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I'm not a pro, BUT....
Posted by robert norton
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I'm not a pro, BUT.... May 04, 2005 12:07AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 8 |
<HTML>I am not a professional detailer, just a car nut that loves a really clean (not just looks clean) car. I have fallen for a few myths in my day, but I think that overall, I am fairly knowledgable about keeping my cars clean. I do know the difference between a polish and a wax, and I know when to use each.
What is your opinion of Stoner's products? I use their "Invisible glass" and their "Trim Shine". I like both. I also use "Top of the Line" Trade Secret wax. But then again, I also liked Pledge as a touch-up product. Any words of wisdom from the pros?
PS....I stopped using the Pledge after your answers made sense. I washed the car with Dawn to strip it down, gave it a good rinse and started over.
Thanks,
Bob</HTML>
What is your opinion of Stoner's products? I use their "Invisible glass" and their "Trim Shine". I like both. I also use "Top of the Line" Trade Secret wax. But then again, I also liked Pledge as a touch-up product. Any words of wisdom from the pros?
PS....I stopped using the Pledge after your answers made sense. I washed the car with Dawn to strip it down, gave it a good rinse and started over.
Thanks,
Bob</HTML>
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Re: I'm not a pro, BUT.... May 05, 2005 01:47PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 1,838 |
<HTML>I can vouge that Stoner makes amazing products that do work (Invisible Glass, Tarminator and Trim Shine are my favs.)
I've heard good things about Top of the Line but have not used thier products.
I use Pledge in my own vehicle's interior as a cleaner & dressing. Thats my tip but can be expensive to use it in large volume shops.</HTML>
Take care,
Brian
Precision Auto & Marine
Learn to detail boats! Visit www.detailtheboat.com
I've heard good things about Top of the Line but have not used thier products.
I use Pledge in my own vehicle's interior as a cleaner & dressing. Thats my tip but can be expensive to use it in large volume shops.</HTML>
Take care,
Brian
Precision Auto & Marine
Learn to detail boats! Visit www.detailtheboat.com
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Re: I'm not a pro, BUT.... May 06, 2005 02:40PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 8 |
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Re: I'm not a pro, BUT.... May 07, 2005 02:28AM |
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Re: I'm not a pro, BUT.... May 07, 2005 02:50AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 241 |
<HTML>Hey, all,
The ability for a "water based" or "hydrocarbon" based dressing to have "real UV" blockers in it, is not really possible, chemically.
What the "UV" protection that is provided, is really the "reflective" value of the gloss provided.
Ever go out an buy true "UV" protective additives?
If they were truly in any of the products that "sell" that, you would be paying at least 500% more than you are.
Plus, if they were in the product, they wouldn't stay there for long.
These high priced UV additives would be in an evaporative resin system, and would just evaporate away in a short period of time.
They have no "strong" resin system to hold them in place!!
Dressings do not have the "resin" system, IE, binder/film former system that a "paint/clear" has.
It is entirely different chemistry.
Ain't "marketing with words" a hoot?
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it all!
The ability for a "water based" or "hydrocarbon" based dressing to have "real UV" blockers in it, is not really possible, chemically.
What the "UV" protection that is provided, is really the "reflective" value of the gloss provided.
Ever go out an buy true "UV" protective additives?
If they were truly in any of the products that "sell" that, you would be paying at least 500% more than you are.
Plus, if they were in the product, they wouldn't stay there for long.
These high priced UV additives would be in an evaporative resin system, and would just evaporate away in a short period of time.
They have no "strong" resin system to hold them in place!!
Dressings do not have the "resin" system, IE, binder/film former system that a "paint/clear" has.
It is entirely different chemistry.
Ain't "marketing with words" a hoot?
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it all!
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Re: I'm not a pro, BUT.... May 07, 2005 03:25AM |
<HTML>Ketch,
Yes! I do recall you telling me just that over the phone one time.
Sounds to me the UV claim is a real "tall tale" and one certainly shouldn't base a serious product purchae decision on it. So, for example, shame on 303 for revolving around the whole UV hype if I'm understanding correctly.</HTML>
Yes! I do recall you telling me just that over the phone one time.
Sounds to me the UV claim is a real "tall tale" and one certainly shouldn't base a serious product purchae decision on it. So, for example, shame on 303 for revolving around the whole UV hype if I'm understanding correctly.</HTML>
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Re: I'm not a pro, BUT.... May 07, 2005 03:46AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 241 |
<HTML>Bill,
Hell, all of us who make or market products, will use marketing, etc to sell products.
Ever think about "how the life insurance salesman" gets your attention?
Anyway, it is really very simple, for those who "wish to listen to logic">
Has anyone, be they a professional detailer for more than 10 to 20 years, or an enthusist that just likes their car to look good, ever seen a "dressing" that lasted for more than 30 days????
Not likely, is it?
Because a "dressing" is just than, a "dressing", not a "coating", not "paint", which is a coating.
And, to those who use logic, been in this business for more than a couple of years, have seen, even a "coating" such as paint, does show the effects of UV's, ozone, enviormental pollutants, washing, etc.
So, logic comes into play, once again.
How can a "dressing" really provide any true long term or "UV" protection, other than the "reflective" value of throwing the damaging UV's back from the surface for a short time?
The other side of this coin, is this, the High Shine products, use dimethal silicones in a petroluem distillage for the carrier, and that solvent is proven to be damaging to the very rubber of the tire, trim, etc that they are attempting to protect.
I know, I know, there are always those who will come forth and "testify", "I have used this or that for years, and I don't have a problem!!!"
Well, good for them, but what about the people who make the tires, the trim, etc and for millions and millions of vehicles, who say, "it just ain't so, Skippy!"?
That is why I don't pay too much attention to what "one" satisfied user has to present.
I perfer to take the advice of the engineers, their certified, private or company labs, have shown to be the truth.
ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it all!
Hell, all of us who make or market products, will use marketing, etc to sell products.
Ever think about "how the life insurance salesman" gets your attention?
Anyway, it is really very simple, for those who "wish to listen to logic">
Has anyone, be they a professional detailer for more than 10 to 20 years, or an enthusist that just likes their car to look good, ever seen a "dressing" that lasted for more than 30 days????
Not likely, is it?
Because a "dressing" is just than, a "dressing", not a "coating", not "paint", which is a coating.
And, to those who use logic, been in this business for more than a couple of years, have seen, even a "coating" such as paint, does show the effects of UV's, ozone, enviormental pollutants, washing, etc.
So, logic comes into play, once again.
How can a "dressing" really provide any true long term or "UV" protection, other than the "reflective" value of throwing the damaging UV's back from the surface for a short time?
The other side of this coin, is this, the High Shine products, use dimethal silicones in a petroluem distillage for the carrier, and that solvent is proven to be damaging to the very rubber of the tire, trim, etc that they are attempting to protect.
I know, I know, there are always those who will come forth and "testify", "I have used this or that for years, and I don't have a problem!!!"
Well, good for them, but what about the people who make the tires, the trim, etc and for millions and millions of vehicles, who say, "it just ain't so, Skippy!"?
That is why I don't pay too much attention to what "one" satisfied user has to present.
I perfer to take the advice of the engineers, their certified, private or company labs, have shown to be the truth.
ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it all!
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Re: I'm not a pro, BUT.... May 07, 2005 03:57AM |
<HTML>All great points.
My eyes kinas popped when I saw these new "tire coating" type products appear on the market this year, at least this once.
I get concerned about what the ingredients in such a product could be in that it is an actual coating. Logic, like you say, tells me it's probably not great for the tires. Nothing I would ever fathom trying.</HTML>
My eyes kinas popped when I saw these new "tire coating" type products appear on the market this year, at least this once.
I get concerned about what the ingredients in such a product could be in that it is an actual coating. Logic, like you say, tells me it's probably not great for the tires. Nothing I would ever fathom trying.</HTML>
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Re: I'm not a pro, BUT.... May 07, 2005 04:21AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 241 |
<HTML>Bill,
It gets more involved, as you go through the "logic" of this subject.
Let's start with "applying paint to a vehicle's surface".
At this point, you may be asking yourself, "what the hell does that have to do with a tire dressing"?
Logic, my friend, logic.
When one wishes to apply paint to a vehicles body, some "cleaning" steps must be taken, to assure that there are no "waxes, silicones, etc" or the paint coating, be it primers, color or clear, will not stick.
No argument there, right?
Next step in the "logical" process of understanding is the way that a tire manufacturer, produces the tire it's self.
This relates to the article on our AI web site about Tires, Vinyl, Leather, etc and the way tires are made to reduce and protect the tire's sidewall from damaging UV rays and Ozone.
The "wax" that is in the tire!!!
That "wax" blooms out as the tire is flexing as it rotates when driven, creates a migration to the outer surface of the sidewall.
That "wax" that comes out, is "sacrifical", it is used up, goes away, due to the UV's, the ozone, and the use of hydrocarbon/dimethal silicone dressings and the use of caustic wheel and tire cleaners.
The "browning", of the tire's sidewall, are you getting this?
Anyway, how do you apply a "coating" to a surface that is full of wax, that is always migrating?
It won't stay there for long, will it?
It can't, as it has no substrate to attach to, it is becoming part of the sacrifical coating, so it goes away, with the wax that the tire emits.
We make a coating, that is very long lasting, when on a surface that is not emitting the waxes, like trim pieces that are not produces with an interal release agent.
That is the UV-Gard in the ETR kit.
If a tire is free of the "greasy kid stuff" dressings, and dry when applied, it can last for a couple of months or longer, depending on what the driving habits of the owner may be.
Short trips around town, no excessive heat, no excessive flexing, like when a vehicle is driven for a couple of hours on the interstate, it will last longer.
Get what I am saying?
The "flexing" of the tire, pushes the waxes out and that pushes the coating away, and makes it go away.
Plus, these type of coatings are much more expensive to produce than a "dressing", and since 99.9% of the public, including detailers, are not aware or do not care to know, that which makes these things work or not work, it won't sell.
If it won't sell, and the manufacturer can make a profit, why do it?
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it all!
It gets more involved, as you go through the "logic" of this subject.
Let's start with "applying paint to a vehicle's surface".
At this point, you may be asking yourself, "what the hell does that have to do with a tire dressing"?
Logic, my friend, logic.
When one wishes to apply paint to a vehicles body, some "cleaning" steps must be taken, to assure that there are no "waxes, silicones, etc" or the paint coating, be it primers, color or clear, will not stick.
No argument there, right?
Next step in the "logical" process of understanding is the way that a tire manufacturer, produces the tire it's self.
This relates to the article on our AI web site about Tires, Vinyl, Leather, etc and the way tires are made to reduce and protect the tire's sidewall from damaging UV rays and Ozone.
The "wax" that is in the tire!!!
That "wax" blooms out as the tire is flexing as it rotates when driven, creates a migration to the outer surface of the sidewall.
That "wax" that comes out, is "sacrifical", it is used up, goes away, due to the UV's, the ozone, and the use of hydrocarbon/dimethal silicone dressings and the use of caustic wheel and tire cleaners.
The "browning", of the tire's sidewall, are you getting this?
Anyway, how do you apply a "coating" to a surface that is full of wax, that is always migrating?
It won't stay there for long, will it?
It can't, as it has no substrate to attach to, it is becoming part of the sacrifical coating, so it goes away, with the wax that the tire emits.
We make a coating, that is very long lasting, when on a surface that is not emitting the waxes, like trim pieces that are not produces with an interal release agent.
That is the UV-Gard in the ETR kit.
If a tire is free of the "greasy kid stuff" dressings, and dry when applied, it can last for a couple of months or longer, depending on what the driving habits of the owner may be.
Short trips around town, no excessive heat, no excessive flexing, like when a vehicle is driven for a couple of hours on the interstate, it will last longer.
Get what I am saying?
The "flexing" of the tire, pushes the waxes out and that pushes the coating away, and makes it go away.
Plus, these type of coatings are much more expensive to produce than a "dressing", and since 99.9% of the public, including detailers, are not aware or do not care to know, that which makes these things work or not work, it won't sell.
If it won't sell, and the manufacturer can make a profit, why do it?
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it all!
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Re: I'm not a pro, BUT.... May 07, 2005 05:10AM |
<HTML>Ketch,
Great post about the natutre of tires, the "wax" in them and how they react to the enviroment. I was aware of the wax, the "blooming" and how it migrates. Got that from the superb article on vinyl and rubber products and I noticed 303 takes huge note of it to market their products with their slant on how their product is so beneficial.
These coating products though, available to the average consumer, they sound like they can be harmful to the the composition of the tire perhaps in a similar way as the dimethyl silicone "greasy kiddie" products are. Basically, it's great they "work", the look they provide is purely subjective but what do they really do to the tires? It's a non issue for nearly all and it doesn't "reall" matter in the grand scheme of things ,but us "kooks", that .1 % like to know
Always an excellent late night discussion with you!</HTML>
Great post about the natutre of tires, the "wax" in them and how they react to the enviroment. I was aware of the wax, the "blooming" and how it migrates. Got that from the superb article on vinyl and rubber products and I noticed 303 takes huge note of it to market their products with their slant on how their product is so beneficial.
These coating products though, available to the average consumer, they sound like they can be harmful to the the composition of the tire perhaps in a similar way as the dimethyl silicone "greasy kiddie" products are. Basically, it's great they "work", the look they provide is purely subjective but what do they really do to the tires? It's a non issue for nearly all and it doesn't "reall" matter in the grand scheme of things ,but us "kooks", that .1 % like to know
Always an excellent late night discussion with you!</HTML>
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Re: I'm not a pro, BUT.... May 07, 2005 02:42PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 241 |
<HTML>Bill,
303 is damned fine product.
However, in reality it is not different than the PDMS products made by Mequiar's, ValuGard, AutoMagic, etc, in which the PDMS resin is mixed with water as it's carrier.
The main difference in the 303 is the percentage of resin, they put in a higher percentage of it, which is why it is more costly than others.
The quality resin is expensive.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it all!
303 is damned fine product.
However, in reality it is not different than the PDMS products made by Mequiar's, ValuGard, AutoMagic, etc, in which the PDMS resin is mixed with water as it's carrier.
The main difference in the 303 is the percentage of resin, they put in a higher percentage of it, which is why it is more costly than others.
The quality resin is expensive.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it all!
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Re: I'm not a pro, BUT.... May 13, 2005 03:15PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 8 |
<HTML>I did not mean to strike-up this "depth" of information. All I asked was a simple question about trim and tire dressing. You guys are debating the chemical composition and manufacturing process. While I'm really impressed with your knowledge of the products you use, I think it is a little over-kill. After all, except for antique show cars, who keeps a tire more that 3 years? Once it is worn to about 60% life, it is uncomfortable to drive in the rain and is (or should be) replaced. The fact that some products breakdown the composition "over-time" what time frame are you talking about? Are we talking 5 years....7 years?
Just my unprofessional two-cents.
Bob</HTML>
Just my unprofessional two-cents.
Bob</HTML>
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Re: I'm not a pro, BUT.... May 14, 2005 02:54AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 241 |
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