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SALTING SOAP
Posted by Bud Abraham
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SALTING SOAP July 07, 2004 05:47PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
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Re: SALTING SOAP July 07, 2004 08:14PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 243 |
<HTML>Buda, we use to seperate the soap that we used in making road oils and other Asphaltic Emulsions. When ever we had a problem come up with the State of Ky/Wva/Oh. They wanted the emulsion seperated to evaluate, all of the ingredients. We made a Brine solution to seperate the Soap, from the rest of the emulsion. This reaction let the Soap harden and float to the top on Both Cationic,and Anionic emulsions. I don't know know if this helps you are not,and might not even be close to what you are asking. This is what I know of Salting Soap......... :-) Brandy!</HTML>
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Re: SALTING SOAP July 07, 2004 09:41PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 237 |
<HTML>Ah! Then its probably has nothing to do with what my grandparents generation used to do?
My Nan and Great Aunt Lilly used to put salt on a bar of soap for suff like cleaning oily hands and washing your hands after peeling onions... Nan also used salt for cleaning the tiolet and around the taps and sink. Abrasive I guess? Actually, I thnk my mum still does it after peeling onions.
I think that back in those days, cleaning products wern't quite as advanced as they are now, and what there war were in short supply during the war and in the years after.</HTML>
My Nan and Great Aunt Lilly used to put salt on a bar of soap for suff like cleaning oily hands and washing your hands after peeling onions... Nan also used salt for cleaning the tiolet and around the taps and sink. Abrasive I guess? Actually, I thnk my mum still does it after peeling onions.
I think that back in those days, cleaning products wern't quite as advanced as they are now, and what there war were in short supply during the war and in the years after.</HTML>
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Re: SALTING SOAP July 08, 2004 02:31PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Can see that this subject has not excited too many of you, but it is a most important issue.
To give you a clue about what this is I will ask you to contact your chemical supplier and ask them, "Do you salt your shampoo or degreasers?"
See what their reaction will be.
Regards
Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS</HTML>
buda
To give you a clue about what this is I will ask you to contact your chemical supplier and ask them, "Do you salt your shampoo or degreasers?"
See what their reaction will be.
Regards
Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS</HTML>
buda
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Re: SALTING SOAP July 08, 2004 03:06PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 585 |
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Question for Grumpie to help us with!Re: SALTING SOAP July 08, 2004 06:18PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 243 |
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Re: Question for Grumpie to help us with!Re: SALTING SOAP July 08, 2004 07:52PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 499 |
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Re: Question for Grumpie to help us with!Re: SALTING SOAP July 08, 2004 08:49PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Scott:
You are absolutely correct.
This is a practice by some unscrupulous chemical companies and/or distributors where they might take a 55 galllon drum of shampoo, say and divide it evenly into four drums; fill the drums with water and add salt to thicken the product and you have 4 - 55 gallon drums of shampoo, thereby quadruplying your profit.
The reason I posted this was to make detailers aware of what is done in the industry and to give you some protection.
If you have a mind to, you can taste the chemical and tell if it is "salted" by determining if it tastes "salty."
If anyone would know, I knew it would be you, Scott. Good job.
Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS</HTML>
buda
You are absolutely correct.
This is a practice by some unscrupulous chemical companies and/or distributors where they might take a 55 galllon drum of shampoo, say and divide it evenly into four drums; fill the drums with water and add salt to thicken the product and you have 4 - 55 gallon drums of shampoo, thereby quadruplying your profit.
The reason I posted this was to make detailers aware of what is done in the industry and to give you some protection.
If you have a mind to, you can taste the chemical and tell if it is "salted" by determining if it tastes "salty."
If anyone would know, I knew it would be you, Scott. Good job.
Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS</HTML>
buda
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Re: Question for Buda July 08, 2004 10:32PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 243 |
<HTML>Ok Bud, now that you have improved our intelligence on how us Detailers can get really screwed on purchasing what we would think to be a Super Concentrated Chemical, so we can cut it with water,when its already been cut with Brine to make the thicker or a heavier emulsion. Without calling my friends at the Refinery Lab, what other method can we use with out a taste test. Better yet , should we demand a MSDS sheet on each Shampoo or Car Washing Soap,and or Degreaser showing HCL or Sodium Chloride, that we are paying for. What are the rest of the ingredients that we can get screwed by. I know your alls answer is to stay with a trust worthy vendor,but how can you tell, unless you can see what the purity of the Chemical is that you are purchasing............. Brandy ! The taste test can maybe tell you that, yes there is salt present , but once again, how much,and why am I buying it??????????.......</HTML>
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Re: Question for Scotty/Bud July 08, 2004 10:52PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 243 |
<HTML>Scotty, you answer was very enlightning,is this some of the stuff you have learned the hard way, or got from a supplier, or did/does Grumpie cover these types of materials in his class room. I've like most, probably learned more the hard way, that I ever did a classroom. This was a very good mind Jogger Bud. It reminded me of how some of our Emulsion customers would re cut the emulsion with Brine when their inventory got low,enlieu of buying more on test product from the Refinery. State DOT's Watch Dogs would sometimes catch them up in the dishonesty. Then pull their certification,shut down a highway repair job,and make it hard as hell to get back into business. Maybe these kinds of dishonest efforts can be monitored by the Detailers Association, or at least we Detailers talking about it thru Phone/Emailing to get the message out to Association Members. Bud is there a standard for detailing chemicals , or just make it good enough to get by with nothing extra.I probably already know that answer,but just asking anyway.......Thanks for the very good question concerning the Salting of Soap! we probably as business people need more of these types of questions asked of us....:-) Brandy!</HTML>
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Re: Question for Scotty/Bud July 08, 2004 11:40PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Brandy:
At this point I am not sure how you can really tell if a water based chemical has been "salted."
The MSDS is not an answer since the MSDS only presents the ingredients that are hazardous, not all ingredients.
In any case, if a chemical supplier is "salting" I doubt whether they would reveal this on any sheet of paper.
Kind of like, in the old days when dealers "turned speedometers back" and put sawdust in the rearends. You remember that don't you?
You just have to deal with a legitimate chemical company and more importantly with a good distributor. Some distributors for good chemical companies are the villians who actually salt an otherwise good chemical.
As the law says, "cavet emtur" Buyer beware.
Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS</HTML>
buda
At this point I am not sure how you can really tell if a water based chemical has been "salted."
The MSDS is not an answer since the MSDS only presents the ingredients that are hazardous, not all ingredients.
In any case, if a chemical supplier is "salting" I doubt whether they would reveal this on any sheet of paper.
Kind of like, in the old days when dealers "turned speedometers back" and put sawdust in the rearends. You remember that don't you?
You just have to deal with a legitimate chemical company and more importantly with a good distributor. Some distributors for good chemical companies are the villians who actually salt an otherwise good chemical.
As the law says, "cavet emtur" Buyer beware.
Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS</HTML>
buda
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Re: Question for Scotty/Bud July 08, 2004 11:42PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 499 |
<HTML>Thank you for your kind words Bud.
Brandy, I learned about this practice of adding salt to chemicals about 10 years ago when a supplier claimed that the new soap he had was better for washing cars because it was incredibly thick. I asked him to explain this to me and he told me that they formulated the soap specially to be really foamy and thick and they facilitated this through the addition of sodium chloride (table salt). I didn't think that sounded right and tested a sample of the product and found it did not work very well. I further researched the subject and found that this was common practice among unscrupulous suppliers to maximize profits. Unfortunately back then I was not able to have an excellent research tool like the internet at my disposal to find this kind of information easily. What a blessing this forum is for us detailers! I always wanted to know chemically how the products I was using were affecting my health, the vehicles I worked on and the environment so I tried my best to learn. I attended Ketch's class a few years back for a "tune up" and learned a lot more too. That man is a goldmine of information for any question you may have.</HTML>
Brandy, I learned about this practice of adding salt to chemicals about 10 years ago when a supplier claimed that the new soap he had was better for washing cars because it was incredibly thick. I asked him to explain this to me and he told me that they formulated the soap specially to be really foamy and thick and they facilitated this through the addition of sodium chloride (table salt). I didn't think that sounded right and tested a sample of the product and found it did not work very well. I further researched the subject and found that this was common practice among unscrupulous suppliers to maximize profits. Unfortunately back then I was not able to have an excellent research tool like the internet at my disposal to find this kind of information easily. What a blessing this forum is for us detailers! I always wanted to know chemically how the products I was using were affecting my health, the vehicles I worked on and the environment so I tried my best to learn. I attended Ketch's class a few years back for a "tune up" and learned a lot more too. That man is a goldmine of information for any question you may have.</HTML>
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Re: Question for Scotty/Bud July 08, 2004 11:47PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 243 |
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Re: Question for Scotty/Bud July 08, 2004 11:47PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Brandy:
Glad you found this an interesting subject, that is why I posted it. Hope others found it of value.
Standards for chemicals, in a free enterprise system, the only standard is the market.
Of course there are consumer protection laws that you can invoke against a company that has sold you fraudulently. That is, sold you a product that has been "salted" for example. The governments are very hot on consumer fraud.
Doubtful that a detailers association could do any police dogging of chemical companies.
This is something that knowledgeable and informed detailers must do for themselves. That is knowing what they don't know and using the knowledge they have to protect themselves in business.
In most cases when you deal with one chemical company, one distributor and partner with them you will get what you want and need. I have written some good articles on the subject of "partnering with a supplier."
Too many detailers look at a detail supplier like, "what are you going to do for me?" It is a two way street, if you expect a supplier to give you their all you need to make some commitments to them.
I think you get the idea.
Regards
Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS</HTML>
buda
Glad you found this an interesting subject, that is why I posted it. Hope others found it of value.
Standards for chemicals, in a free enterprise system, the only standard is the market.
Of course there are consumer protection laws that you can invoke against a company that has sold you fraudulently. That is, sold you a product that has been "salted" for example. The governments are very hot on consumer fraud.
Doubtful that a detailers association could do any police dogging of chemical companies.
This is something that knowledgeable and informed detailers must do for themselves. That is knowing what they don't know and using the knowledge they have to protect themselves in business.
In most cases when you deal with one chemical company, one distributor and partner with them you will get what you want and need. I have written some good articles on the subject of "partnering with a supplier."
Too many detailers look at a detail supplier like, "what are you going to do for me?" It is a two way street, if you expect a supplier to give you their all you need to make some commitments to them.
I think you get the idea.
Regards
Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS</HTML>
buda
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Re: Question for Scotty/Bud July 09, 2004 12:07AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 237 |
<HTML>I really don't think it's problem I am ever going to come across in this country. I have the likes of Auto Glym and Auto Smart fighting over our custom. There is no need for me to go to less than repuatble companies.
But I'd love to know why dealers would "put sawdust in the rearends".
Even as the son of a car dealer, I really don't know what you are talking about!</HTML>
But I'd love to know why dealers would "put sawdust in the rearends".
Even as the son of a car dealer, I really don't know what you are talking about!</HTML>
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Re: Question for Scotty/Bud July 09, 2004 12:10AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 237 |
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Re: Question for Scotty/Bud July 09, 2004 12:59AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Dan:
That does not go on much in the USA in these days of "tough" consumer protection laws, nor does turning back the speedometer.
However, used car dealers in the old days, before consumer protection laws and the Consumer Protection Agency, would put sawdust in rear ends or differentials to keep them quiet if they were going out.
You do not know what I am talking about because you are either to young or because British used car dealers are very honest.
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
That does not go on much in the USA in these days of "tough" consumer protection laws, nor does turning back the speedometer.
However, used car dealers in the old days, before consumer protection laws and the Consumer Protection Agency, would put sawdust in rear ends or differentials to keep them quiet if they were going out.
You do not know what I am talking about because you are either to young or because British used car dealers are very honest.
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
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Re: Question for Scotty/Bud July 09, 2004 01:10AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 866 |
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Re: Question for Scotty/Bud July 09, 2004 01:15AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 499 |
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Re: Question for Scotty/Bud July 09, 2004 01:36AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 505 |
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Re: Question for Scotty/Bud July 09, 2004 01:43AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 505 |
<HTML>Sodium cloride, is required to be listed on an "true and honest" MSDS, since it may have be considered a "haz-mat" issue and does react with other chemical components, under the right circumstances.
Many "soaps", as Bud points out, do contain some percentage of "salt-sodium cloride", and as anyone who lives in an area of the country, or other nations, which use "sodium cloride-salt" to melt salt from the roads, it is a very "corossive" component.
"Carwash soaps" which contain this chemical, are, as Scotty and others point out, a very cheap and dishonest way of presenting a quality product.
Much of that comes from the mis-conception, that "thicker is better", and the lack of eductation of chemical components by most in the industry.
As we explain in our class, water is the most used "solvent" in the world, all the "chemical components" that a quality manufacturer adds, is to make the world's most widely used "solvent", a better "solvent".
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it all!
Many "soaps", as Bud points out, do contain some percentage of "salt-sodium cloride", and as anyone who lives in an area of the country, or other nations, which use "sodium cloride-salt" to melt salt from the roads, it is a very "corossive" component.
"Carwash soaps" which contain this chemical, are, as Scotty and others point out, a very cheap and dishonest way of presenting a quality product.
Much of that comes from the mis-conception, that "thicker is better", and the lack of eductation of chemical components by most in the industry.
As we explain in our class, water is the most used "solvent" in the world, all the "chemical components" that a quality manufacturer adds, is to make the world's most widely used "solvent", a better "solvent".
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it all!
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Re: Question for Scotty/Bud July 09, 2004 01:55AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 505 |
<HTML>Eric,
Really quite simple, if one purchases a "carwash soap" one with out some "additives that "wax as you wash", sort of product".
All you have to do do is compare it to a true "quality" carwash,that is not "tainted" by additives and watch what happens when you have rinsed off the vehicle.
If you "notice a film", one that creates a "haze-etc", it has "salt" in it.
Not an "expensive" process to add a little keosene or a very small amount of a low grade PDMS, etc to the product, to create a perseved, "Wash and Wax" product.
After all, most detailers are not going to do the detective work, sit down and read books, learn about chemistry.
That is what a "lot of bath tubbers" depend on, not true performance, not to spend the money to employe graduated chemical chemists, but the good old, "WOW" factor, of "this is good @!#$ Maynard", and it is $XXX dollars cheaper than "Joe's", sort of approach.
Eric, you know it, you see in the "off market paint suppliers", which is why the OEM"s, the people who have to warranty the vehicles they produce, do not use any companies products which have not passed their "tox-work place safety and engineering" groups.
It is not without cost, to the manufacturers of "quality products", to meet these requirements, to use the "correct components", which are not damaging to the user and enviorment, and that is "part" of the reason "good costs more", than " this is the greatest stuff in the world", that we all see so much of.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it all!
Really quite simple, if one purchases a "carwash soap" one with out some "additives that "wax as you wash", sort of product".
All you have to do do is compare it to a true "quality" carwash,that is not "tainted" by additives and watch what happens when you have rinsed off the vehicle.
If you "notice a film", one that creates a "haze-etc", it has "salt" in it.
Not an "expensive" process to add a little keosene or a very small amount of a low grade PDMS, etc to the product, to create a perseved, "Wash and Wax" product.
After all, most detailers are not going to do the detective work, sit down and read books, learn about chemistry.
That is what a "lot of bath tubbers" depend on, not true performance, not to spend the money to employe graduated chemical chemists, but the good old, "WOW" factor, of "this is good @!#$ Maynard", and it is $XXX dollars cheaper than "Joe's", sort of approach.
Eric, you know it, you see in the "off market paint suppliers", which is why the OEM"s, the people who have to warranty the vehicles they produce, do not use any companies products which have not passed their "tox-work place safety and engineering" groups.
It is not without cost, to the manufacturers of "quality products", to meet these requirements, to use the "correct components", which are not damaging to the user and enviorment, and that is "part" of the reason "good costs more", than " this is the greatest stuff in the world", that we all see so much of.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it all!
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Re: Question for Scotty/Bud July 09, 2004 02:08AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 243 |
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Re: Question for Scotty/Bud July 09, 2004 02:27AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 505 |
<HTML>It is really quite simple, Eric, but hard to get an "honest" answer.
What is the best is a shampoo, one with no artificle foaming agents, no salts, but a true non-sulfinated, cold water active shampoo.
Very close in reality to a quality, baby shampoo.
A "quality" car wash shampoo will maintain it's "
foam for more than a few seconds, it will NOT remove grease, let alone wax, it is safe to wash your own hair with, and my grand daughter has her's washed with our product at least once a month, to remove the tangles in it, and have for over 6 years.
In short, a quality "carwash" shampoo just takes off the "soil-dirt" when used with some water and a little agitation.
If anyone wants something that will take off dirt with out agitation, a bit of effort, they are "lazy" and best of luck of to them when Wal-Mart makes them a stock boy down the road.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it all!
What is the best is a shampoo, one with no artificle foaming agents, no salts, but a true non-sulfinated, cold water active shampoo.
Very close in reality to a quality, baby shampoo.
A "quality" car wash shampoo will maintain it's "
foam for more than a few seconds, it will NOT remove grease, let alone wax, it is safe to wash your own hair with, and my grand daughter has her's washed with our product at least once a month, to remove the tangles in it, and have for over 6 years.
In short, a quality "carwash" shampoo just takes off the "soil-dirt" when used with some water and a little agitation.
If anyone wants something that will take off dirt with out agitation, a bit of effort, they are "lazy" and best of luck of to them when Wal-Mart makes them a stock boy down the road.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it all!
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Re: Question for Scotty/Bud July 09, 2004 06:13PM |
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Re: Question for Scotty/Bud July 09, 2004 09:22PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 52 |
<HTML>hmmmmm...i would really appreciate to know which soap then would not put too much salt in my soup... also ...
the baby shampoo thing...does somebody got some hand on experience with it????
about the dishwasher liquid issue...
i thing it's not a good thing to use, as it takes off the wax coat, if i am not mistaken
enjoy the weekend
michael c</HTML>
the baby shampoo thing...does somebody got some hand on experience with it????
about the dishwasher liquid issue...
i thing it's not a good thing to use, as it takes off the wax coat, if i am not mistaken
enjoy the weekend
michael c</HTML>
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Re: Question for Scotty/Bud July 09, 2004 10:20PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 237 |
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Re: Question for Scotty/Bud July 09, 2004 11:43PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Eric:
If you want to really tell how good a shampoo is do the following:
1. Dilute it according to the manfacturer's instructions.
2. Pour a little into a coffee cup saucer and set it up on shelf and
allow it to completely evaporate.
3. After the evaporation has taken place one of two things will be left
in the saucer:
a. There will a white, flakey, dry residue or,
b. There will be a sticky, gummy residue
4. The good shampoo is the one that leaves the white, flakey dry residue
Regards
Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS</HTML>
buda
If you want to really tell how good a shampoo is do the following:
1. Dilute it according to the manfacturer's instructions.
2. Pour a little into a coffee cup saucer and set it up on shelf and
allow it to completely evaporate.
3. After the evaporation has taken place one of two things will be left
in the saucer:
a. There will a white, flakey, dry residue or,
b. There will be a sticky, gummy residue
4. The good shampoo is the one that leaves the white, flakey dry residue
Regards
Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS</HTML>
buda
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Re: Question for Scotty/Bud July 10, 2004 12:54AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Michael:
The salt issue has to do with "cheap" water based chemicals that have been altered to make them appear to be better than they are. You will not have this problem dealing with a legitimate company that has a reputation for honesty.
As for using baby shampoo or hair shampoo to wash a car is about as ridiculous as telling someone to wash their hair with liquid Joy.
The surfactants and ingredients used in carwash shampoo are chosen and formulated to get both the dirt and oil film off the car quickly and safely leaving a good surface tension on the finish. Baby shampoo or hair shampoo are nearly 7 pH and do not have the proper ingredients to get the car properly clean. There are certainly no cleaning solvents in hair shampoo.
Dishwashing soap is contains degreasers to remove the grease from pots, pans and dishes. You are correct, it will strip the car of any wax it has on the paint.
As stated before, use chemicals from a legitimate company and use chemicals for what they are formulated for. You will always be safe that way. Read what Ron Ketcham (Grumpy) tells you. His company is one of the legitimate chemical companies on the market.
Figure it out. Who else but Ron is on this forum? No other manufacturers of chemicals. No distributors of the major manufacturers.
Why not support the chemical companies that are here to inform you and help you, and give you straight information?
That is one of the basics in business, to help those who help you.
Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS</HTML>
buda
The salt issue has to do with "cheap" water based chemicals that have been altered to make them appear to be better than they are. You will not have this problem dealing with a legitimate company that has a reputation for honesty.
As for using baby shampoo or hair shampoo to wash a car is about as ridiculous as telling someone to wash their hair with liquid Joy.
The surfactants and ingredients used in carwash shampoo are chosen and formulated to get both the dirt and oil film off the car quickly and safely leaving a good surface tension on the finish. Baby shampoo or hair shampoo are nearly 7 pH and do not have the proper ingredients to get the car properly clean. There are certainly no cleaning solvents in hair shampoo.
Dishwashing soap is contains degreasers to remove the grease from pots, pans and dishes. You are correct, it will strip the car of any wax it has on the paint.
As stated before, use chemicals from a legitimate company and use chemicals for what they are formulated for. You will always be safe that way. Read what Ron Ketcham (Grumpy) tells you. His company is one of the legitimate chemical companies on the market.
Figure it out. Who else but Ron is on this forum? No other manufacturers of chemicals. No distributors of the major manufacturers.
Why not support the chemical companies that are here to inform you and help you, and give you straight information?
That is one of the basics in business, to help those who help you.
Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS</HTML>
buda
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Re: Question for Scotty/Bud July 10, 2004 02:22AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 505 |
<HTML>There was one mistake in my response, I meant to say a sulfinated system, not "non-sulfinated" system.
The key ingredient in a quality carwash shampoo is the same as in a quality hair shampoo, cocanut oil or "cocadiamide".
Baby shampoo is really quite safe on today's paints and the key to the baby shampoo is that it has no fragrances or "builder" added to it, vs, adult-boutique high priced shampoo's.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it all!
The key ingredient in a quality carwash shampoo is the same as in a quality hair shampoo, cocanut oil or "cocadiamide".
Baby shampoo is really quite safe on today's paints and the key to the baby shampoo is that it has no fragrances or "builder" added to it, vs, adult-boutique high priced shampoo's.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it all!
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