a wax or sealant.

Quote
billd55
AT-5 is a true protection product.The shine part of the
clear is in the very top part of the clear coat. About the thickness of a human hair at best.

The average thickness of a human hair is about 30 microns, or 1 mil. Most modern clear coats are around 2 mils, or 50 microns, or about a sheet of notebook paper. Luckily the microscopic scratches that cause swirl marks can be as shallow as a micron (or less). Because light bends we see more of the scratch (the sharp bright reflected light looks bigger) than actually exists. Very light, micron deep swirl marks can be removed many times before any considerable thinning of the clear-coat exists.

While I agree that some hacks and quickly cut down the clear coat, true professionals (the type that disagree with you) go to great lengths to ensure that no more material is removed then necessary.

Quote
billd55
Buffing will wear it down and the natural shine will fade.

Excessive buffing will wear it down excessively. You have to remove a considerable amount of clear coat before you actually are going to see any change in the optics of it. Properly polished paint isn't going to fade, it's going to look amazing and reflect more light. This is just science.

Quote
billd55
Yes,
you can apply wax or something else to enhance it for a short time,but it will
lead to more buffing until it needs repainting.

If the paint is polished properly than it will need NOTHING to enhance it. I really think this a concept you are having a hard time grasping. If somebody doesn't know how to properly polish paint, then they may need a wax or glaze to make it appear so.

Again, I don't want to sound like I am attacking you, but you really seem to lack the most basic understanding of paint refinishing. If you experience has been that when you polish paint it starts to look worse after a while, then it is your ability to polish paint to a true, swirl free finish that is the problem, not the people who can do it.

Quote
billd55
The SUV in the video is a 2001. That is 11 years old. It has never been corrected,or any other product applied but AT-5.After more than three months since the last application and being outside everyday in the florida sun that
clear coat a great shine.

I disagree 100%. The paint didn't look sun faded, but the amount of swirls in the paint definitely didn't give it a great shine. If it was next to a perfectly polished car, the difference would have been very noticeable. But that is problem, you seem to be limited by your own expectations vs. the realization that there are people out there that have a much higher expectations and don't consider that paint to look that great. Nobodies right or wrong, but with how I view paint, I would consider that to be a mess.

Quote
billd55
I appreciate you want to try AT-5. That shows a open mind on your part to learn something new. I do not work for Gem, but a long standing customer. You can contact them at 1-800-6Detail begin_of_the_skype_highlighting              1-800-6Detail      end_of_the_skype_highlighting. Ask for Rich and mention Bill Daley referred you.
Maybe he can send you a sample to try.

One thing to remember, At-5 dries very quickly.You cannot do a whole side of a
car and come back and wipe it off.It will not happen. You need to do small sections by hand,and wipe it off upon application. They have two types. The high flash version is for aircraft and it has a longer drying time.

Billd

Thank you for tip and phone. I will call them tomorrow. I try to keep an open mind as I find this is the only way I learn. I know I have a lot to learn but I am also confident of what I have learned thus far. I would ask that you keep an open mind as well, tone down the aggressiveness of your posts, and share information.

Best

Todd

I really think when you see what AT-5 has to offer,you will understand what I am
saying more clearly. Without trying or using the product you cannot understand what I am trying to express.

I do not mean to come out in a harsh way, but detailers take a defensive position
when I share this info.Maybe you are a true professional, but 99% are not.
I am trying to share a concept that I have spent many years learning thru trial and error that offers a basic novice the ability to do basically the same thing you do,


I disagree 100%. The paint didn't look sun faded, but the amount of swirls in the paint definitely didn't give it a great shine. If it was next to a perfectly polished car, the difference would have been very noticeable. But that is problem, you seem to be limited by your own expectations vs. the realization that there are people out there that have a much higher expectations and don't consider that paint to look that great. Nobodies right or wrong, but with how I view paint, I would consider that to be a mess

Of course it would not compare to a perfectly polished car. My God I just washed it with Dawn and well water. Plus it had been over 3 months since the last application. My point was that you do not see swirl or buffer marks like all those before correction pics on shine and show..If I would have applied another coat it would have been MUCH different.

You are the first person to say he will contact Gem for a sample. I can tell this.
If your polishing methods are what you say then AT-5 will enhance the shine and clarity of the paint, and provide outstanding protection with the little required
from your customers. Although, if you apply it over your work,and buffer marks show in the sun.It will not be from AT-5.It will not cover up buffer marks like a wax or glaze.

As a test I would do one car my way without using correction. Wash/claybar/apply by hand.The other using you polishing method. That should be a fair test.

Quote
billd55
Wow Pro-Techt

I really do not Know how to respond to your last post.

That’s both shocking and thoughtless at the same time. Especially since you claim your chosen product is superior to every other, but can’t site how you come to this conclusion. Just face it, you haven’t tried any in the 1st place right? It’s one thing to be selectively bias after you experiment with like, kind and quality products, but in your case you can’t prove or document any of the products you’ve tested your miracle acrylic sealant against. Especially seeing that this is the 3rd time I’ve requested this info that you fail to own up to my request.

Quote
billd55
It is clear you have no experience detailing boats.

I’d be willing to bet I have much more experience detailing boat that you. If you’d like me to post pictures documenting this I can. And they aren’t anything close to that jalopy rig in your video either.

Quote
billd55
First, oxidation is not the reason for buffing. It is to remove the salt build up.
Without AT-5 the sun and salt would damage the gel coat and be much harder to remove the salt. Cars do not sit in salt water and direct sun light like boats.

If your miracle acrylic sealant was as good as you say it is, it would be protecting against salt build up and oxidation (from UV damage) and you wouldn’t need to keep buffing it and abrading away more layers of gel coat. There’s so many holes in your statements I can’t quite honestly see how someone with any basic knowledge of the fundamentals of detailing can’t comprehend it. I really hope you don’t rely on your detailing knowledge for a living??

Quote
billd55
I do not know what you consider a swirl up mess.We washed that SUV with well
water and Dawn to prove a point.

What point is that? That you live in the middle of the BF Florida and don’t what you’re doing? The finish of that truck is pathetic to put it nicely. And you have the nerve to call others Hacks??

Quote
billd55
Also, it had been several months since the last application.

Again, that’s a pathetic excuse for a miracle sealant that claims to last for 5 years. The swirls you’re trying to hide were so bad they were waving hello to me in your video. You either have no clue about detailing, or you’re borderline skitzo-autisticially-retarded buying into your self induced delusions of detailing grandeur.

Please send me a video of one of your waxed cars that was washed
with Dawn and well water. [/quote]


Well, can’t self-respectfully admit that I used well water as I’m in a gated community that has the basic luxury of city water, but I did wash this vehicle with Dawn: CLICK:

Quote
billd55
Gee, that is mighty big of you, anything else you would like.
To be honest with you I do not think you have the passion to use this product or promote it. Even if you had a sample it would sit on your self.If you are interested contact GEM yourself.

I’d be happier than you to promote a product 1/10 as good as you claim yours is, but I have a sneaking suspesion it’s performance will be as disappointing as your own on this thread. I’m actually planning on contacting GEM early next week and will try meeting with them to discuss their products as well as their spokesman’s behavior on the internet. I’m wondering if they realize that the credibility of their product is at risk every time you get outted and banned from countless Detailing discussion forums? When you Google their name these threads where you get lynched from seem to be at the top of a search. Well, I guess some view any publicity (be it negative in your case) is good publicity?

Really you should cool it with the attitude Pro- Techt.Todd H made this statement, not me: If you are seeing marks that look like buffer pattern swirls that is a result of somebody who doesn't know how to polish paint correctly. IE 99% of the detailers in the world.Clearly, there is a problem that the majority of detailers have no clue what they are doing with a polisher.

Since I do not polish my cars with a buffer, I am not part of the 99% he is talking about.


Being also from South Florida (east), I can also say that 99% of the “Detailers” in the entire state don’t have any more of a clue to the characteristics of what a well preserved vehicle looks like any more than the car owners they serve. It’s like the blind leading the blind actually. Even most owners that show off their vehicles in well renowned car shows think that even their swirled up paint finishes are the SOP of owning a show car. Getting through to these bubble heads to discuss how their car could look completely different with a proper polishing job is like talking to a rock. (Your quote )

I can also say that 99% of the “Detailers” in the entire state don’t have any more of a clue to the characteristics of what a well preserved vehicle looks like any more than the car owners they serve. Getting through to these bubble heads to discuss how their car could look completely different with a proper polishing job is like talking to a rock.


You either have no clue about detailing, or you’re borderline skitzo-autisticially-retarded buying into your self induced delusions of detailing grandeur.

This statement seems to sum you up much better than me IMO. I am not the one
using insulting terms like skitzo,autisticially-retarded, and bubbleheads.

The reason I mentioned you do not have the passion is because of this statement:
I’d be happier than you to promote a product 1/10 as good as you claim yours is, but I have a sneaking suspesion it’s performance will be as disappointing.

The difference between you and me is that I would not promote a product 1/10
as good."but I have a sneaking suspesion it’s performance will be as disappointing as your own thread". This is why it would sit on your self.
ToddH wants to be a better detailer and learn by this statement:Thank you for tip and phone. I will call them tomorrow. I try to keep an open mind as I find this is the only way I learn. I know I have a lot to learn but I am also confident of what I have learned thus far. I would ask that you keep an open mind as well, tone down the aggressiveness of your posts, and share information.



I’m actually planning on contacting GEM early next week and will try meeting with them to discuss their products as well as their spokesman’s behavior on the internet. I’m wondering if they realize that the credibility of their product is at risk every time you get outted and banned from countless Detailing discussion forums? When you Google their name these threads where you get lynched from seem to be at the top of a search. Well, I guess some view any publicity (be it negative in your case) is good publicity?



Please say hi to Rich for me (Bill Daley from Naples),and he can tell you how long I have been using the product.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2011 02:17PM by billd55.

4th time requesting what proof you have that AT-5 is better than any of the mainstream sealants you bash???


You're diverting the discussion and backpeddling Bill Daley because you obviously don't know what you're talking about. I've replied to every one of your claims and you've done nothing but make yourself look like the CRAZY "hack" Detailer you're claiming others are. How can you even call yourself a Detailer when you don't even use a polisher? You're just like the Hack Wash N Waxers that flood this state with poor quality work due to blatant ignorance. Just because you go around waxing people's cars doesn't make you a Detailer. Wake up and start learning from the people who know instead of thinking you have the miracle cure for paint. Peddle your crap at the car shows and state fairs to the people who don't know better. Good luck.

thems pretty mean words Mr Pro Techt

I feel that all BillD is saying is that you dont have to always do paint correction to fix paint and you shouldnt do it every time either. I agree with that

Sure a real Pro detailer/refinisher should own machine polishers but hey, its his choice

The way people talk, the way they write and the way other people receive the message can be very different. Bill isn't coming across as crazy, Pro-Techt. But you are having a heavy rant about what he is saying which makes you look a little over-emotional.

Bill is simply saying that Detailers who machine-polish with filler products will find that swirl marks return as the fillers diminish. Even moreso if they polish badly (old or dirty pads, incorrect compounds/speeds, etc). He feels that simply using a good sealant will reduce the need for washing, thereby reducing wash-induced swirls and reducing the need to machine-polish overall, thus breaking the swirl cycle. (Personally, I see swirls and marks that are mainly wash-induced - that's my market though. Average detailer here polishes by hand not machine).

Bill, I appreciate that you like AT-5. I can't get it here. But both myself and now SVR have tried an excellent new sealant called Crystal Diamond Glaze from ReStructure Marine Products. You can apply it by hand, but its finest qualities are revealed when applied with a DA and soft foam pad. What do you say to trying something new and comparing it to AT-5? I know you will say you don't need to try something new, but that is what others say about AT-5 versus what they use already.

Go on, take a chance. : )

Profile Detailer

Why can you not get AT-5 were you live? If you call GEM at 1-800-6-DETAIL
they can ship you a gallon. Just ask for Rich.

I am not saying this product is bad. From what I see it is a step in the right direction. Although, it is a bit pricey at $29.95 for 12 oz bottle. This will
do 3 cars.bdpdistributing.com/marine?page=shop.browse&category_id=8

I can buy a gallon of AT-5 for around $40.00. Even with shipping included and
no sales tax it seems like a better deal with AT-5.They sell a pre-cleaner that is awesome for $22.00 a gallon.


If you want to spent more for this product it is okay.Your adding $10.00 to your
cost which is not alot.At least you are using a product that will avoid machine and wash induced swirl marks that will lead to correction.


Look, I am not here to piss people off. It is not who is the better detailer with me. I have seen this problem for many years, and no one is to concerned about it. I feel it is a subject that needs to be discussed so the industry can
address it.

Prevention is the answer in my mind. By helping customers protect their paint finish from damage, and not correct it after it happens. Detailers will be looked upon as professionals. Keeping it affordable is the key.

What takes soo much time is fixing imperfections in the paint, so use the right
product, it makes you more money, and keeps yours customers coming back.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2011 02:02PM by billd55.

g'day profile

Yeah Restructure are excellent products. I dont use them as a sealant though, only as a long term filling pure polish/glaze which is then sealed in with Gtechniq C2

How are you using them as a long term filling pure polish without the product washing off?

Hi SVR.
Very surprised to hear you use it with C2. I would rate it better than C2 which in reality only lasts a few months as a sealant. You applying CDG via DA? Two coats offers a fantastic finish. I'm getting very good feedback on the longevity and ease of maintenance from customers. One client got a brand new car and drove it straight over to me for a coating of CDG. I upsold it to CQuartz though! lol

Hey, speaking of which, I wanted to check with you a few weeks ago (but slipped my mind) - Have you used Hi-Mohs at all? There's another brand new one "Beautiful G'Zox Q7" which is supposed to be really something special. Can't get them on this side of Europe and I can't understand the Mfgr's website since its all Japanese so I can't email them.

I'm just curious as to ease of application, finish and how they compare to my current stable coating, CQuartz. Any experience with them?