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Car wash information
Posted by Rod W.
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Re: Floaties in the Soap Car wash information September 04, 2004 03:40PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Unfortunately in a court of law everything you stated in the post was "heresay and opinion." You have never been in the carwash business; have never built equipment; have never operated a carwash and never experimented with washing materials, which by the way you name incorrectly.
For the past 35 years I have been involved in all aspects of the carwash business at one time or another. I have been deeply involved in the question of scratching, etc.
In the past, I will admit that carwashes with plastic brushes did make marks in the paint. Even the University of Munich's test indicated there were marks, but they were no where as deep and random as those from hand washing.
Why my comments are not opinion is because they are based on experience gained in the business but moreso based on the University of Munich's test. I am only repeating the results of that test, not my own opinion.
And, you have no way to know that a chemical strips wax off a car? How can you determine that without extensive testing instruments? Water beading is not a determination that a car has wax. Oil. kersosene, etc will make water bead on a paint finish.
You convict yourself by your own commentary. Reread what you said and see if Clarence Darrow wouldn't have blown you off the witness stand.
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
For the past 35 years I have been involved in all aspects of the carwash business at one time or another. I have been deeply involved in the question of scratching, etc.
In the past, I will admit that carwashes with plastic brushes did make marks in the paint. Even the University of Munich's test indicated there were marks, but they were no where as deep and random as those from hand washing.
Why my comments are not opinion is because they are based on experience gained in the business but moreso based on the University of Munich's test. I am only repeating the results of that test, not my own opinion.
And, you have no way to know that a chemical strips wax off a car? How can you determine that without extensive testing instruments? Water beading is not a determination that a car has wax. Oil. kersosene, etc will make water bead on a paint finish.
You convict yourself by your own commentary. Reread what you said and see if Clarence Darrow wouldn't have blown you off the witness stand.
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
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Re: Floaties in the Soap Car wash information September 04, 2004 03:40PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Unfortunately in a court of law everything you stated in the post was "heresay and opinion." You have never been in the carwash business; have never built equipment; have never operated a carwash and never experimented with washing materials, which by the way you name incorrectly.
For the past 35 years I have been involved in all aspects of the carwash business at one time or another. I have been deeply involved in the question of scratching, etc.
In the past, I will admit that carwashes with plastic brushes did make marks in the paint. Even the University of Munich's test indicated there were marks, but they were no where as deep and random as those from hand washing.
Why my comments are not opinion is because they are based on experience gained in the business but moreso based on the University of Munich's test. I am only repeating the results of that test, not my own opinion.
And, you have no way to know that a chemical strips wax off a car? How can you determine that without extensive testing instruments? Water beading is not a determination that a car has wax. Oil. kersosene, etc will make water bead on a paint finish.
You convict yourself by your own commentary. Reread what you said and see if Clarence Darrow wouldn't have blown you off the witness stand.
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
For the past 35 years I have been involved in all aspects of the carwash business at one time or another. I have been deeply involved in the question of scratching, etc.
In the past, I will admit that carwashes with plastic brushes did make marks in the paint. Even the University of Munich's test indicated there were marks, but they were no where as deep and random as those from hand washing.
Why my comments are not opinion is because they are based on experience gained in the business but moreso based on the University of Munich's test. I am only repeating the results of that test, not my own opinion.
And, you have no way to know that a chemical strips wax off a car? How can you determine that without extensive testing instruments? Water beading is not a determination that a car has wax. Oil. kersosene, etc will make water bead on a paint finish.
You convict yourself by your own commentary. Reread what you said and see if Clarence Darrow wouldn't have blown you off the witness stand.
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
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Re: Floaties in the Soap Car wash information September 04, 2004 04:47PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 505 |
<HTML>Dan, there are many, new filtering technologies that have been introduced to the carwash industry over the past few years.
The use of "sodium cloride", IE "salt" has been in use for decades as a part of the "water softening" process.
But, you do bring up an interesting question, so here goes a little more technical chemical information for all.
Ever notice how some "carwash soaps" are much "thicker" than others?
Read the MSDS and look under the "hazardous section", and if the manufacturer or supplier is honest with their MSDS's, you might notice "sodium cloride" listed, IE--"SALT".
Now, one who lives in a part of the world where salt is used to clear the roads of snow and ice, are aware of the corrossive damages that salt does to paint and metal.
It is corrossive in nature and in car care products. That is a scientific fact.
The salt is put in the cheap carwash soaps for two basic reasons, one to create the "thickness" that is perceived by uninformed users that it must be better as it is thick.
The second reason it is part of the product, is this, since it is "corrossive" or "caustic" it will aid in removing dirt, etc since it "eats" at these materials.
However, it also creates other problems, such as attacking any wax or sealant on the vehicle.
Plus, now here is the one that most never considered, "ever notice that when one uses these type of salt laden soaps, there is a "film" left on the paint and when the user chamious or towels off the vehicle, a "dragging" of the cloth will occur, plus where the user does not completely remove the water, there may be a small amount of "streaking" left behind?
That is the result of the "sodium cloride", "salt" used in the product.
Quality carwash shampoo's do not contain salt, nor do they contain any of the many variations of "butyl cellosolve" components.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it all!
The use of "sodium cloride", IE "salt" has been in use for decades as a part of the "water softening" process.
But, you do bring up an interesting question, so here goes a little more technical chemical information for all.
Ever notice how some "carwash soaps" are much "thicker" than others?
Read the MSDS and look under the "hazardous section", and if the manufacturer or supplier is honest with their MSDS's, you might notice "sodium cloride" listed, IE--"SALT".
Now, one who lives in a part of the world where salt is used to clear the roads of snow and ice, are aware of the corrossive damages that salt does to paint and metal.
It is corrossive in nature and in car care products. That is a scientific fact.
The salt is put in the cheap carwash soaps for two basic reasons, one to create the "thickness" that is perceived by uninformed users that it must be better as it is thick.
The second reason it is part of the product, is this, since it is "corrossive" or "caustic" it will aid in removing dirt, etc since it "eats" at these materials.
However, it also creates other problems, such as attacking any wax or sealant on the vehicle.
Plus, now here is the one that most never considered, "ever notice that when one uses these type of salt laden soaps, there is a "film" left on the paint and when the user chamious or towels off the vehicle, a "dragging" of the cloth will occur, plus where the user does not completely remove the water, there may be a small amount of "streaking" left behind?
That is the result of the "sodium cloride", "salt" used in the product.
Quality carwash shampoo's do not contain salt, nor do they contain any of the many variations of "butyl cellosolve" components.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it all!
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Re: Floaties in the Soap Car wash information September 04, 2004 08:08PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Dan:
The University of Munich test indicates that carwash brushes are not as abrasive on the finish of the car as hand washing methods because when a carwash mitt or sponge first touches the car and everytime thereafter it continuously picks up and keeps grit in the fibers or cells of the sponge Placed against the paint time after time, results in a "sanding affect" on the paint which their micro-scopic photos of the paint revealed.
And, when you say brushes, you are referrring to the brushes in automatic carwashes in the UK, correct? I would assume they are plastic bristle, correct?
We do not use, and have not used plastic brushes in professional carwashes in the US for at least 20 years, we use cloth and foam. Yes, some gas station roll over carwashes do still use plastic brushes, but even they are fading out in lieu of touchless washes which use acid; high alkaline chemicals and high pressure, which really does not clean a dirty car.
Actually it is not as much the washing medium that scratches the paint as much as the grit and dirt on the car. If you can use a pre-soak chemical and then high pressure water before hand or machine washing the car you will eliminate much of the scratching or marring to the paint problem.
Regards.
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
The University of Munich test indicates that carwash brushes are not as abrasive on the finish of the car as hand washing methods because when a carwash mitt or sponge first touches the car and everytime thereafter it continuously picks up and keeps grit in the fibers or cells of the sponge Placed against the paint time after time, results in a "sanding affect" on the paint which their micro-scopic photos of the paint revealed.
And, when you say brushes, you are referrring to the brushes in automatic carwashes in the UK, correct? I would assume they are plastic bristle, correct?
We do not use, and have not used plastic brushes in professional carwashes in the US for at least 20 years, we use cloth and foam. Yes, some gas station roll over carwashes do still use plastic brushes, but even they are fading out in lieu of touchless washes which use acid; high alkaline chemicals and high pressure, which really does not clean a dirty car.
Actually it is not as much the washing medium that scratches the paint as much as the grit and dirt on the car. If you can use a pre-soak chemical and then high pressure water before hand or machine washing the car you will eliminate much of the scratching or marring to the paint problem.
Regards.
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
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Re: Floaties in the Soap Car wash information September 04, 2004 08:11PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Doug:
As far as salt is concerned, I do not believe that is scratches since it quickly dissolves in water. That is why in the snow belt states where they use salt on the roads and the cars are filthy white are easy to wash in a touchless carwash. The salt easily dissolves with chemical and high pressure water.
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
As far as salt is concerned, I do not believe that is scratches since it quickly dissolves in water. That is why in the snow belt states where they use salt on the roads and the cars are filthy white are easy to wash in a touchless carwash. The salt easily dissolves with chemical and high pressure water.
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
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Re: Floaties in the Soap Car wash information September 04, 2004 08:18PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Ketch:
Good point about expensive and inexpensively made carwash shampoos. Most of the better companies supplying the carwash industry are selling thinner non-sodium shampoos, at least to my knowledge.
The cheap products come from the local "bathtub" suppliers in each market.
When I was in Kuwait a few years ago meeting with the KUWAIT NATIONAL PETROLEUM CO. who owned and operated the only 5 automatic carwashes in the country I was trying to sell them a quality carwash shampoo.
We would sell them 12 gallons of super concentrate that would make 55 gallons of ready to use chemical at about 1 to 1.5 ozs per car for about $100.
They refused saying they were getting a 55 gallon drum of very thick, STP like shampoo for $75 per 55 gallon drum.
When I asked how much they used per car it was 6 ozs per car. You do the numbers, it does not calculate at all. But the $75 seemed so much cheaper than the $100.
Further the product was made primarily of non-standard, sulphonic acid which you know is not a quality ingredient, but people do buy price and talk quality.
Regards
Bud ABraham</HTML>
buda
Good point about expensive and inexpensively made carwash shampoos. Most of the better companies supplying the carwash industry are selling thinner non-sodium shampoos, at least to my knowledge.
The cheap products come from the local "bathtub" suppliers in each market.
When I was in Kuwait a few years ago meeting with the KUWAIT NATIONAL PETROLEUM CO. who owned and operated the only 5 automatic carwashes in the country I was trying to sell them a quality carwash shampoo.
We would sell them 12 gallons of super concentrate that would make 55 gallons of ready to use chemical at about 1 to 1.5 ozs per car for about $100.
They refused saying they were getting a 55 gallon drum of very thick, STP like shampoo for $75 per 55 gallon drum.
When I asked how much they used per car it was 6 ozs per car. You do the numbers, it does not calculate at all. But the $75 seemed so much cheaper than the $100.
Further the product was made primarily of non-standard, sulphonic acid which you know is not a quality ingredient, but people do buy price and talk quality.
Regards
Bud ABraham</HTML>
buda
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Re: Floaties in the Soap Car wash information September 05, 2004 12:34AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 237 |
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<p>Quote: Bud Abraham </p>
<p>Unfortunately in a court of law everything you stated in the post was "heresay and opinion." You have never been in the carwash business; have never built equipment; have never operated a carwash and never experimented with washing materials, which by the way you name incorrectly</p>
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<p>I have been in a court of law on a number of occasions. You don't have to be a criminal or a lawyer to play an important role in the judicial system., I have been called upon to give evidence, and I have been called upon to serve on a jury and pass judgement. (And I will be in court again next month as a witness).<br>
It would be 'Heresay' if I had heard somebody else say that car washes caused damage. But I have seen it with my own eyes on many occasions. That means that what I say is first hand evidence. And as I have been in this business long enough to know a thing or two about different kinds of damage to paintwork, then I think I would just about qualify as an expert witness. You don't have to be in the car wash business to know a scratch when you see one. There are others here who certainly are expert enough to know damage from a car wash when they see it. If you disagree, explain what caused the damage on Joe's photo if it wasn't a car wash?</p>
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<p>Quote: Bud Abraham </p>
<p>And, you have no way to know that a chemical strips wax off a car? How can you determine that without extensive testing instruments? Water beading is not a determination that a car has wax. Oil. kersosene, etc will make water bead on a paint finish.</p>
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<p>I never passed an opinion one way or another about wax being stripped off cars. I clearly said that my argument has nothing to do with chemical damage to cars. Nor have I ever said that beading determines wether a car has wax or not. In fact, on other threads I have expressed the oposite opion that is is no measure of wax protection.</p>
<p>You are fighting with straw men.</p>
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<p>Quote: Bud Abraham </p>
<p>You convict yourself by your own commentary. Reread what you said and see if Clarence Darrow wouldn't have blown you off the witness stand.</p>
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<p>Clarence who?</p>
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<p>Quote: Bud Abraham </p>
<p>The University of Munich test indicates that carwash brushes are not as abrasive on the finish of the car as hand washing methods because when a carwash mitt or sponge first touches the car and everytime thereafter it continuously picks up and keeps grit in the fibers or cells of the sponge Placed against the paint time after time, results in a "sanding affect" on the paint which their micro-scopic photos of the paint revealed.</p>
<p>And, when you say brushes, <b><font color="#FF0000">you are referrring to the brushes in automatic carwashes in the UK, correct? I would assume they are plastic bristle, correct?</font></b></p>
<p>We do not use, and have not used plastic brushes in professional carwashes in the US for at least 20 years,</p>
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<p>You are correct, most of the car washes in this country, and from the evidence I have seen of German cars in Sweden, are of nylon bristle type. Many of them are now of a type called 'Soft Wash' which has longer, thinner, bristles of a softer plastic, but these still causing scratches, they can also leave nylon streaks all over the paintwork.</p>
<p>But you did say of the test...</p>
<table width="98%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="5" bgcolor="#FFFF99">
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<p>Quote: Bud Abraham </p>
<p>Before being so quick to condemn automatic carwashes for scratching cars you ought to read the results of a study done by the Technological University of Munich for Mercedes Benz, substantiated by the University of Texas which reported that hand washing caused more damage to the finish of the car after 26 washings than did machine washing. <b><font color="#FF0000">And, this was an automatic with plastic washing material. </font></b>Today washes are using a special cloth and/or foam.</p>
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<p>I have nothing against touchless washes and I wouldn't have passed comment if it wasn't for this. You indicate quite clearly that the test results were based on the old kind of automated car wash. I simply don't believe that they cause less damage than washing by hand.</p>
<p>I haven't any photos of it, but I have seen a new car which has been washed once in an automated car wash, yet you could clearly see the damage on the sides of the car from 15 yrds away. Because it was in a uniform pattern it was all the more visable, but even so, you would have had to have done something seriously wrong to get that amount of damage from hand washing just once.</p>
<p>As I have said, I have nothing against touchless washes, but you arn't doing much to give me confidence. It seems that even if I can trust the wash manufacturers, I can trust the owners to use the correct chemicals! And as you can't tell just by looking, judging by what you say, it's probably best not to trust any of them.</p></HTML>
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<p>Quote: Bud Abraham </p>
<p>Unfortunately in a court of law everything you stated in the post was "heresay and opinion." You have never been in the carwash business; have never built equipment; have never operated a carwash and never experimented with washing materials, which by the way you name incorrectly</p>
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<p>I have been in a court of law on a number of occasions. You don't have to be a criminal or a lawyer to play an important role in the judicial system., I have been called upon to give evidence, and I have been called upon to serve on a jury and pass judgement. (And I will be in court again next month as a witness).<br>
It would be 'Heresay' if I had heard somebody else say that car washes caused damage. But I have seen it with my own eyes on many occasions. That means that what I say is first hand evidence. And as I have been in this business long enough to know a thing or two about different kinds of damage to paintwork, then I think I would just about qualify as an expert witness. You don't have to be in the car wash business to know a scratch when you see one. There are others here who certainly are expert enough to know damage from a car wash when they see it. If you disagree, explain what caused the damage on Joe's photo if it wasn't a car wash?</p>
<table width="98%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="5" bgcolor="#FFFF99">
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<td>
<p>Quote: Bud Abraham </p>
<p>And, you have no way to know that a chemical strips wax off a car? How can you determine that without extensive testing instruments? Water beading is not a determination that a car has wax. Oil. kersosene, etc will make water bead on a paint finish.</p>
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<p>I never passed an opinion one way or another about wax being stripped off cars. I clearly said that my argument has nothing to do with chemical damage to cars. Nor have I ever said that beading determines wether a car has wax or not. In fact, on other threads I have expressed the oposite opion that is is no measure of wax protection.</p>
<p>You are fighting with straw men.</p>
<table width="98%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="5" bgcolor="#FFFF99">
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<p>Quote: Bud Abraham </p>
<p>You convict yourself by your own commentary. Reread what you said and see if Clarence Darrow wouldn't have blown you off the witness stand.</p>
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<p>Clarence who?</p>
<table width="98%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="5" bgcolor="#FFFF99">
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<td>
<p>Quote: Bud Abraham </p>
<p>The University of Munich test indicates that carwash brushes are not as abrasive on the finish of the car as hand washing methods because when a carwash mitt or sponge first touches the car and everytime thereafter it continuously picks up and keeps grit in the fibers or cells of the sponge Placed against the paint time after time, results in a "sanding affect" on the paint which their micro-scopic photos of the paint revealed.</p>
<p>And, when you say brushes, <b><font color="#FF0000">you are referrring to the brushes in automatic carwashes in the UK, correct? I would assume they are plastic bristle, correct?</font></b></p>
<p>We do not use, and have not used plastic brushes in professional carwashes in the US for at least 20 years,</p>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<p>You are correct, most of the car washes in this country, and from the evidence I have seen of German cars in Sweden, are of nylon bristle type. Many of them are now of a type called 'Soft Wash' which has longer, thinner, bristles of a softer plastic, but these still causing scratches, they can also leave nylon streaks all over the paintwork.</p>
<p>But you did say of the test...</p>
<table width="98%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="5" bgcolor="#FFFF99">
<tr>
<td>
<p>Quote: Bud Abraham </p>
<p>Before being so quick to condemn automatic carwashes for scratching cars you ought to read the results of a study done by the Technological University of Munich for Mercedes Benz, substantiated by the University of Texas which reported that hand washing caused more damage to the finish of the car after 26 washings than did machine washing. <b><font color="#FF0000">And, this was an automatic with plastic washing material. </font></b>Today washes are using a special cloth and/or foam.</p>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<p>I have nothing against touchless washes and I wouldn't have passed comment if it wasn't for this. You indicate quite clearly that the test results were based on the old kind of automated car wash. I simply don't believe that they cause less damage than washing by hand.</p>
<p>I haven't any photos of it, but I have seen a new car which has been washed once in an automated car wash, yet you could clearly see the damage on the sides of the car from 15 yrds away. Because it was in a uniform pattern it was all the more visable, but even so, you would have had to have done something seriously wrong to get that amount of damage from hand washing just once.</p>
<p>As I have said, I have nothing against touchless washes, but you arn't doing much to give me confidence. It seems that even if I can trust the wash manufacturers, I can trust the owners to use the correct chemicals! And as you can't tell just by looking, judging by what you say, it's probably best not to trust any of them.</p></HTML>
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Re: Floaties in the Soap Car wash information September 05, 2004 01:43AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 5 |
<HTML>Just because people buy it doesnt make it the best method, or even good for that matter. People buy crap all day every day, hats off to the marketing people.
Most people who use an automatic car wash dont even notice that their car looks horible, its clean and that is all they see. If you were to do a survey of cars coming out of the washes, inspect them and survey the owner as to how their car was cared for I bet you would feel differently about the test you are defending. THere is a big difference between lab tests and real world. Reminds me of the new accountant that sees things on paper and make the changes based strictly on what is written on paper only to see the company loose more money or compltly go down the tubes. I worked for a company that this happened to. We were very profitable untill they started pushing that pencil around too much.
Its kinda like the people who buy black cars and dont notice all the swirls in the paint? I cant tell you how many times a customer has pointed out a scratch but didnt even mention all the swirls which in my opinion were much worse than the scratch....go figure
I am not saying they are all bad but I can definatly say I have seen WAY TO MANY cars that have issues from being washed at an automatic/tunnel carwash.</HTML>
Most people who use an automatic car wash dont even notice that their car looks horible, its clean and that is all they see. If you were to do a survey of cars coming out of the washes, inspect them and survey the owner as to how their car was cared for I bet you would feel differently about the test you are defending. THere is a big difference between lab tests and real world. Reminds me of the new accountant that sees things on paper and make the changes based strictly on what is written on paper only to see the company loose more money or compltly go down the tubes. I worked for a company that this happened to. We were very profitable untill they started pushing that pencil around too much.
Its kinda like the people who buy black cars and dont notice all the swirls in the paint? I cant tell you how many times a customer has pointed out a scratch but didnt even mention all the swirls which in my opinion were much worse than the scratch....go figure
I am not saying they are all bad but I can definatly say I have seen WAY TO MANY cars that have issues from being washed at an automatic/tunnel carwash.</HTML>
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Re: Floaties in the Soap Car wash information September 05, 2004 01:56AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 5 |
<HTML>here is another thing to think about when someone says how long they have been at something, Just because they have been doing it for 10 years doesnt mean they have been doing it right even if they are sucessfull. Their marketing could easily carry a poor product for a while.
Always remember....practice doesnt make "perfect", it makes PERMANENT. So if you practice the wrong technique for a long time you will just get good at doing something the hard/wrong way.</HTML>
Always remember....practice doesnt make "perfect", it makes PERMANENT. So if you practice the wrong technique for a long time you will just get good at doing something the hard/wrong way.</HTML>
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Re: Floaties in the Soap Car wash information September 05, 2004 02:01AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 505 |
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Re: Floaties in the Soap Car wash information September 05, 2004 03:18AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 1,838 |
<HTML>If I may add, I have a fact that I'd like to add without taking sides. This was written by MB about the new Nano paint.
"A large proportion of all paintwork scratches are caused by mechanical car-washes. Minute particles of hard materials, such as road dust and sand, become lodged in the rotating brushes and etch scratches into the paint surface." -- Daimler Chrysler</HTML>
Take care,
Brian
Precision Auto & Marine
Learn to detail boats! Visit www.detailtheboat.com
"A large proportion of all paintwork scratches are caused by mechanical car-washes. Minute particles of hard materials, such as road dust and sand, become lodged in the rotating brushes and etch scratches into the paint surface." -- Daimler Chrysler</HTML>
Take care,
Brian
Precision Auto & Marine
Learn to detail boats! Visit www.detailtheboat.com
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Re: Floaties in the Soap Car wash information September 05, 2004 03:35AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 505 |
<HTML>Gee, I never saw that before, wait a minute, I helped them write it!
Oh, so sorry.
In all seriousness, not only do the average consumer, but 99% of detailers really understand the differences that a "soap" may have versus a "shampoo".
Nor, do are either able to comprhend how important the chemistry of either really is, in the bigger scope.
What ever the term one may use, there are really only a couple or so of things that should be considered, 1. being pH, 2. being the chemical components, 3. being the "lubricity" of the chosen product, 4. being the ability to "lift" the soil from the surface, 5, no SAFE, non-caustic soap/shampoo will remove the soil without some form of agitation.
The last, #5, is why so many "carwashes" use brushes, or the best, in my opinion, is the one first developed and introduced to the carwash market, NS System's, "lamm's wool" or something like that.
This is the system, back in the late 80's, that I and some others recommended and was chosen by Ford to use for an "automatic carwash system" in their 3 "Vehicle Prep Centers".
It did not use nylon brushes, nylon/etc beating strips, but allowed a non-caustic, highly lubicating, low pH "shampoo" to do it's job and then after the correct carwash shampoo was foamed on, following a "wet down" cycle, the agitator "lamm's" could agitate the surfaces without damaging the clears.
Not that it is of course important, but this was the system used on in excess of 700 vehicles at just one of the centers, over all, each day, the vehicle count was above 1,500 a day, with no damage.
I could go on and on regarding the pro's and con's on systems, but what the hell, in the detailing business, hand washing is the method.
It does, however, bring to the surface this one fact, use a product that is "non-caustic" and be prepared to put some effort into washing a vehicle with a qualilty mitt.
If someone wants to "strip" the surface, they should use a chemical product that is formulated for that purpose.
After that, they can look at the "striped of all "hiding, fillers, cheap glazes, waxes" and know what they are really going to deal with.</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it all!
Oh, so sorry.
In all seriousness, not only do the average consumer, but 99% of detailers really understand the differences that a "soap" may have versus a "shampoo".
Nor, do are either able to comprhend how important the chemistry of either really is, in the bigger scope.
What ever the term one may use, there are really only a couple or so of things that should be considered, 1. being pH, 2. being the chemical components, 3. being the "lubricity" of the chosen product, 4. being the ability to "lift" the soil from the surface, 5, no SAFE, non-caustic soap/shampoo will remove the soil without some form of agitation.
The last, #5, is why so many "carwashes" use brushes, or the best, in my opinion, is the one first developed and introduced to the carwash market, NS System's, "lamm's wool" or something like that.
This is the system, back in the late 80's, that I and some others recommended and was chosen by Ford to use for an "automatic carwash system" in their 3 "Vehicle Prep Centers".
It did not use nylon brushes, nylon/etc beating strips, but allowed a non-caustic, highly lubicating, low pH "shampoo" to do it's job and then after the correct carwash shampoo was foamed on, following a "wet down" cycle, the agitator "lamm's" could agitate the surfaces without damaging the clears.
Not that it is of course important, but this was the system used on in excess of 700 vehicles at just one of the centers, over all, each day, the vehicle count was above 1,500 a day, with no damage.
I could go on and on regarding the pro's and con's on systems, but what the hell, in the detailing business, hand washing is the method.
It does, however, bring to the surface this one fact, use a product that is "non-caustic" and be prepared to put some effort into washing a vehicle with a qualilty mitt.
If someone wants to "strip" the surface, they should use a chemical product that is formulated for that purpose.
After that, they can look at the "striped of all "hiding, fillers, cheap glazes, waxes" and know what they are really going to deal with.</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it all!
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Re: Floaties in the Soap Car wash information September 05, 2004 03:42AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 1,838 |
<HTML>Germancarfans.com did a reposting of an article put out by DaimlerChrysler about the nano paint and its durability. Carwashing was mentioned as the main source of sctarching.
Check here for the article: [www.germancarfans.com];
Take care,
Brian
Precision Auto & Marine
Learn to detail boats! Visit www.detailtheboat.com
Check here for the article: [www.germancarfans.com];
Take care,
Brian
Precision Auto & Marine
Learn to detail boats! Visit www.detailtheboat.com
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Re: Floaties in the Soap Car wash information September 05, 2004 03:47AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 505 |
<HTML>Brian, "nano clear' is a PPG developed product.
In Germany, it is sold to M/B under an "acceptable" German based company, that PPG bought a few years ago.
Second, the article you are referring to was written by a "hired hack" for M/B, directed at the uninformed "consumer" in order to differenciate their paint system from the other competing brands.
It is honestly, missing so much "true" technical information as to almost constitute fraud.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it all!
In Germany, it is sold to M/B under an "acceptable" German based company, that PPG bought a few years ago.
Second, the article you are referring to was written by a "hired hack" for M/B, directed at the uninformed "consumer" in order to differenciate their paint system from the other competing brands.
It is honestly, missing so much "true" technical information as to almost constitute fraud.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it all!
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Re: Floaties in the Soap Car wash information September 05, 2004 05:04AM |
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Re: Floaties in the Soap Car wash information September 05, 2004 05:11AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 505 |
<HTML>Bud, "yup", but then salt is cheap, as are some of the other caustic's that the "cheapo's" may use.
Lot's of a very unrefined butyl, or metasilicate, or the cheapest of them all, since in this country and most developed nations it is outlawed for use in household use laundry deterents, Tri-sodium-phosphates!!!
All will "clean" like hell, and really screw up the ground water, etc.
These sort of "compounders/blenders, will go to any lenght to get around being enviormentally compliant.
All they want to do is sell product.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it all!
Lot's of a very unrefined butyl, or metasilicate, or the cheapest of them all, since in this country and most developed nations it is outlawed for use in household use laundry deterents, Tri-sodium-phosphates!!!
All will "clean" like hell, and really screw up the ground water, etc.
These sort of "compounders/blenders, will go to any lenght to get around being enviormentally compliant.
All they want to do is sell product.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it all!
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Re: Floaties in the Soap Car wash information September 05, 2004 05:20AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 505 |
<HTML>Very insightful reference, Doug.
As for myself, I am a fan of the "silver-back gorilla", even have a forum on Delphi that features my alter ego, "Mongo", the "Silverback Gorilla".
Plus do send a buck or two to protect the species.
Don't know about you, but I sure as hell ain't gonna get in fight with a "silverback".
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it all!
As for myself, I am a fan of the "silver-back gorilla", even have a forum on Delphi that features my alter ego, "Mongo", the "Silverback Gorilla".
Plus do send a buck or two to protect the species.
Don't know about you, but I sure as hell ain't gonna get in fight with a "silverback".
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it all!
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Re: Floaties in the Soap Car wash information September 05, 2004 05:53AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 54 |
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Re: Floaties in the Soap Car wash information September 05, 2004 06:02AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 505 |
<HTML>Yes it is, Ben.
And it is only a "film build" on top of the clear, that is only one to two "micron's" thick.
Remove it by using the wrong, excessively abrasive old style compounds and watch the "marring" be worse than on any clear.
Great clear, now if PPG can only come up with a refinish clear that can applied by refinish shops, which they still are working and working and working on.
Big difference between an OEM paint system and what a bodyshop may be able to apply.
Ketch
"</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it all!
And it is only a "film build" on top of the clear, that is only one to two "micron's" thick.
Remove it by using the wrong, excessively abrasive old style compounds and watch the "marring" be worse than on any clear.
Great clear, now if PPG can only come up with a refinish clear that can applied by refinish shops, which they still are working and working and working on.
Big difference between an OEM paint system and what a bodyshop may be able to apply.
Ketch
"</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it all!
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Re: Floaties in the Soap Car wash information September 05, 2004 06:26AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 54 |
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Re: Floaties in the Soap Car wash information September 05, 2004 02:32PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
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Re: Floaties in the Soap Car wash information September 05, 2004 02:35PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>We are not all perfect you win some and loose some. But, Clarence Darrow was probably one of greatest defense attornies in the history of modern law.
I would want him defending me.
The Monkey=Scopes trial had to do with the theory of evolution at a time when the country still believed in God and this case was lost before the trial started.
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
I would want him defending me.
The Monkey=Scopes trial had to do with the theory of evolution at a time when the country still believed in God and this case was lost before the trial started.
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
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Re: Floaties in the Soap Car wash information September 05, 2004 02:40PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Of course carwashing is the main source of scratching of a paint surface because you are "grinding" the grit on the car into the paint, whether it is an automatic carwash or a hand wash.
The key is to get the dirt off before using a automatic brush or a hand wash mitt or sponge.
You will find a lot of stuff written by, as Ketch calls them "hacker" writers who either are hired by or work for the company having the writing done.
The manufacturers want to mitigate their warranty claims and say a lot of things that are not true, I have found. But it protects them.
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
The key is to get the dirt off before using a automatic brush or a hand wash mitt or sponge.
You will find a lot of stuff written by, as Ketch calls them "hacker" writers who either are hired by or work for the company having the writing done.
The manufacturers want to mitigate their warranty claims and say a lot of things that are not true, I have found. But it protects them.
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
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Re: Floaties in the Soap Car wash information September 05, 2004 03:47PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 505 |
<HTML>Ben, variables?
Amount of humdity, sulfur content of the ash, heat.
If things are right, it can work like acid rain, only slower.
As far as planes, only been in two plants, one at Boeing in Seattle and in Wichta, Ks, Cessna.
They are painted in a manner more like a bodyshop paints a car, by hand.
Earlier this year I was asked to go up to Davenport, Ia to a facilty at the Moline airport that does rebuilding, upgrades for corporate jets.
Their paint "booth" is almost 30,000 square feet, and works pretty much like a regular down draft vehicle booth.
Most of the paint applied is either Imron or some other paint companies version of DuPont's Imron.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it all!
Amount of humdity, sulfur content of the ash, heat.
If things are right, it can work like acid rain, only slower.
As far as planes, only been in two plants, one at Boeing in Seattle and in Wichta, Ks, Cessna.
They are painted in a manner more like a bodyshop paints a car, by hand.
Earlier this year I was asked to go up to Davenport, Ia to a facilty at the Moline airport that does rebuilding, upgrades for corporate jets.
Their paint "booth" is almost 30,000 square feet, and works pretty much like a regular down draft vehicle booth.
Most of the paint applied is either Imron or some other paint companies version of DuPont's Imron.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it all!
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Re: Floaties in the Soap Car wash information September 06, 2004 12:37AM |
<HTML>Bud : In my opinion, the best way to choose detailing products is to buy from companies whose products have worked well for you already. Experimentation is fine, but if I'm in doubt about a product's effects, I try it on an old clunker or on my own personal truck. I get cautious when spraying chemicals on a beauty.
Recommendations of you and others on the forum carry a lot of weight with me. I figure that if a widely-used product is bad, someone will figure it out and alert us.
Years ago, I was impressed to learn the Harrah's Car Museum used Meguiar's products on priceless cars. I'm also impressed when show car guys choose a product line like Griot's or Malm's.
I pay some attention to money-back guarantees and I admit to being a sucker for exaggerated ad claims as well.
My own testing is the closest I get to knowing for sure that a product is harmless to me or the vehicle.
I'm not educated enough to know what is in the products, as you phrase it, but so far so good.
Doug</HTML>
Recommendations of you and others on the forum carry a lot of weight with me. I figure that if a widely-used product is bad, someone will figure it out and alert us.
Years ago, I was impressed to learn the Harrah's Car Museum used Meguiar's products on priceless cars. I'm also impressed when show car guys choose a product line like Griot's or Malm's.
I pay some attention to money-back guarantees and I admit to being a sucker for exaggerated ad claims as well.
My own testing is the closest I get to knowing for sure that a product is harmless to me or the vehicle.
I'm not educated enough to know what is in the products, as you phrase it, but so far so good.
Doug</HTML>
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Re: Floaties in the Soap Car wash information September 06, 2004 02:09AM |
<HTML> Bud : You are right but I was not seriously implying that loss of the case reflected badly on Darrow. This matter is discussed in Bill Bryson's hilarious book, A Walk In The Woods .
I'm still wondering if road salt is accumulated in the re-cycled wash water at car washes and then blasted into the recesses of customers' cars, thereby causing the cars to rust. Do you know the answer to that one ?
Point 3 : I think the damage cited on this thread indicates that a " Certified Safe " seal of approval for automatic carwashes would serve a purpose. I am curious what possible downside you see in the idea .
Doug</HTML>
I'm still wondering if road salt is accumulated in the re-cycled wash water at car washes and then blasted into the recesses of customers' cars, thereby causing the cars to rust. Do you know the answer to that one ?
Point 3 : I think the damage cited on this thread indicates that a " Certified Safe " seal of approval for automatic carwashes would serve a purpose. I am curious what possible downside you see in the idea .
Doug</HTML>
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Re: Floaties in the Soap Car wash information September 06, 2004 04:51AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>While carwashes use wash water reclaim systems they still wash with fresh water too in order to insure they maintain proper surface tension so that when the car is rinsed with fresh water and drying aid to bead the water it will dry properly.
Plus, the car as mentioned, is rinsed thoroughly with fresh water so any salty water that might be on the car is gone after the rinse.
Rust, as you may know, starts from the inside out and not the outside in. All of the cars sold in the USA must be rust proofed at the factory to insure that they do not rust as fast as they used to before the government legislation.
No, you cannot blame carwashes for rusting cars.
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
Plus, the car as mentioned, is rinsed thoroughly with fresh water so any salty water that might be on the car is gone after the rinse.
Rust, as you may know, starts from the inside out and not the outside in. All of the cars sold in the USA must be rust proofed at the factory to insure that they do not rust as fast as they used to before the government legislation.
No, you cannot blame carwashes for rusting cars.
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
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Re: Floaties in the Soap Car wash information September 06, 2004 05:00AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>You have got to use something as a standard I guess and if you want it to be Harrah's car collection or show car people so be it.
However, I am not at all impressed with show cars. All the shows I have been to reveal to me cars with spider scratches and talking to the owners I find they do not have a clue about which product is best or not. Most of them buy the high priced boutique products because they think that because they cost more they are better.
You know, they go for Zymol, etc. I am doing a Crusin' Car Show this weekend and I can guarantee that the cars will not be Concours perfect. I must say I have not been to the Concours Show here in Oregon but I would be interested to see how their finishes are.
I did see last year a car at a 1950's rock concert, a 41 Ford Coupe that was absolutely perfect. There was not a single spider scratch anywhere on the car. I did not get a chance to talk with the owner to find out what he did to achieve that perfect finish.
All you can do is use products you think work for you. But as Ron K said, you still might have a product that has inferior ingredients or a product that does not chemicall speaking, measure up to others on the market.
If it works for you I guess that is all that matters isn't it? Do you want an OEM windshield or an aftermarket windshield sold at Safelite Glass Shop.
OEM parts on your car or those made in Taiwan?
If you get a guarantee and the company is reputable, what difference does it make? For some it does, for others a better price is better.
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
However, I am not at all impressed with show cars. All the shows I have been to reveal to me cars with spider scratches and talking to the owners I find they do not have a clue about which product is best or not. Most of them buy the high priced boutique products because they think that because they cost more they are better.
You know, they go for Zymol, etc. I am doing a Crusin' Car Show this weekend and I can guarantee that the cars will not be Concours perfect. I must say I have not been to the Concours Show here in Oregon but I would be interested to see how their finishes are.
I did see last year a car at a 1950's rock concert, a 41 Ford Coupe that was absolutely perfect. There was not a single spider scratch anywhere on the car. I did not get a chance to talk with the owner to find out what he did to achieve that perfect finish.
All you can do is use products you think work for you. But as Ron K said, you still might have a product that has inferior ingredients or a product that does not chemicall speaking, measure up to others on the market.
If it works for you I guess that is all that matters isn't it? Do you want an OEM windshield or an aftermarket windshield sold at Safelite Glass Shop.
OEM parts on your car or those made in Taiwan?
If you get a guarantee and the company is reputable, what difference does it make? For some it does, for others a better price is better.
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
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Re: Floaties in the Soap Car wash information September 06, 2004 01:57PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 112 |
<HTML>This has been an interesting thread, to say the least.
I can simply add this little testimony.
Have a new customer with a beautiful black new Lexus ES300. Long story short: she previously owned an Accord EX until it was damaged at a local, well-respected tunnel wash. Without even going to court, the owner claimed liability, and now she's driving a new Lexus, courtesy of said tunnel wash owner.
He recieved terrible publicity, (sure she wasn't the first upset customer) business has slacked off, and I give him about 6 more months tops.
The new Lexus is hand washed every weekend now.
My two cents.
Regards,
Mike R</HTML>
-Get that great new car feeling!-
I can simply add this little testimony.
Have a new customer with a beautiful black new Lexus ES300. Long story short: she previously owned an Accord EX until it was damaged at a local, well-respected tunnel wash. Without even going to court, the owner claimed liability, and now she's driving a new Lexus, courtesy of said tunnel wash owner.
He recieved terrible publicity, (sure she wasn't the first upset customer) business has slacked off, and I give him about 6 more months tops.
The new Lexus is hand washed every weekend now.
My two cents.
Regards,
Mike R</HTML>
-Get that great new car feeling!-
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Car wash information September 07, 2004 03:28AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 634 |
<HTML>
Rod, to me a carwash isnt totally evil or damaging if its a well run system. What I HAVE seen is trim, antenna wires, or aftermarket fins, ect. damaged by spinning brushes or cloth strips snaging on them and bending or pulling them off. Its not uncommon for certain vehicles to be prone to these issues and they are well known to carwash owners. So to me the only thing I would be possibly concerned with is the type of vehicle and of it has any areas that could be snagged. This isnt something Ive seen very much of ever but it does come up from time to time as any carwash owner will tell you.
I have a customer who uses a car wash weekly on his Volvo and it is a very clean car with no damage done and he's been using the carwash for years. Mikes Express Carwash in Indianapolis. They are a good wash with good machines and effective chemicals. I have taken my car through without fear. I dont feel that all washes are equal and I would tend to believe the findings of the study Bud refers to.
John</HTML>
Rod, to me a carwash isnt totally evil or damaging if its a well run system. What I HAVE seen is trim, antenna wires, or aftermarket fins, ect. damaged by spinning brushes or cloth strips snaging on them and bending or pulling them off. Its not uncommon for certain vehicles to be prone to these issues and they are well known to carwash owners. So to me the only thing I would be possibly concerned with is the type of vehicle and of it has any areas that could be snagged. This isnt something Ive seen very much of ever but it does come up from time to time as any carwash owner will tell you.
I have a customer who uses a car wash weekly on his Volvo and it is a very clean car with no damage done and he's been using the carwash for years. Mikes Express Carwash in Indianapolis. They are a good wash with good machines and effective chemicals. I have taken my car through without fear. I dont feel that all washes are equal and I would tend to believe the findings of the study Bud refers to.
John</HTML>
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