Welcome!
» Log In
» Create A New Profile
Home
>
Auto Detailing: Secrets of the Experts
>
Topic
Soap and pH
Posted by Phil Goode
|
Soap and pH November 03, 2003 02:52AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 435 |
|
Re: Soap and pH November 03, 2003 03:20AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 1,838 |
|
Re: Soap and pH November 03, 2003 04:18AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Phil:
All shampoos and cleaners are alkaline. The key is how much above 7 they are. Water based chemicals are rated on their pH. On the pH scale 7 is neutral.
Anything below 7 is acidic and anything above 7 is alkaline.
How acidic a product is depends on the type of acid added to the cleaner.
How alkaline a product is depends on what is added. For example, if you add a caustic (sodium hydroxide) to a cleaning chemical the pH does up to near the maximum on the scale of 14. Most are about 12 to 13 pH. Very hot and very damaging if used on carpets; vinyl or leather or the paint.
These are the typica ranges of pH for cleaning products:
Acidic wheel cleaners - 3 to4 pH
Carpet Shampoos 8 to 9 pH
Vinyl Leather Cleaners 9 to 10 pH
All Purpose Cleaners - 9 to 11 pH
Engine Degreasers - 12 to 14 pH
White Wall Cleaners 12 to 14 pH
Looking at chemicals in terms of pH you can see why you do not use engine degreaser to clean carpets. Or all purpose cleaners to clean engines.
Any, diluting does not really lower the pH of a product.
Hope that helps you.
If you want to use a non-harmful, but not very effective cleaner use Ivory hand soap which is about 7 pH.
Regards
bud abraham</HTML>
buda
All shampoos and cleaners are alkaline. The key is how much above 7 they are. Water based chemicals are rated on their pH. On the pH scale 7 is neutral.
Anything below 7 is acidic and anything above 7 is alkaline.
How acidic a product is depends on the type of acid added to the cleaner.
How alkaline a product is depends on what is added. For example, if you add a caustic (sodium hydroxide) to a cleaning chemical the pH does up to near the maximum on the scale of 14. Most are about 12 to 13 pH. Very hot and very damaging if used on carpets; vinyl or leather or the paint.
These are the typica ranges of pH for cleaning products:
Acidic wheel cleaners - 3 to4 pH
Carpet Shampoos 8 to 9 pH
Vinyl Leather Cleaners 9 to 10 pH
All Purpose Cleaners - 9 to 11 pH
Engine Degreasers - 12 to 14 pH
White Wall Cleaners 12 to 14 pH
Looking at chemicals in terms of pH you can see why you do not use engine degreaser to clean carpets. Or all purpose cleaners to clean engines.
Any, diluting does not really lower the pH of a product.
Hope that helps you.
If you want to use a non-harmful, but not very effective cleaner use Ivory hand soap which is about 7 pH.
Regards
bud abraham</HTML>
buda
|
Re: Soap and pH November 03, 2003 06:30PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 103 |
<HTML>Let's talk about pH for a second. I thought I posted this earlier. The scale is a measure of alkalinity or acidity and the scale is given correctly however I submit these corrections:
pH is the concentration of ions in solution. If you dilute the solution you decrease the concentration of ions in that solution. The scale is logrithmic so it's not a 1:1 change in pH.
Take 1L of pH 12 solution (any solution is fine!) and add 1L pure water. You diluted the solution two fold (so that all the components are now at 1/2 their original concentration) but the pH is not 1/2 the original (pH 6) or even 1/2 of the way to neutral (pH 9.5). The pH change is negligible- 11.7
To make your 1L solution have a pH of 11 you have dilute it by a factor of 10!! So you must add 9L of pure water.... To change it to a pH 10 you must dilute your new solution by a factor of ten or dilute your original solution by a factor of 100 (10x10). So you can see that changing pH is possible but difficult as you dilute your solution immensely.
That said there is a solution. Buffers. Buffers are chemicals that have a property that allows them so soak up protons or release them based on the pH and thus keep the solution very near a specific pH. They're not that fancy really- some ordinary examples are: Sodium bicarbonate (baking soda), phospate (most old school cleaners had them before environmental concerns nearly ended their use), sulfates, ammonia, etc.
Many good cleaners can and are pH buffered. They say pH balanced or neutral pH. They are also safer for your hands too! Meguiars interior products are pH balanced and I think 3M's are too.
Hope this helps.</HTML>
pH is the concentration of ions in solution. If you dilute the solution you decrease the concentration of ions in that solution. The scale is logrithmic so it's not a 1:1 change in pH.
Take 1L of pH 12 solution (any solution is fine!) and add 1L pure water. You diluted the solution two fold (so that all the components are now at 1/2 their original concentration) but the pH is not 1/2 the original (pH 6) or even 1/2 of the way to neutral (pH 9.5). The pH change is negligible- 11.7
To make your 1L solution have a pH of 11 you have dilute it by a factor of 10!! So you must add 9L of pure water.... To change it to a pH 10 you must dilute your new solution by a factor of ten or dilute your original solution by a factor of 100 (10x10). So you can see that changing pH is possible but difficult as you dilute your solution immensely.
That said there is a solution. Buffers. Buffers are chemicals that have a property that allows them so soak up protons or release them based on the pH and thus keep the solution very near a specific pH. They're not that fancy really- some ordinary examples are: Sodium bicarbonate (baking soda), phospate (most old school cleaners had them before environmental concerns nearly ended their use), sulfates, ammonia, etc.
Many good cleaners can and are pH buffered. They say pH balanced or neutral pH. They are also safer for your hands too! Meguiars interior products are pH balanced and I think 3M's are too.
Hope this helps.</HTML>
|
Re: Soap and pH November 03, 2003 09:09PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 435 |
|
Re: Soap and pH November 03, 2003 10:08PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>This is getting too complicated, alkalines and buffers and pH.
Here is the thing, as Robert points out very clearly, when you dilute a high pH chemical you do not appreciably reduce pH, and why would you want to?
As I have stated numerous times use chemical products for what they designed to do:
Carpet Shampoo
Engine Degreaser
Wheel Cleaner
White Wall Cleaner
Vinyl/Leather Cleaner
Glass Cleaner
Carwash Shampoo
For example, a product with a pH of 14 usually has sodium hydroxide in it which is a caustic. Why would you want to use an aggressive caustic like that on carpets? You would not.
Why would you want to use an All Purpose Cleaner for an engine degreaser. That name, All Purpose is kind of an oxymoron. How can it be good for all things? It can't. If it is used for vinyl and leather than how can it be strong enough for engines?
Guys, make like easy for yourself and just buy a line of chemicals to do what they were designed for and get on with the business of detailing and not the chemicals of detailing.
REgards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
Here is the thing, as Robert points out very clearly, when you dilute a high pH chemical you do not appreciably reduce pH, and why would you want to?
As I have stated numerous times use chemical products for what they designed to do:
Carpet Shampoo
Engine Degreaser
Wheel Cleaner
White Wall Cleaner
Vinyl/Leather Cleaner
Glass Cleaner
Carwash Shampoo
For example, a product with a pH of 14 usually has sodium hydroxide in it which is a caustic. Why would you want to use an aggressive caustic like that on carpets? You would not.
Why would you want to use an All Purpose Cleaner for an engine degreaser. That name, All Purpose is kind of an oxymoron. How can it be good for all things? It can't. If it is used for vinyl and leather than how can it be strong enough for engines?
Guys, make like easy for yourself and just buy a line of chemicals to do what they were designed for and get on with the business of detailing and not the chemicals of detailing.
REgards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
|
Re: Soap and pH November 04, 2003 01:11AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 1,838 |
<HTML>Bud:
While I'm not disagreeing with you, I do have a different opinion when it comes to cleaners.
For the record, I have never had a problem arise from using the dilution method recommended by the manufacturer. I know the ph doesn't change but the strength of the cleaner does--from what I see. I use Auto Magic's Special Concentrate Cleaner on a number of parts. Using different dilutions according to their directions, I have achieved excellent results. For example, for an engine, I'll either use it at a 1:1 dilution or full strength. Same with Red Hot but found SCC to be more "detailer friendly." This cleaner is also recommended to remove bugs and grease on a car's paint at a different dilution and cleans wheels at another. Also a pre-spot.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is why would a manufacturer say an all purpose cleaner is safe to use on multiple parts of the car if it isn't? And these claims aren't from Auto Magic but from Stoner as well.
Bud, I'd take your advice over a supplier's but wouldn't they want to sell more products for each specific use instead of a dilutable product? I do, however, have specific products for specific uses but see that my all-purpose cleaner does the job of half of them--wheel/tire cleaner, engine degreaser, pre-soak, pre-spotter.</HTML>
Take care,
Brian
Precision Auto & Marine
Learn to detail boats! Visit www.detailtheboat.com
While I'm not disagreeing with you, I do have a different opinion when it comes to cleaners.
For the record, I have never had a problem arise from using the dilution method recommended by the manufacturer. I know the ph doesn't change but the strength of the cleaner does--from what I see. I use Auto Magic's Special Concentrate Cleaner on a number of parts. Using different dilutions according to their directions, I have achieved excellent results. For example, for an engine, I'll either use it at a 1:1 dilution or full strength. Same with Red Hot but found SCC to be more "detailer friendly." This cleaner is also recommended to remove bugs and grease on a car's paint at a different dilution and cleans wheels at another. Also a pre-spot.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is why would a manufacturer say an all purpose cleaner is safe to use on multiple parts of the car if it isn't? And these claims aren't from Auto Magic but from Stoner as well.
Bud, I'd take your advice over a supplier's but wouldn't they want to sell more products for each specific use instead of a dilutable product? I do, however, have specific products for specific uses but see that my all-purpose cleaner does the job of half of them--wheel/tire cleaner, engine degreaser, pre-soak, pre-spotter.</HTML>
Take care,
Brian
Precision Auto & Marine
Learn to detail boats! Visit www.detailtheboat.com
|
Re: Soap and pH November 05, 2003 03:50AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 121 |
|
Re: Soap and pH November 05, 2003 11:23PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 117 |
<HTML>
ALL PURPOSE CHEMICALS ARE NICE IF YOU HAVE 100 SPRAY BOTTLES AT DIFFERENT DILUTION RATIO'S. YOU DONT WANT TO USE RED HOT AT A 1:1 RATIO TRYING TO CLEAN SOMEONES LEATHER SEATS. OR TRY TO CLEAN A ENGINE WITH RED HOT AT A DILUTION OF 1:1000. IF ALL PURPOSE WAS REALLY MENT FOR ALL PURPOSE USES THEN AT WHAT DILUTION TO I DILUTE RED HOT TO WAS MY HAIR. I TEND TO KEEP THINGS PRETTY SIMPLE LEATHER CLEANER FOR LEATHER, ENGINE CLEANER FOR ENGINE, ETC. ITS EASIR ON YOU IN THE LONG RUN PLUS WHEN YOU ARE TRAINING AN EMPLOYEE IT GETS THEM IN A HABIT TO READ DIRECTIONS BEFORE THEY USE THE CHEMICAL. WHICH REMEMBER COMES OUT OF YOUR POCKET IF THEY ARE USING WRONG DILUTION RATIO'S.</HTML>
PRECISION POWER WASHING & AUTO DETAILING
ALL PURPOSE CHEMICALS ARE NICE IF YOU HAVE 100 SPRAY BOTTLES AT DIFFERENT DILUTION RATIO'S. YOU DONT WANT TO USE RED HOT AT A 1:1 RATIO TRYING TO CLEAN SOMEONES LEATHER SEATS. OR TRY TO CLEAN A ENGINE WITH RED HOT AT A DILUTION OF 1:1000. IF ALL PURPOSE WAS REALLY MENT FOR ALL PURPOSE USES THEN AT WHAT DILUTION TO I DILUTE RED HOT TO WAS MY HAIR. I TEND TO KEEP THINGS PRETTY SIMPLE LEATHER CLEANER FOR LEATHER, ENGINE CLEANER FOR ENGINE, ETC. ITS EASIR ON YOU IN THE LONG RUN PLUS WHEN YOU ARE TRAINING AN EMPLOYEE IT GETS THEM IN A HABIT TO READ DIRECTIONS BEFORE THEY USE THE CHEMICAL. WHICH REMEMBER COMES OUT OF YOUR POCKET IF THEY ARE USING WRONG DILUTION RATIO'S.</HTML>
PRECISION POWER WASHING & AUTO DETAILING
|
Re: Soap and pH November 06, 2003 03:30AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 103 |
<HTML>Sorry guys, been a bit busy...
Degreasers do rely on the heavy alkaline content to clean. Thus buffering the high pH degreaser would basically neuter it. At the same time cleaning is not detergent + water on every surface. For example leather. You want solvent but not too much water as it speeds up leather breakdown. You want a surfactant or detergent to aid soil loosening and removal, but you don't want to strip the leather of it's vital oils which prevent leather breakdown and cracking. They buffer this solution because acids and alkalis both degrade leather. Thus many manf. test and test to find products that can safely clean without damage. That is why you COULD use simple green or any other all-in-one but hopefully you see why NOT to use them. I understand that it saves money and time but you become a two bit car washer at that point. You are doing nothing for the car the customer could not do themselves! Think about it, what separates you as a pro is that you should be able to assess the condition of the vehicle- paint to leather (or cloth) and care for each part properly cleaning, restoring, preserving. That is why you charge what you charge in good conscience! This is a selling point as to why they should give their car to you and not take it to the local carwash or do it themselves.</HTML>
Degreasers do rely on the heavy alkaline content to clean. Thus buffering the high pH degreaser would basically neuter it. At the same time cleaning is not detergent + water on every surface. For example leather. You want solvent but not too much water as it speeds up leather breakdown. You want a surfactant or detergent to aid soil loosening and removal, but you don't want to strip the leather of it's vital oils which prevent leather breakdown and cracking. They buffer this solution because acids and alkalis both degrade leather. Thus many manf. test and test to find products that can safely clean without damage. That is why you COULD use simple green or any other all-in-one but hopefully you see why NOT to use them. I understand that it saves money and time but you become a two bit car washer at that point. You are doing nothing for the car the customer could not do themselves! Think about it, what separates you as a pro is that you should be able to assess the condition of the vehicle- paint to leather (or cloth) and care for each part properly cleaning, restoring, preserving. That is why you charge what you charge in good conscience! This is a selling point as to why they should give their car to you and not take it to the local carwash or do it themselves.</HTML>
|
Re: Soap and pH November 06, 2003 05:03AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 435 |
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.