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Painted surface defects
Posted by Frank Canna
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Painted surface defects March 02, 2004 02:54PM |
<HTML>A couple of questions for all pro detailers.
1- Is there some kind of unwritten rule that says every detailer must be able to remove every single surface defect on every single vehicle?
2- What are some of the guidelines that you use to determine which surface defects can safely be removed and which ones are beyond help?
3- Does your customer fully understand what your capabilities are with regard to removing surface defects? Do you know your own capabilities?
For example, once something has penatrated the clear coat, does it really make sense to use a buffer and just keep grinding away at the clear coat in an attempt to remove the defect? Isn't there any consideration for the damage that is being done to the clear coat?
Personally, I would never go to the extremes that some detailers appearantly use on their customers' vehicles. I would much rather just explain to the customer that there is no easy way to remove such a defect without possibly causing harm to the painted finish of their car. This approach has worked for me since I started my detailing business in 1986.
What is your approach to handling surface defects?</HTML>
1- Is there some kind of unwritten rule that says every detailer must be able to remove every single surface defect on every single vehicle?
2- What are some of the guidelines that you use to determine which surface defects can safely be removed and which ones are beyond help?
3- Does your customer fully understand what your capabilities are with regard to removing surface defects? Do you know your own capabilities?
For example, once something has penatrated the clear coat, does it really make sense to use a buffer and just keep grinding away at the clear coat in an attempt to remove the defect? Isn't there any consideration for the damage that is being done to the clear coat?
Personally, I would never go to the extremes that some detailers appearantly use on their customers' vehicles. I would much rather just explain to the customer that there is no easy way to remove such a defect without possibly causing harm to the painted finish of their car. This approach has worked for me since I started my detailing business in 1986.
What is your approach to handling surface defects?</HTML>
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Re: Painted surface defects March 02, 2004 03:27PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 210 |
<HTML>Frank,
I use the same approach as you do. I will do my best to safely remove paint imperfections using my different arsonal of products, but ultimatley, I will never cross that line of doing whatever it takes to do this. The treatment can be much worse than the cure, and the end result could be disasterous. If I can not completely remove these imperfections, I explain it to the customer and they always understand the situation. If I can feel the imperfection with my fingernail, I will attempt to improve the situation, but not cure it. If a customer is looking for absolute perfection at the expense of possible damage to the vehicle, I will suggest that they do their business elsewhere.</HTML>
I use the same approach as you do. I will do my best to safely remove paint imperfections using my different arsonal of products, but ultimatley, I will never cross that line of doing whatever it takes to do this. The treatment can be much worse than the cure, and the end result could be disasterous. If I can not completely remove these imperfections, I explain it to the customer and they always understand the situation. If I can feel the imperfection with my fingernail, I will attempt to improve the situation, but not cure it. If a customer is looking for absolute perfection at the expense of possible damage to the vehicle, I will suggest that they do their business elsewhere.</HTML>
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Re: Painted surface defects March 02, 2004 08:07PM |
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Re: Painted surface defects March 02, 2004 11:13PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 1,838 |
<HTML>Frank,
Detailers should be able to remove everyday defect such as water spots, acid rain marks, oxidation, overspray, mild orange peel and minor scratches.
Wet sanding is the main key to the removal of most defects. Some defects will be to far gone and will need refinishing such as deep scratches (ones you can feel). For the feel scratches, they can be faded but not completely removed without comprimising the clear coat.
Clearcoat delamination and clearcoat failure is out of the detailer's hands, unless your Rod W! He'll just whip out his arsenal of refinishing products and equipment.
Moisture trapped under the clear from transit coating can be easily removed with a heat gun and rubbing alcohol. That is a common paint defect.</HTML>
Take care,
Brian
Precision Auto & Marine
Learn to detail boats! Visit www.detailtheboat.com
Detailers should be able to remove everyday defect such as water spots, acid rain marks, oxidation, overspray, mild orange peel and minor scratches.
Wet sanding is the main key to the removal of most defects. Some defects will be to far gone and will need refinishing such as deep scratches (ones you can feel). For the feel scratches, they can be faded but not completely removed without comprimising the clear coat.
Clearcoat delamination and clearcoat failure is out of the detailer's hands, unless your Rod W! He'll just whip out his arsenal of refinishing products and equipment.
Moisture trapped under the clear from transit coating can be easily removed with a heat gun and rubbing alcohol. That is a common paint defect.</HTML>
Take care,
Brian
Precision Auto & Marine
Learn to detail boats! Visit www.detailtheboat.com
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Re: Painted surface defects March 02, 2004 11:16PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 1,838 |
<HTML>Sorry, forgot the othe 2 questions.
Yes, I know my capabilities and my customer also knows what I can do after I look at the car. If I say I may have a problem removing a defect and they later see that I completely removed it, that usually makes them happier with the service.
For what I can't remove, it's just a matter of observation by feeling the scratch. A lot of times I do a test spot for oxidation to show the customer what I can do.</HTML>
Take care,
Brian
Precision Auto & Marine
Learn to detail boats! Visit www.detailtheboat.com
Yes, I know my capabilities and my customer also knows what I can do after I look at the car. If I say I may have a problem removing a defect and they later see that I completely removed it, that usually makes them happier with the service.
For what I can't remove, it's just a matter of observation by feeling the scratch. A lot of times I do a test spot for oxidation to show the customer what I can do.</HTML>
Take care,
Brian
Precision Auto & Marine
Learn to detail boats! Visit www.detailtheboat.com
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Re: Painted surface defects March 03, 2004 01:59AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 751 |
<HTML>Frank, good questions.
1/ Not that I am aware of . Removing every single defect could be both damaging to the painted surface and to your relationship with the customer. Rremoving too much clear coat to correct a problem will just lead to early clear coat failure and an irate customer further down the line.
2/ What we should be doing is using a paint gauge to measure the total depth of the paint before buffing. Once you reach the .5 mil mark you shouldnt go any further. If the acid rain marks or scratches are deeper than this , then they need to be repaired by a paint shop.
3/ Having wet sanded through the clear coat a couple of times , yes, I know better now than to over estimate my capabilities.
You are providing your customer a much better service by telling them that the defect can not be safely removed , and advising them that a painted repair is needed, than you are by reducing the clear coat to a dangerously low level in order to impress them with your skills.
Jim.</HTML>
1/ Not that I am aware of . Removing every single defect could be both damaging to the painted surface and to your relationship with the customer. Rremoving too much clear coat to correct a problem will just lead to early clear coat failure and an irate customer further down the line.
2/ What we should be doing is using a paint gauge to measure the total depth of the paint before buffing. Once you reach the .5 mil mark you shouldnt go any further. If the acid rain marks or scratches are deeper than this , then they need to be repaired by a paint shop.
3/ Having wet sanded through the clear coat a couple of times , yes, I know better now than to over estimate my capabilities.
You are providing your customer a much better service by telling them that the defect can not be safely removed , and advising them that a painted repair is needed, than you are by reducing the clear coat to a dangerously low level in order to impress them with your skills.
Jim.</HTML>
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Re: Painted surface defects March 03, 2004 03:31AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 382 |
<HTML>Good questions & good answers!
1. No. Absolutely not. First, I'm once bitten, twice shy. In the early days of my paint t/u biz, I tried to be all things to all people. It can't be done. Furthermore, you reach a point of diminishing returns rather quickly. That's the point where you've spent too much time on a job and you start losing money and your frustration grows. Now, if I know I can't do it, I'll tell the customer just that & why. If I can do something with it, I'll tell the customer it won't be perfect, just improved (underpromise, overdeliver) and usually get high compliments. Most owners are happy if a defect can be touched up and it looks 60-80% better than it did. Especially if I'm saving them hundreds or thousands of $$.
2. If it requires wetsanding & it's widespread, then I'll send them to the body shop. Because, the solids in c/c that provide it's paint protecting & UV capabilities all settle in the upper 1/3 of the c/c. You can sand through that 1/3 very quickly using 1500 or 2000 grit paper. You won't break the c/c, but you'll remove it's protective properties. Then, within 6 months to 1 year, the finish will have faded blotches on it where you wetsanded. Not good. Your insurance company will not be happy having to pay for repainting an entire car. And if it's just a panel, you won't be happy paying a few hundie to repaint it.
3. Having the paint t/u system & background, I have a lot of different compounds, solvents & systems at my disposal that most detailers don't carry with them, so I can usually find something to remove most of the typical defects we see and some not so typical stuff as well. If I'm unfamiliar with something, I'll advise the customer I'll give it a try, but no promises. I always, always underpromise and usually overdeliver. If I say I can remove 60-80% & I remove 90-100%, I'm a hero. If I remove 80%, I'm a great guy. If I remove 60%, I'm a man of my word. Anything less, I gave it my best shot. The one thing about the recon/detailing biz that I learned in a big hurry was that you can be a peacock on Monday and a featherduster by Friday if you don't know what you or your products are capable of doing.</HTML>
Shine On!
Rod Wesley
Touch Up 'N' Go!
Auto & Marine Appearance Center
We take your car from Rough to Buff!
Visit our website at: www.touchupngo.com
1. No. Absolutely not. First, I'm once bitten, twice shy. In the early days of my paint t/u biz, I tried to be all things to all people. It can't be done. Furthermore, you reach a point of diminishing returns rather quickly. That's the point where you've spent too much time on a job and you start losing money and your frustration grows. Now, if I know I can't do it, I'll tell the customer just that & why. If I can do something with it, I'll tell the customer it won't be perfect, just improved (underpromise, overdeliver) and usually get high compliments. Most owners are happy if a defect can be touched up and it looks 60-80% better than it did. Especially if I'm saving them hundreds or thousands of $$.
2. If it requires wetsanding & it's widespread, then I'll send them to the body shop. Because, the solids in c/c that provide it's paint protecting & UV capabilities all settle in the upper 1/3 of the c/c. You can sand through that 1/3 very quickly using 1500 or 2000 grit paper. You won't break the c/c, but you'll remove it's protective properties. Then, within 6 months to 1 year, the finish will have faded blotches on it where you wetsanded. Not good. Your insurance company will not be happy having to pay for repainting an entire car. And if it's just a panel, you won't be happy paying a few hundie to repaint it.
3. Having the paint t/u system & background, I have a lot of different compounds, solvents & systems at my disposal that most detailers don't carry with them, so I can usually find something to remove most of the typical defects we see and some not so typical stuff as well. If I'm unfamiliar with something, I'll advise the customer I'll give it a try, but no promises. I always, always underpromise and usually overdeliver. If I say I can remove 60-80% & I remove 90-100%, I'm a hero. If I remove 80%, I'm a great guy. If I remove 60%, I'm a man of my word. Anything less, I gave it my best shot. The one thing about the recon/detailing biz that I learned in a big hurry was that you can be a peacock on Monday and a featherduster by Friday if you don't know what you or your products are capable of doing.</HTML>
Shine On!
Rod Wesley
Touch Up 'N' Go!
Auto & Marine Appearance Center
We take your car from Rough to Buff!
Visit our website at: www.touchupngo.com
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Re: Painted surface defects March 03, 2004 04:15AM |
<HTML> "You are providing your customer a much better service by telling them that the defect can not be safely removed , and advising them that a painted repair is needed, than you are by reducing the clear coat to a dangerously low level in order to impress them with your skills."
Jim, very good advice. Worth repeating!</HTML>
Jim, very good advice. Worth repeating!</HTML>
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Re: Painted surface defects March 03, 2004 04:21AM |
<HTML>"In the early days of my paint t/u biz, I tried to be all things to all people. It can't be done. Furthermore, you reach a point of diminishing returns rather quickly. That's the point where you've spent too much time on a job and you start losing money and your frustration grows. Now, if I know I can't do it, I'll tell the customer just that & why. If I can do something with it, I'll tell the customer it won't be perfect, just improved (underpromise, overdeliver) and usually get high compliments. Most owners are happy if a defect can be touched up and it looks 60-80% better than it did. Especially if I'm saving them hundreds or thousands of $$."
Rod W,
This is the exact same thought process that I like to use when it comes to dealing with surface defects, especially the part about "underpromise and overdeliver".</HTML>
Rod W,
This is the exact same thought process that I like to use when it comes to dealing with surface defects, especially the part about "underpromise and overdeliver".</HTML>
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Re: Painted surface defects March 03, 2004 06:09AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 866 |
<HTML>If I can remove it, I remove it. I have many many hours of colorsanding and buffing cars. I sand out most defects. I know right away if I can do it or not and most of the time I can.
I rather sand something then lightly buff it to a brilliant shine than "grind" on it with a buff pad without sandingg it first and creating excisive heat to the finish.</HTML>
-----------------------------------------------------
Plays in the rain --- www.SuperiorShineDetailing.com
I rather sand something then lightly buff it to a brilliant shine than "grind" on it with a buff pad without sandingg it first and creating excisive heat to the finish.</HTML>
-----------------------------------------------------
Plays in the rain --- www.SuperiorShineDetailing.com
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Re: Painted surface defects March 03, 2004 06:01PM |
<HTML>In the Tech Tips section of our website are photos with text explainations that can be printed out for use when dealing with paint issues of a customers vehicle.
Many detailers utilize these to explain to their customers why they may not be able to correct a concern or how they can be resolved.
This eases the way for the detailer to substansiate his fees and processes.
ketch</HTML>
Many detailers utilize these to explain to their customers why they may not be able to correct a concern or how they can be resolved.
This eases the way for the detailer to substansiate his fees and processes.
ketch</HTML>
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Re: Painted surface defects March 04, 2004 05:21AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 382 |
<HTML>Ketch-Great job on that site, especially the defects & photos. I'll definitely print out a set of those & keep it in my shop manual. That's valuable info & it can save people a lot of headaches if they can look at a defect they may not be familiar with, match it up to a pic to identify & then know right away if they can or can't help the situation & advise the owner accordingly.
The Dupont/Standox site has some great info on paint defects mostly geared toward painters, but detailers can use it to help recognize hack jobs & know if they can help. You can check this info out at:
[www.standoxna.com]
Another site that's just packed with paint related info on problems & solutions is:
[www.ppg.com]
Between these two sites & Ketch's site, I don't think there's a paint problem & solution that's not dealt with. Check them out. These sites are gold!!</HTML>
Shine On!
Rod Wesley
Touch Up 'N' Go!
Auto & Marine Appearance Center
We take your car from Rough to Buff!
Visit our website at: www.touchupngo.com
The Dupont/Standox site has some great info on paint defects mostly geared toward painters, but detailers can use it to help recognize hack jobs & know if they can help. You can check this info out at:
[www.standoxna.com]
Another site that's just packed with paint related info on problems & solutions is:
[www.ppg.com]
Between these two sites & Ketch's site, I don't think there's a paint problem & solution that's not dealt with. Check them out. These sites are gold!!</HTML>
Shine On!
Rod Wesley
Touch Up 'N' Go!
Auto & Marine Appearance Center
We take your car from Rough to Buff!
Visit our website at: www.touchupngo.com
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Re: Painted surface defects March 04, 2004 07:17AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 74 |
<HTML>It all depends on what type of defects we are talkng about and how deep they are in the clear coat. If we are talking about light scratches, stains, or oxidation that can be removed with a light or medium duty compound, I see no reason to tell the customer they can't be removed. That's what compounds and high speed buffers were created for.
If we are talking about repeated buffing of the same areas, heavy compounding, or wet sanding to get out deep defects then it's a different story. In that case I think it's best to avoid further damage to the clear coat.
I am curious... are you suggesting that one should never use a compound in any circumstance to remove any type of defect?</HTML>
If we are talking about repeated buffing of the same areas, heavy compounding, or wet sanding to get out deep defects then it's a different story. In that case I think it's best to avoid further damage to the clear coat.
I am curious... are you suggesting that one should never use a compound in any circumstance to remove any type of defect?</HTML>
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Re: Painted surface defects March 05, 2004 12:59AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 382 |
<HTML>No. I think any professional detailer has to know how to recognize paint defects and know his and his chemicals' limitations. He also should be able to determine which scratches can be removed by buffing & which ones cannot. And if he does touch up painting, he must know how to what degree his paint system and his skill as a painter will improve the defect. And he must be sure to tell the customer exactly what to expect and let the customer decide if he/she wants the work done.
Of course, most of this ability will come with continuing study and experience. Another measure of a true professional is the ability to find out about a problem/condition he's not familiar with and provide the solution for his client. This forum is outsatanding for that and the education and information received here is as valuable as what one will learn at any detailing school and at a great price!!!</HTML>
Shine On!
Rod Wesley
Touch Up 'N' Go!
Auto & Marine Appearance Center
We take your car from Rough to Buff!
Visit our website at: www.touchupngo.com
Of course, most of this ability will come with continuing study and experience. Another measure of a true professional is the ability to find out about a problem/condition he's not familiar with and provide the solution for his client. This forum is outsatanding for that and the education and information received here is as valuable as what one will learn at any detailing school and at a great price!!!</HTML>
Shine On!
Rod Wesley
Touch Up 'N' Go!
Auto & Marine Appearance Center
We take your car from Rough to Buff!
Visit our website at: www.touchupngo.com
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