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High speed buffers
Posted by J. Oare
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High speed buffers April 16, 2004 02:00PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 2 |
<HTML>Is there any difference between a buffer and a polisher? I do not have any experience yet with high speed buffers/polishers, but I want to get one to practice with on my own vehicles for a while before I start any customer work. If I buy a high speed buffer, and use it on the lowest setting, is there still a big chance in burning the paint? Any suggestions on what to buy to start out with, that will still produce a nice shine would be great. Thanks.</HTML>
Cherokee
Cherokee
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Re: High speed buffers April 16, 2004 03:28PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>There is a great deal of terminology confusion in the detailing business. If I may, I will offer you my definitions of terms and products.
Buffer - a high speed rotary tool used to both correct paint finish problems as well as swirl remove and polish.
Polisher - used often to refer to a buffer, that is, a high speed rotary tool.
When you want to buff; compound or cut with a rotary tool you would use either a wool; poly/wool or foam cutting pad at about 1800 to 2000RPM, and some type of compound, how aggressive, depending on condition of paint and correct you want to make.
When you want to swirl remove or polish you use a high speed rotary tool at about 1300RPM and with a sheepskin or foam polishing or finishing pad. You would use a swirl remover/polish.
Orbital or D/A tool - this is a vibrating tool that some say you can buff and polish with, but I disagree because you do not get the friction obtained with a high speed rotary tool. Some say you can remove swirls, but experts in the industry say that swirls put in with a buffer must be removed with a buffer. I agree. So an orbital or D/A is NOT a buffer nor is it a polisher. It is only an APPLICATOR of wax or paint sealant.
Hope that helps you understand the terminology a bit better. Remember this is not the gospel, it is only my personal way of distinguishing chemicals; tools and pads.
Regards
bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
Buffer - a high speed rotary tool used to both correct paint finish problems as well as swirl remove and polish.
Polisher - used often to refer to a buffer, that is, a high speed rotary tool.
When you want to buff; compound or cut with a rotary tool you would use either a wool; poly/wool or foam cutting pad at about 1800 to 2000RPM, and some type of compound, how aggressive, depending on condition of paint and correct you want to make.
When you want to swirl remove or polish you use a high speed rotary tool at about 1300RPM and with a sheepskin or foam polishing or finishing pad. You would use a swirl remover/polish.
Orbital or D/A tool - this is a vibrating tool that some say you can buff and polish with, but I disagree because you do not get the friction obtained with a high speed rotary tool. Some say you can remove swirls, but experts in the industry say that swirls put in with a buffer must be removed with a buffer. I agree. So an orbital or D/A is NOT a buffer nor is it a polisher. It is only an APPLICATOR of wax or paint sealant.
Hope that helps you understand the terminology a bit better. Remember this is not the gospel, it is only my personal way of distinguishing chemicals; tools and pads.
Regards
bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
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Re: High speed buffers April 17, 2004 12:01AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 27 |
<HTML>I have to disagree with bud on this regarding the d/a, if we are talking orbital such as what you buy at sears I do agree, but the D/A can remove swirls. I do it all the time. It can will and does polish very well. Now I am not saying it can do what a rotary does because it cant but it is capable of polishing light scratches, light buffer swirls and polishing the paint.
Bud have you PERSONALLY used a d/a and actually gave it a chance to do the job or is your information second hand. I dont mean this as a slam but an honest question. I will be more than happy to demonstrate to you what it can do anytime you are in my area. ( southern california ) I have even removed wet sanding marks with the d/a, believe it or not I have. Its definatly not my choice of tools for such a job BUT it can be done with the right product and pad, pressure and patience.</HTML>
Bud have you PERSONALLY used a d/a and actually gave it a chance to do the job or is your information second hand. I dont mean this as a slam but an honest question. I will be more than happy to demonstrate to you what it can do anytime you are in my area. ( southern california ) I have even removed wet sanding marks with the d/a, believe it or not I have. Its definatly not my choice of tools for such a job BUT it can be done with the right product and pad, pressure and patience.</HTML>
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Re: High speed buffers April 17, 2004 12:58AM |
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Re: High speed buffers April 17, 2004 02:22AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 27 |
<HTML>Wow that was a sad reply. why pull out the buffer when its not needed? Why use any tool for the job except the one best suited for the job at hand? Do you use a rotary to apply wax? To do a light polish ? I just dont understand a closed minded responce like that.
Do you think you cant time and cost effectivly remove a swirl with a d/a? I do it all the time and I can guarantee I am very profecient with a rotary, wet sanding and all other aspects of automotive finishes.
There is another thread about being open minded, take a look at it.</HTML>
Do you think you cant time and cost effectivly remove a swirl with a d/a? I do it all the time and I can guarantee I am very profecient with a rotary, wet sanding and all other aspects of automotive finishes.
There is another thread about being open minded, take a look at it.</HTML>
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Re: High speed buffers April 17, 2004 03:55AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 382 |
<HTML>I have to agree with 2r's on this one. I too have removed light c/c scratches & swirls with my Cyclo & polishing system. And it didn't take me that long. Now I will say the Cyclo is limited in it's scratch removing capabilities and I use my rotary often as well, but if the damage is light to medium, I'll always start out with my Cyclo to see what I can do. It only takes a couple of minutes to check and if it's not making the correction, I'll go to the rotary. But my philosophy on buffing is why use a sledge hammer to kill a mosquito?
I know for a fact that scratches can be removed with my Cyclo because I've done it on my black truck as well as numerous clients' vehicles. As for polishing & sealing a car with light c/c scratches, I'll go head-to-head with a rotary 24/7 and get done in about half the time.
As for not being able to burn through paint with a DA, I was the guy that proved that theory was bogus, lol!! I had a Porsche 996 that had a deep, 3" scratch in the right 1/4. I took my most agressive pad (a yellow pad with micro cutting fibers on it) and my most agressive compound for the Cyclo and I just put one pad and the Cyclo. Then, I just put it over the scratch and leaned on it. My intention was to level down the scratch as much as possible so I could fill the scratch with paint, blend it & buff it. Well, after a about 2-3 minutes of running the Cyclo, I took it away from the car and much to my absolute horror, there was a big round white spot the size of my buffing pad. I had taken the paint off clear down to the primer!!! I ended up having to repaint the whole 1/4 panel which worked out to be about $700 in work. The color was Polarsilber and I couldn't spot blend it, so I had to mask off the whole car & paint the 1/4. It took me 1.5 days to do it.
Talk about a rookie mistake and learning a big lesson (like knowing when to say no!!) from it!!!
But since that time, I've come to really know the capabilities and limitations of my Cyclo. I just love that thing, but I am considering getting a PC7424 or that new dual buffer Makita. I'm leaning toward the PC because I need something smaller to agitate shampoo into carpets & for quick spot polishing/buffing.
Oh well...enough of my ramblings. I just wanted to make the point that the more I work & experiment with your equipment, the more I realize that these machines (buffers, polishers, etc.) are very efficient and durable and can be pushed beyond limits that "experts" claim to exist and limit them. So, until you've tried pushing the limits yourself and learning your and the machine's or product's limitations, don't take someone else's word as gospel.</HTML>
Shine On!
Rod Wesley
Touch Up 'N' Go!
Auto & Marine Appearance Center
We take your car from Rough to Buff!
Visit our website at: www.touchupngo.com
I know for a fact that scratches can be removed with my Cyclo because I've done it on my black truck as well as numerous clients' vehicles. As for polishing & sealing a car with light c/c scratches, I'll go head-to-head with a rotary 24/7 and get done in about half the time.
As for not being able to burn through paint with a DA, I was the guy that proved that theory was bogus, lol!! I had a Porsche 996 that had a deep, 3" scratch in the right 1/4. I took my most agressive pad (a yellow pad with micro cutting fibers on it) and my most agressive compound for the Cyclo and I just put one pad and the Cyclo. Then, I just put it over the scratch and leaned on it. My intention was to level down the scratch as much as possible so I could fill the scratch with paint, blend it & buff it. Well, after a about 2-3 minutes of running the Cyclo, I took it away from the car and much to my absolute horror, there was a big round white spot the size of my buffing pad. I had taken the paint off clear down to the primer!!! I ended up having to repaint the whole 1/4 panel which worked out to be about $700 in work. The color was Polarsilber and I couldn't spot blend it, so I had to mask off the whole car & paint the 1/4. It took me 1.5 days to do it.
Talk about a rookie mistake and learning a big lesson (like knowing when to say no!!) from it!!!
But since that time, I've come to really know the capabilities and limitations of my Cyclo. I just love that thing, but I am considering getting a PC7424 or that new dual buffer Makita. I'm leaning toward the PC because I need something smaller to agitate shampoo into carpets & for quick spot polishing/buffing.
Oh well...enough of my ramblings. I just wanted to make the point that the more I work & experiment with your equipment, the more I realize that these machines (buffers, polishers, etc.) are very efficient and durable and can be pushed beyond limits that "experts" claim to exist and limit them. So, until you've tried pushing the limits yourself and learning your and the machine's or product's limitations, don't take someone else's word as gospel.</HTML>
Shine On!
Rod Wesley
Touch Up 'N' Go!
Auto & Marine Appearance Center
We take your car from Rough to Buff!
Visit our website at: www.touchupngo.com
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Re: High speed buffers April 17, 2004 03:57AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>You are absolutely correct, do not use a rotary buffer where it is not needed.
However, most of the experts I have spoken to in the industry as well as my own experience tell me this:
1. If you have to make a correction in a paint finish you use a rotary buffer; cutting pad and a specific grit compound relative to the problem to be corrected.
2. Having used a cutting pad and compound you will have buffer swirls put in by a rotary buffer. Therefore in order to remove these swirls, and not FILL them you need to use the same rotary buffer with a polishing pad and a swirl remover, not FILLER to remove them.
3. The final step is protection with wax or paint sealant and you can use an orbital to do this.
Agreed you do not use a buffer to put on wax or sealant, but there are thousands of detailers all over the world that do just that, buff wax on to cover up or fill in the swirls.
All I am saying to you is that if you put buffer swirls in with a buffer you need to take them out with a buffer. If your DA will fill them and that is acceptable to you. so be it. Who am I to tell you that is wrong. But filling and removing are two different things.
Regards
Bud A</HTML>
buda
However, most of the experts I have spoken to in the industry as well as my own experience tell me this:
1. If you have to make a correction in a paint finish you use a rotary buffer; cutting pad and a specific grit compound relative to the problem to be corrected.
2. Having used a cutting pad and compound you will have buffer swirls put in by a rotary buffer. Therefore in order to remove these swirls, and not FILL them you need to use the same rotary buffer with a polishing pad and a swirl remover, not FILLER to remove them.
3. The final step is protection with wax or paint sealant and you can use an orbital to do this.
Agreed you do not use a buffer to put on wax or sealant, but there are thousands of detailers all over the world that do just that, buff wax on to cover up or fill in the swirls.
All I am saying to you is that if you put buffer swirls in with a buffer you need to take them out with a buffer. If your DA will fill them and that is acceptable to you. so be it. Who am I to tell you that is wrong. But filling and removing are two different things.
Regards
Bud A</HTML>
buda
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Re: High speed buffers April 17, 2004 04:20AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 382 |
<HTML>I agree with you Bud. Filling and removing are different. And for the most part, the rotary is best suited for removing. However, lighter scratches/swirls can be removed with an orbital with the right pad/compound combination.
The orbital is limited for removal work, so I guess it just comes down to personal preference and whatever the operator is used to as nothing's etched in stone. However, for anything other than light scratches, a rotary is the only tool to remove them.
And for the record, I don't advocate filling scratches, I prefer to remove them. But, you'd be surprised how many high end car owners are aware of this and absolutely insist that a buffer is never used on their car for fear of damaging the finish and insist on just filliing the scratches with an orbital and having it re-done once/month.</HTML>
Shine On!
Rod Wesley
Touch Up 'N' Go!
Auto & Marine Appearance Center
We take your car from Rough to Buff!
Visit our website at: www.touchupngo.com
The orbital is limited for removal work, so I guess it just comes down to personal preference and whatever the operator is used to as nothing's etched in stone. However, for anything other than light scratches, a rotary is the only tool to remove them.
And for the record, I don't advocate filling scratches, I prefer to remove them. But, you'd be surprised how many high end car owners are aware of this and absolutely insist that a buffer is never used on their car for fear of damaging the finish and insist on just filliing the scratches with an orbital and having it re-done once/month.</HTML>
Shine On!
Rod Wesley
Touch Up 'N' Go!
Auto & Marine Appearance Center
We take your car from Rough to Buff!
Visit our website at: www.touchupngo.com
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