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What Expenses are in Your Hourly Rate
Posted by Bud Abraham
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What Expenses are in Your Hourly Rate November 13, 2003 07:01AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Detailers:
How many of you include in your hourly rate the following fringe benefits:
Monthly health insurance premium
Time your business would be closed for sick leave
Time your business would be closed for say two weeks vacation
Premium for 401K or some type of retirement
PROFIT at least 10%
Why or why not?
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
How many of you include in your hourly rate the following fringe benefits:
Monthly health insurance premium
Time your business would be closed for sick leave
Time your business would be closed for say two weeks vacation
Premium for 401K or some type of retirement
PROFIT at least 10%
Why or why not?
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
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Re: What Expenses are in Your Hourly Rate November 14, 2003 05:08AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 1,838 |
<HTML>Bud:
Can't say I include any of the fringe benefits you listed. Beside general business expenses, I don't include anything else.
I look at it this way, since I'm only 26, have no wife & kids, or any illness I don't need health insurance --until I get married and have kids that is. I only go to the doctors once a year for an annual check-up and labs. Never for a cold. I looked into health insurance and it's not worth it now.
Instead of a 401k I just do ING investments. I don't want anyone else managing my money (investors and brokers I'm talking about.)
Basically, eveything is profit. If I get sick and need a few days off, I live off the profit.
Make sense?</HTML>
Take care,
Brian
Precision Auto & Marine
Learn to detail boats! Visit www.detailtheboat.com
Can't say I include any of the fringe benefits you listed. Beside general business expenses, I don't include anything else.
I look at it this way, since I'm only 26, have no wife & kids, or any illness I don't need health insurance --until I get married and have kids that is. I only go to the doctors once a year for an annual check-up and labs. Never for a cold. I looked into health insurance and it's not worth it now.
Instead of a 401k I just do ING investments. I don't want anyone else managing my money (investors and brokers I'm talking about.)
Basically, eveything is profit. If I get sick and need a few days off, I live off the profit.
Make sense?</HTML>
Take care,
Brian
Precision Auto & Marine
Learn to detail boats! Visit www.detailtheboat.com
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Re: What Expenses are in Your Hourly Rate November 14, 2003 08:07AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Brian:
Thank you for your reply. Certainly you can run your business anyway that you want, but I think you are making a big mistake.
The attitude you convey is not is a good business model. Just because you think you do not need insurance, etc does not mean that you should operate your business without putting in the appropriate costs that would reflect the real value and price of your service.
Why would you want to work for yourself and not have these benefits? You could work for another company and they would pay you a nice salary plus all the benefits I mention including a retirement program.
The reason I asked this question was to see if anyone was really operating their business including the benefits they should be getting.
If you pricing does not include these things then it is not a real reflection of what it really costs to operate a detail business of any kind.
Just one man's well intentioned thoughts about operating a legitimate detailing business.
Regards
Bud A</HTML>
buda
Thank you for your reply. Certainly you can run your business anyway that you want, but I think you are making a big mistake.
The attitude you convey is not is a good business model. Just because you think you do not need insurance, etc does not mean that you should operate your business without putting in the appropriate costs that would reflect the real value and price of your service.
Why would you want to work for yourself and not have these benefits? You could work for another company and they would pay you a nice salary plus all the benefits I mention including a retirement program.
The reason I asked this question was to see if anyone was really operating their business including the benefits they should be getting.
If you pricing does not include these things then it is not a real reflection of what it really costs to operate a detail business of any kind.
Just one man's well intentioned thoughts about operating a legitimate detailing business.
Regards
Bud A</HTML>
buda
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Re: What Expenses are in Your Hourly Rate November 14, 2003 08:07AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Brian:
Thank you for your reply. Certainly you can run your business anyway that you want, but I think you are making a big mistake.
The attitude you convey is not is a good business model. Just because you think you do not need insurance, etc does not mean that you should operate your business without putting in the appropriate costs that would reflect the real value and price of your service.
Why would you want to work for yourself and not have these benefits? You could work for another company and they would pay you a nice salary plus all the benefits I mention including a retirement program.
The reason I asked this question was to see if anyone was really operating their business including the benefits they should be getting.
If you pricing does not include these things then it is not a real reflection of what it really costs to operate a detail business of any kind.
Just one man's well intentioned thoughts about operating a legitimate detailing business.
Regards
Bud A</HTML>
buda
Thank you for your reply. Certainly you can run your business anyway that you want, but I think you are making a big mistake.
The attitude you convey is not is a good business model. Just because you think you do not need insurance, etc does not mean that you should operate your business without putting in the appropriate costs that would reflect the real value and price of your service.
Why would you want to work for yourself and not have these benefits? You could work for another company and they would pay you a nice salary plus all the benefits I mention including a retirement program.
The reason I asked this question was to see if anyone was really operating their business including the benefits they should be getting.
If you pricing does not include these things then it is not a real reflection of what it really costs to operate a detail business of any kind.
Just one man's well intentioned thoughts about operating a legitimate detailing business.
Regards
Bud A</HTML>
buda
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Re: What Expenses are in Your Hourly Rate November 14, 2003 09:28AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 1,838 |
<HTML>Bud:
I was talking about health inurance, not business insurance. Health insurance would be a waste of money for me now since I wouldn't use it. It's just money wasted. God forbit if I get in an accident, I'm covered by my auto insurance. Same with business insurance. If i fall off a boat and get hurt, I'm covered.
I had a choice to open an IRA but chose not to since the economy is too volitile and unpredictable right now. All profit goes directly to ING savings. I feel more comfortable making a guaranteed 2% than risking it all and losing everything for a 10% or more return. Just preference I guess.
However, I do make sure I take in enough hourly that if i get sick I wont be financially hurt.</HTML>
Take care,
Brian
Precision Auto & Marine
Learn to detail boats! Visit www.detailtheboat.com
I was talking about health inurance, not business insurance. Health insurance would be a waste of money for me now since I wouldn't use it. It's just money wasted. God forbit if I get in an accident, I'm covered by my auto insurance. Same with business insurance. If i fall off a boat and get hurt, I'm covered.
I had a choice to open an IRA but chose not to since the economy is too volitile and unpredictable right now. All profit goes directly to ING savings. I feel more comfortable making a guaranteed 2% than risking it all and losing everything for a 10% or more return. Just preference I guess.
However, I do make sure I take in enough hourly that if i get sick I wont be financially hurt.</HTML>
Take care,
Brian
Precision Auto & Marine
Learn to detail boats! Visit www.detailtheboat.com
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Re: What Expenses are in Your Hourly Rate November 14, 2003 09:30AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 1,838 |
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Re: What Expenses are in Your Hourly Rate November 14, 2003 04:28PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Brian:
No one ever expects to have an accident or get sick, that is the entire point of any insurance. Most Americans think they aren't going to die either.
What we are talking about here is not work what works for Brian A, but how you determine a legitimate hourly rate to operate your business.
If you worked for another company these are benefits they would give you. If you did not take them they would not increase your hourly pay. It is just part of the "cost of doing business."
Personally, I think you need to include them in your operational costs to get a clear and accurate picture of what it costs you to be in business and to give the customer a clear and accurate picture of the pricing for auto detailing.
Again, let us not belabor this issue between you and I. You have stated your thoughts. I would like to hear what others are doing on this issue or their opinion.
Regards
bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
No one ever expects to have an accident or get sick, that is the entire point of any insurance. Most Americans think they aren't going to die either.
What we are talking about here is not work what works for Brian A, but how you determine a legitimate hourly rate to operate your business.
If you worked for another company these are benefits they would give you. If you did not take them they would not increase your hourly pay. It is just part of the "cost of doing business."
Personally, I think you need to include them in your operational costs to get a clear and accurate picture of what it costs you to be in business and to give the customer a clear and accurate picture of the pricing for auto detailing.
Again, let us not belabor this issue between you and I. You have stated your thoughts. I would like to hear what others are doing on this issue or their opinion.
Regards
bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
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Re: What Expenses are in Your Hourly Rate November 15, 2003 01:04AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 751 |
<HTML>Monthly health insurance premium. Waiting to hear back from our insurance company right now. My wife gets family coverage through her employer (U.S Govt) right now at a very good rate. I just have to find out if I can go self employed and still get covered.
Sick leave . Not sure on this one , I guess you would have to work out an average figure of 8-10 days sick leave per year and build that in to your figure.
Bottom line is yes, all these will be built in to my costs. I have more information than I know what to do with right now with insurance, I have also had people tell me that I need "Key Man " insurance.
Rod. W , perhaps , with your insurance background, you could write a short article on what a small business really needs to have, rather than what some salesmen would like us to buy .
Brian, what would happen if you have an accident driving to work and couldnt work for 6 months or so, would your auto policy cover your medical costs and the money you lost through not being able to work ?
Jim.</HTML>
Sick leave . Not sure on this one , I guess you would have to work out an average figure of 8-10 days sick leave per year and build that in to your figure.
Bottom line is yes, all these will be built in to my costs. I have more information than I know what to do with right now with insurance, I have also had people tell me that I need "Key Man " insurance.
Rod. W , perhaps , with your insurance background, you could write a short article on what a small business really needs to have, rather than what some salesmen would like us to buy .
Brian, what would happen if you have an accident driving to work and couldnt work for 6 months or so, would your auto policy cover your medical costs and the money you lost through not being able to work ?
Jim.</HTML>
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Re: What Expenses are in Your Hourly Rate November 15, 2003 06:37AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 382 |
<HTML>Jim-I'll look into doing an article. Great idea!! I'll try to cover everything...fixed location, mobile op, one-man operation and multiple employees.
I don't know a lot about key man coverage. I believe that it covers for loss of biz or income in the event that a person you designate as a key employee is injured or dies. It pays the lost income for a specified period, say 30, 60 or 90 days or until he comes back to work or is replaced. There may be some limited coverage already available if you have a package or a BOP policy. Read you coverage form and check with your agent.
Brian...who would pay you if you were shovelling the snow at home and you slipped and wrenched your back or fell and broke your leg and couldn't work for 3 months? And no, your homeowner's policy doesn't provide medical payments coverage for you or your family members. That's only for guests injured on your premises and the limit is usually $1,000. Also, if you're hurt on the job, you don't have any coverage either. Med pay coverage is only for guests or employees that don't file a work comp claim. And you as the owner of the biz cannot make a claim under your work comp policy. Owners and officers are specifically excluded under the theory that they are more likely to have their own sufficient medical plan and the fact that the owner of the biz cannot be liable to his/herself. So, unless you can live on your savings for up to 6 months, you probably should have a medical policy, probably one that just covers emergency hospitilizations (major medical coverage)would be fine and a small disability to cover your car/house payments and minimal living expenses. Better safe that sorry, eh?</HTML>
I don't know a lot about key man coverage. I believe that it covers for loss of biz or income in the event that a person you designate as a key employee is injured or dies. It pays the lost income for a specified period, say 30, 60 or 90 days or until he comes back to work or is replaced. There may be some limited coverage already available if you have a package or a BOP policy. Read you coverage form and check with your agent.
Brian...who would pay you if you were shovelling the snow at home and you slipped and wrenched your back or fell and broke your leg and couldn't work for 3 months? And no, your homeowner's policy doesn't provide medical payments coverage for you or your family members. That's only for guests injured on your premises and the limit is usually $1,000. Also, if you're hurt on the job, you don't have any coverage either. Med pay coverage is only for guests or employees that don't file a work comp claim. And you as the owner of the biz cannot make a claim under your work comp policy. Owners and officers are specifically excluded under the theory that they are more likely to have their own sufficient medical plan and the fact that the owner of the biz cannot be liable to his/herself. So, unless you can live on your savings for up to 6 months, you probably should have a medical policy, probably one that just covers emergency hospitilizations (major medical coverage)would be fine and a small disability to cover your car/house payments and minimal living expenses. Better safe that sorry, eh?</HTML>
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Re: What Expenses are in Your Hourly Rate November 15, 2003 06:46AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Jim:
Nice reply, you seem to understand what I am talking about here. If you set up your business I urge you to calculate all these costs into your hourly rate so you know what it costs to run a business.
With regard to insurance it is not that hard. If you have a fixed location you need to purchase a Garage Owner's policy. With whatever liability coverage you feel you need to have. Your agent will discuss this with you.
You need to make a decision on how much coverage you want if the cars in the shop were all destroyed. Say you had a 4 bay shop and had four cars worth total about $125,000 and you had a fire and all four cars were destroyed. That is what I am talking about. I think I had about $80,000 coverage when I had my shops.
If employees are going to drive their cars on company business to pickup and deliver cars you need coverage for that. Although I would not do this. Either use the customer's car to drive them home or they can use a company vehicle to drive the customer home or bring them back to the shop. Just be sure you have enough liability coverage on your or the company's vehicle. You need to have coverage in case you get into an accident and the injured person finds out this was a work car.
You could buy insurance to provide income should you become injured and unable to work. This might not be a bad deal.
I am not certain you need Key Man insurance, but let the insurance agent explain to you what it is. Come back to me with what he says and if you have questions you don't want to ask him.
As for damage insurance on cars, you want only to insurance against a high claim, like if you damaged the paint and had to repaint the entire car at a cost of $3,000 or $4,000. You cannot afford the premiums for small claims like a broken antenna or mirror; a burn spot on the paint; cracked window, etc. You need to pay for these out of your pocket because if you m ake a claim your rates will sky rocket so you only insure for catastrophes.
Hope that helps.
Bud A</HTML>
buda
Nice reply, you seem to understand what I am talking about here. If you set up your business I urge you to calculate all these costs into your hourly rate so you know what it costs to run a business.
With regard to insurance it is not that hard. If you have a fixed location you need to purchase a Garage Owner's policy. With whatever liability coverage you feel you need to have. Your agent will discuss this with you.
You need to make a decision on how much coverage you want if the cars in the shop were all destroyed. Say you had a 4 bay shop and had four cars worth total about $125,000 and you had a fire and all four cars were destroyed. That is what I am talking about. I think I had about $80,000 coverage when I had my shops.
If employees are going to drive their cars on company business to pickup and deliver cars you need coverage for that. Although I would not do this. Either use the customer's car to drive them home or they can use a company vehicle to drive the customer home or bring them back to the shop. Just be sure you have enough liability coverage on your or the company's vehicle. You need to have coverage in case you get into an accident and the injured person finds out this was a work car.
You could buy insurance to provide income should you become injured and unable to work. This might not be a bad deal.
I am not certain you need Key Man insurance, but let the insurance agent explain to you what it is. Come back to me with what he says and if you have questions you don't want to ask him.
As for damage insurance on cars, you want only to insurance against a high claim, like if you damaged the paint and had to repaint the entire car at a cost of $3,000 or $4,000. You cannot afford the premiums for small claims like a broken antenna or mirror; a burn spot on the paint; cracked window, etc. You need to pay for these out of your pocket because if you m ake a claim your rates will sky rocket so you only insure for catastrophes.
Hope that helps.
Bud A</HTML>
buda
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Re: What Expenses are in Your Hourly Rate November 15, 2003 07:23AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Rod: CLARIFICATION ON WORKERS COMP INSURANCE FOR OWNERS
The law on this is that an owner can opt out of buying Workers Comp insurance for himself. Or, he can also decide to buy Workers Comp insurance for himself thru the business and he would be treated just like an employee should he be injured on the job.
If any of you want to get a good lesson on Workers Comp Insurance we have a video that is an hour presentation done by a person who has over 30 years experience in the field working for a state controlled insurance agency and then two different private insurance companies that provided Workers Comp Insurance.
His presentation is fantastic and filled with more valuable information than you can imagine. One thing you learn is that you do not mess with the Labor Commission in your State. They do not side, at all with employers, it is all about the employee.
How this came about is that the employees gave up the right to sue employers for job related injuries in exchange for the employer buying Workers Comp Insurance.
There are no ands, ifs, or buts about it. If you have employees, according to their definition, not yours you MUST have Workers Comp insurance. And, the way some detailers they to skirt the IRS and Workers Comp laws you would be in HUGE trouble if you got caught.
Most states have fines for violating the law of $10,000 to $25,000 plus so much per day for everyday you operated without the insurance. It is ugly, ugly if you get caught without insurance and an employee gets injured.
For example, if you hire a guy to paint your house and he is not a legitimate painting contractor with a business license (which you have to have to get Worker Comp insurance) and cannot show you a certificate of coverage or a certificate indicating he chose not to buy the insurance, AND HE GETS INJURED ON YOUR PROPERTY, guess what??? He is your employee and you must pay for the injury.
Those guys you are paying under the table or so much a car ARE NOT CONTRACTORS, they are employees and you will get burned if they get injured.
There is really a great deal of good information on this subject on that tape I urge you who are intersted in learning more to get it.
Regards
bud A</HTML>
buda
The law on this is that an owner can opt out of buying Workers Comp insurance for himself. Or, he can also decide to buy Workers Comp insurance for himself thru the business and he would be treated just like an employee should he be injured on the job.
If any of you want to get a good lesson on Workers Comp Insurance we have a video that is an hour presentation done by a person who has over 30 years experience in the field working for a state controlled insurance agency and then two different private insurance companies that provided Workers Comp Insurance.
His presentation is fantastic and filled with more valuable information than you can imagine. One thing you learn is that you do not mess with the Labor Commission in your State. They do not side, at all with employers, it is all about the employee.
How this came about is that the employees gave up the right to sue employers for job related injuries in exchange for the employer buying Workers Comp Insurance.
There are no ands, ifs, or buts about it. If you have employees, according to their definition, not yours you MUST have Workers Comp insurance. And, the way some detailers they to skirt the IRS and Workers Comp laws you would be in HUGE trouble if you got caught.
Most states have fines for violating the law of $10,000 to $25,000 plus so much per day for everyday you operated without the insurance. It is ugly, ugly if you get caught without insurance and an employee gets injured.
For example, if you hire a guy to paint your house and he is not a legitimate painting contractor with a business license (which you have to have to get Worker Comp insurance) and cannot show you a certificate of coverage or a certificate indicating he chose not to buy the insurance, AND HE GETS INJURED ON YOUR PROPERTY, guess what??? He is your employee and you must pay for the injury.
Those guys you are paying under the table or so much a car ARE NOT CONTRACTORS, they are employees and you will get burned if they get injured.
There is really a great deal of good information on this subject on that tape I urge you who are intersted in learning more to get it.
Regards
bud A</HTML>
buda
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Re: What Expenses are in Your Hourly Rate November 15, 2003 07:26AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 1,838 |
<HTML>I was told disability cover me for a 6 month period as long as I'm a tax-payer? I'm not saying health insurance is bad, I honestly don't have a need for it.
Health insurance covers missed work and wage? I didn't know that. Thought that was the governments or business insurances job.</HTML>
Take care,
Brian
Precision Auto & Marine
Learn to detail boats! Visit www.detailtheboat.com
Health insurance covers missed work and wage? I didn't know that. Thought that was the governments or business insurances job.</HTML>
Take care,
Brian
Precision Auto & Marine
Learn to detail boats! Visit www.detailtheboat.com
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Re: What Expenses are in Your Hourly Rate November 15, 2003 12:53PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 102 |
<HTML>Thanks Bud for another thought provoking thread. I will start by answering Buds questions and follow with some additional comments/suggestions. 1) Health Insurance: I do not carry health insurance simply because as retired military my health needs are taken care of by Uncle Sam plus my wifes company has a health insurance plan that covers me as well so in reality I am already double covered....this is nice because it gives me the opportunity to get second opinions at no additional charge and a choice of doctors, etc. 2) Sick Leave/Vacation: I do in fact include $1.00 an hour for these two based on 10 days vacation and 10 days sick leave per year. This of course would vary according to what someone desires to make per week. 3)Retirement: I already have my Military retirement each month but I still figure $1.25 per hour that goes in to a variety of investment programs. 4) Profit: my hourly profit actually works out to over 50% after all expenses including the ones discussed here. Suggestion/comments: 1) Bud, perhaps I do not understand something here, How could anyone survive on a 10% profit margin? 2) I would suggest that those who really want to succeed in this business take at least few basic business courses at a local community college 3) There are numerous insurance and investment companies available that will give out a wealth of information and suggestions for little if any $. You may actually have several customers that fall into this category and if asked may offer to assist at little or no cost. Yes of course they want to sell something but the results here will depend on how you have developed customer relations(a whole other subject) 4) Use the internet to learn and gain information(just as you use this site) Exp: wsbradio.com go to Clark Howard and check out his web site....awesome amount of info on insurance/investments and smart money management.</HTML>
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Re: What Expenses are in Your Hourly Rate November 15, 2003 03:16PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Ron:
Thanks for the comments and questions.
With regard to your comment on PROFIT, are we on the same page? I am referring NOT TO SALARY, but that money the business makes after you take your salary out.
Say you want to make $3500 per month from the business and you work40 hours per week, that would be about $20 per hour that you would have to add to labor cost to cover your salary.
The PROFIT, then is a percentage of gross sales that you want to put in the bank for a rainy day. For expansion; for new equipment; etc.
Does that make sense?
By the way, you are correct in advising fellow detailers that they need to get an accountant to help them put together a financial plan for their business so they know where they are going each month.
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
Thanks for the comments and questions.
With regard to your comment on PROFIT, are we on the same page? I am referring NOT TO SALARY, but that money the business makes after you take your salary out.
Say you want to make $3500 per month from the business and you work40 hours per week, that would be about $20 per hour that you would have to add to labor cost to cover your salary.
The PROFIT, then is a percentage of gross sales that you want to put in the bank for a rainy day. For expansion; for new equipment; etc.
Does that make sense?
By the way, you are correct in advising fellow detailers that they need to get an accountant to help them put together a financial plan for their business so they know where they are going each month.
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
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Re: What Expenses are in Your Hourly Rate November 19, 2003 04:54AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 117 |
<HTML>BUD ABRAHAM
MY EXPENSES FOR A POWER WASHING AND AUTO DETAILING BUSSINESS
PERCENTAGES ARE BASED ON TOTAL SALES
DIRECT COSTS
LABOR PART TIME 0%
CHEMICALS AND SUPPLIES 8%
FUEL FOR EQUIPMENT - GAS - KEROSENE 8%
INDIRECT COSTS
POWER WASHER PAYMENT 3%
TRUCK PAYMENT 6%
TRUCK EXPENSES 6%
MAINTENANCE & REPAIR 3%
RENT 4%
UTILITIES .05%
OFFICE SUPPLIES .01%
ADVERTISING 10%
PHONE 1%
INSURANCE 5%
ACCOUNT / LEGAL 5%
BASED ON $88400 GROSS SALES</HTML>
PRECISION POWER WASHING & AUTO DETAILING
MY EXPENSES FOR A POWER WASHING AND AUTO DETAILING BUSSINESS
PERCENTAGES ARE BASED ON TOTAL SALES
DIRECT COSTS
LABOR PART TIME 0%
CHEMICALS AND SUPPLIES 8%
FUEL FOR EQUIPMENT - GAS - KEROSENE 8%
INDIRECT COSTS
POWER WASHER PAYMENT 3%
TRUCK PAYMENT 6%
TRUCK EXPENSES 6%
MAINTENANCE & REPAIR 3%
RENT 4%
UTILITIES .05%
OFFICE SUPPLIES .01%
ADVERTISING 10%
PHONE 1%
INSURANCE 5%
ACCOUNT / LEGAL 5%
BASED ON $88400 GROSS SALES</HTML>
PRECISION POWER WASHING & AUTO DETAILING
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Re: What Expenses are in Your Hourly Rate November 19, 2003 05:34AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>thanks for the reply and sharing of info. So you cover your salary; profit; sick leave; vacation; health insurance; retirement premium all out of what is left over after expenses?
I would include them in my costs of operation so I can include them in my pricing
Thanks
Bud A</HTML>
buda
I would include them in my costs of operation so I can include them in my pricing
Thanks
Bud A</HTML>
buda
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Re: What Expenses are in Your Hourly Rate November 20, 2003 07:58PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 866 |
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