Welcome!
» Log In
» Create A New Profile
Home
>
Auto Detailing: Secrets of the Experts
>
Topic
Anyone here use Cerious Compound/Polish yet?
Posted by George Backus
|
Anyone here use Cerious Compound/Polish yet? January 24, 2005 11:39PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 10 |
<HTML>I got a sample of this along with a whole bunch of other AutoInt products. So far I've liked everything I've tried(ABC, Omni, New Car Prep, rubber protector, etc.) but the only compound/polish I've tried is their Machine Polish, which I found to be similar to Meguirs #82 Swirl Free, maybe a little more powerful in the defect removal aspect. What I'm really interested in is the Cerious Compound/Polish. The only information I've found is that it acts differently depending on rotary speed and pad, but that's all the information I've found. Anyone care to elaborate or share experiences? For referance, I use Lake Country foam pads almost exclusively(except for the 3.5" buff and shine pads I use for tight areas), and am most familiar with Meguiars products.</HTML>
|
Re: Anyone here use Cerious Compound/Polish yet? January 25, 2005 12:56AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 118 |
<HTML>I have a few items I like from AutoInt. It's nice for a change to have trust in your suppliers and their products. I really enjoy Meguiar's professional line of compounds, polishes, etc. I put out some really nice pieces in 04' and I am looking forward to many more. I think Ron and his crew have really taken the time to get down into the true nuts and bolts of detailing. I am a very detail oriented person so I am always on the lookout to learn more and implement. Haven't tried "Cerious Compound/Polish. Pretty comfortable with what I am using now.</HTML>
Detailing, An Art In Motion!
Detailing, An Art In Motion!
|
Re: Anyone here use Cerious Compound/Polish yet? January 25, 2005 08:53PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 1,838 |
<HTML>You are right, Cerious Compound is either a polish or compound depending on what pads you use. However, I prefer the Machine Polish followed by the Finishing Wax sealant.
I'll use the Cerious on the cerami-clears.
What more information are you looking for George? Your best bet is to wait for Ron's reply on here.</HTML>
Take care,
Brian
Precision Auto & Marine
Learn to detail boats! Visit www.detailtheboat.com
I'll use the Cerious on the cerami-clears.
What more information are you looking for George? Your best bet is to wait for Ron's reply on here.</HTML>
Take care,
Brian
Precision Auto & Marine
Learn to detail boats! Visit www.detailtheboat.com
|
Re: Anyone here use Cerious Compound/Polish yet? February 02, 2005 01:50AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 10 |
<HTML>Brian,
Do you find the machine polish to be about as agressive as meguiars #83 DACP? I found it to be more terms with #82 Swirl free, but perhaps it is how I am using it?(I used the machine polish at 1200 rpm with a finishin pad, vs. 1500-1600 and a polishing pad with DACP) The reason I'm interested in the Cerious Compound is because of it's ability to act as both a compound and a polish, and I found Autoints Liquid paint correction cream to be a lot more agressive than DACP.</HTML>
Do you find the machine polish to be about as agressive as meguiars #83 DACP? I found it to be more terms with #82 Swirl free, but perhaps it is how I am using it?(I used the machine polish at 1200 rpm with a finishin pad, vs. 1500-1600 and a polishing pad with DACP) The reason I'm interested in the Cerious Compound is because of it's ability to act as both a compound and a polish, and I found Autoints Liquid paint correction cream to be a lot more agressive than DACP.</HTML>
|
Re: Anyone here use Cerious Compound/Polish yet? February 02, 2005 10:44PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 1,838 |
<HTML>Hi George,
To be honest, I haven't used Meguiars in years. Only polish I've used of theirs was the Show Car Glaze -- and that was probably 8 years ago. I've just been using products unavailable in stores most of the time, like Stoner, Auto Magic, A.I., etc.
I loved the machine polish for the average neglected finishes and the Cerious for the Mercedes cerami-clears. From what I see, dealerships use wool buffing pads and heavy cut compounds on brand new Mercedes, which just blows my mind and disgusts me. The Cerious tends to make things better for them. Maybe they should join the PDTA. :-)</HTML>
Take care,
Brian
Precision Auto & Marine
Learn to detail boats! Visit www.detailtheboat.com
To be honest, I haven't used Meguiars in years. Only polish I've used of theirs was the Show Car Glaze -- and that was probably 8 years ago. I've just been using products unavailable in stores most of the time, like Stoner, Auto Magic, A.I., etc.
I loved the machine polish for the average neglected finishes and the Cerious for the Mercedes cerami-clears. From what I see, dealerships use wool buffing pads and heavy cut compounds on brand new Mercedes, which just blows my mind and disgusts me. The Cerious tends to make things better for them. Maybe they should join the PDTA. :-)</HTML>
Take care,
Brian
Precision Auto & Marine
Learn to detail boats! Visit www.detailtheboat.com
|
Re: Anyone here use Cerious Compound/Polish yet? February 02, 2005 11:05PM |
<HTML>Menzerna is the OE polish for Mercedes Benz and the Maybach
According to Menzerna USA, I understand for Ceramiclear, the two polishes are PO106 and PO85RD. Both use more expensive abrasives as opposed to Aluminum Oxide. The 106 has more of it than the PO85RD. So one would initiate paint correction with the 106 and follow up with the 85RD. A rep from Menzerna USA could elaborate more about them. I believe they are the only source for these two particular polishes.
I'm a fan of Menzerna overall. I reach for Intensive Polish and Final Polish II most often.</HTML>
According to Menzerna USA, I understand for Ceramiclear, the two polishes are PO106 and PO85RD. Both use more expensive abrasives as opposed to Aluminum Oxide. The 106 has more of it than the PO85RD. So one would initiate paint correction with the 106 and follow up with the 85RD. A rep from Menzerna USA could elaborate more about them. I believe they are the only source for these two particular polishes.
I'm a fan of Menzerna overall. I reach for Intensive Polish and Final Polish II most often.</HTML>
|
Re: Anyone here use Cerious Compound/Polish yet? February 03, 2005 05:48AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 10 |
<HTML>The Cermiclear polishes can only be bought in large quantitives, 5 gallons minimum. I don't do that much volume as this is just a part time thing for to help pay for books and rent for college. I'm also really interested in the Cerious Compound/Polish because in can be used as on regular 1k and 2k clears according to ron. I'll be ordering some blended clear coat cutting pads and genuine lambswool pads once I am ready to make my next order and just use up the sample I have and make my own decision 
But I'd still appreciate any thoughts or experiences they have in using it as a polish.
George</HTML>
But I'd still appreciate any thoughts or experiences they have in using it as a polish.George</HTML>
|
Re: Anyone here use Cerious Compound/Polish yet? February 03, 2005 07:53AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 1,838 |
<HTML>Cerious only in 5 gallons? They come in one pint bottles from my past experience. I'm sure you could get it in 5 gallons like the paint sealant but I know for a fact that the Cerious compound/polish comes in one pint bottles. Good stuff!</HTML>
Take care,
Brian
Precision Auto & Marine
Learn to detail boats! Visit www.detailtheboat.com
Take care,
Brian
Precision Auto & Marine
Learn to detail boats! Visit www.detailtheboat.com
|
Re: Anyone here use Cerious Compound/Polish yet? February 03, 2005 09:04PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 10 |
|
Re: Anyone here use Cerious Compound/Polish yet? February 05, 2005 03:14PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 505 |
<HTML>Cerious is available in pints or gallons, only.
It contains the same basic rare earth as the Menzera, which was apparently, devulged to them by PPG, when we worked with PPG, developing this compound for the Ceramiclear.
Cerious' developement started in late 1999.
Took two years just to get to a product that we felt we could field test, then about a year of field testing.
The Cerious contains no silica, either crystaline or amphous.
The product is 100% bodyshop safe, no silicones, no dimethal oils, no waxes, just a compounding/polishing product.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it all!
It contains the same basic rare earth as the Menzera, which was apparently, devulged to them by PPG, when we worked with PPG, developing this compound for the Ceramiclear.
Cerious' developement started in late 1999.
Took two years just to get to a product that we felt we could field test, then about a year of field testing.
The Cerious contains no silica, either crystaline or amphous.
The product is 100% bodyshop safe, no silicones, no dimethal oils, no waxes, just a compounding/polishing product.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it all!
|
Re: Anyone here use Cerious Compound/Polish yet? February 09, 2005 09:23PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>If you want to learn more about ceramic clear-coats might I suggested you go to www.google.com and type in "ceramic clear coats" there you will find two sites that offer information on this paint system.
The second of the two also provides references toward the end of the information on where to go to get even more information.
I have run across this Menzerna chemical company before and reviewing their website I find that they offer nothing more than any other chemical company in the USA. I think some detailers tend to think that just because it is German it is better than anything in the USA. Not so in my opinion.
I had even called them out on the use of the word "laquer." They told me this was what happens when you translate from German to English.
So far what I have been able to determine is that a ceramic clear is simply a harder clear coat than normal. That being the case, it would be harder to buff.
Silica is normally one of the harder abrasives used, but there could be others used in compounds and will research this and let you know.
Certainly aluminum oxide would not do as an abrasive on a ceramic clear coat as it would be too soft.
Again, as I have always said, no chemical company anywhere in the world has a lock on technology. I am sure that Ron's company, for example, working with all of the OEM's certainly has as good a product line as Merzerna. I know that we do.
By the way, if you all are looking for a high quality dual purpose product please take a look at our 2000 Grit ONE STEP.
This is a combination of the properties of a 2000 grit, light compound and DIAMOND PLUS sealant.
Used with a cutting pad it is a compound and used with a polishing pad it is a one step to buff; polish and protect in one step.
Regards
Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
The second of the two also provides references toward the end of the information on where to go to get even more information.
I have run across this Menzerna chemical company before and reviewing their website I find that they offer nothing more than any other chemical company in the USA. I think some detailers tend to think that just because it is German it is better than anything in the USA. Not so in my opinion.
I had even called them out on the use of the word "laquer." They told me this was what happens when you translate from German to English.
So far what I have been able to determine is that a ceramic clear is simply a harder clear coat than normal. That being the case, it would be harder to buff.
Silica is normally one of the harder abrasives used, but there could be others used in compounds and will research this and let you know.
Certainly aluminum oxide would not do as an abrasive on a ceramic clear coat as it would be too soft.
Again, as I have always said, no chemical company anywhere in the world has a lock on technology. I am sure that Ron's company, for example, working with all of the OEM's certainly has as good a product line as Merzerna. I know that we do.
By the way, if you all are looking for a high quality dual purpose product please take a look at our 2000 Grit ONE STEP.
This is a combination of the properties of a 2000 grit, light compound and DIAMOND PLUS sealant.
Used with a cutting pad it is a compound and used with a polishing pad it is a one step to buff; polish and protect in one step.
Regards
Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
|
Re: Anyone here use Cerious Compound/Polish yet? February 10, 2005 03:20AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 505 |
<HTML>Bud,
As I have shared with a couple of people here, the "real" way that the ceramic part of this clear works, will share with you this much, may you be able to understand the chemical reaction and process.
The "ceramic" portion is in the normal clearcoat, and the total film build of the clear is still only 1. 5 to 2 mil.
During the bake process, the "ceramic" portion of the total resin system, rises to the top portion of the "wet" applied clear material.
This "ceramic" portion is only between 1 and 2 "micron", laying on top of the normal applied clear coat material.
If one is to use "normal" abrasives such as you suggest, and with too much rotary buffer speed, an incorrect pad choice, the very small (1 to 2 micron) of the dense, hard clear, will be quickly removed.
That is why, those of us who work with the paint manufacturers on a regular basis, found it necessary to create entirely new formulations for the coming clear coats.
Simply put, while the compounds that are normally produced will do some work on these new clears, and work very well on older clears, there are some serious concerns to be addressed by anyone picking up a buffer and attempting to correct minor marring.
"You will remove, quickly, the very advantage" of these new clears, using older and commonly accepted compounds.
This will create a "what the hell" is that, why can't I get rid of the mars, swirls, etc.
Simple, you are now into the "sponge" of the clear, as anyone who ever attended the Prep Excellence school was shown.
Wether or not they retained that knowledge is another problem, for them , not me.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it all!
As I have shared with a couple of people here, the "real" way that the ceramic part of this clear works, will share with you this much, may you be able to understand the chemical reaction and process.
The "ceramic" portion is in the normal clearcoat, and the total film build of the clear is still only 1. 5 to 2 mil.
During the bake process, the "ceramic" portion of the total resin system, rises to the top portion of the "wet" applied clear material.
This "ceramic" portion is only between 1 and 2 "micron", laying on top of the normal applied clear coat material.
If one is to use "normal" abrasives such as you suggest, and with too much rotary buffer speed, an incorrect pad choice, the very small (1 to 2 micron) of the dense, hard clear, will be quickly removed.
That is why, those of us who work with the paint manufacturers on a regular basis, found it necessary to create entirely new formulations for the coming clear coats.
Simply put, while the compounds that are normally produced will do some work on these new clears, and work very well on older clears, there are some serious concerns to be addressed by anyone picking up a buffer and attempting to correct minor marring.
"You will remove, quickly, the very advantage" of these new clears, using older and commonly accepted compounds.
This will create a "what the hell" is that, why can't I get rid of the mars, swirls, etc.
Simple, you are now into the "sponge" of the clear, as anyone who ever attended the Prep Excellence school was shown.
Wether or not they retained that knowledge is another problem, for them , not me.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it all!
|
Re: Anyone here use Cerious Compound/Polish yet? February 10, 2005 04:20AM |
<HTML>Ah, this is great!
Frank conversation about chemical content and process.I've been hoping for more of this for a while. I'm very interested in it. Bud and Ron, please keep it coming.
I use Menzerna because I have been impressed with the results. ( bearing in mind no product is a substitute for mastery of proper technique) It's German origin didn't wow me, I decided to start using it based on testimonial. This time, doing so seems successful.
I'm definitely going to keep Cerious in mind as well.</HTML>
Frank conversation about chemical content and process.I've been hoping for more of this for a while. I'm very interested in it. Bud and Ron, please keep it coming.
I use Menzerna because I have been impressed with the results. ( bearing in mind no product is a substitute for mastery of proper technique) It's German origin didn't wow me, I decided to start using it based on testimonial. This time, doing so seems successful.
I'm definitely going to keep Cerious in mind as well.</HTML>
|
Re: Anyone here use Cerious Compound/Polish yet? February 10, 2005 05:35AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
|
Re: Anyone here use Cerious Compound/Polish yet? February 10, 2005 02:04PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 17 |
<HTML>To All..... we not only work with paint manufacturers, we ARE a paint manufacturer. Think of the ceramic clears as being somewhat similar to metalflake paints only substituting ceramic material in place of the metalflake. It is a very difficult process that requires special binders and balancers in the paint formulation. As with metalflake, the spraying and curing process have to be done correctly to achieve the desired effect. So far these new type of clears are only being developed at the OEM level. We will be investigating it's potential for the aftermarket ( i.e. dealerships, body shops, etc). The main marketing emphasis on the ceramic clears is centered around "scratch resistance". Obviously a harder surface or a more slippery surface would provide this desired attribute. In the case of ceramic it is a harder surface. Therefore, any compound developed to work on this surface must have the proper balance of hardness and size in the abrasives that are utilized. With all of the hundreds (maybe thousands) of compounds & polishes currently on the market, I am quite sure there are ones out there that will work just fine. I already know that we have some that will. Anyone touting the development of "special" compunds to work on "special" clears is taking a marketing and sales approach , as opposed to a chemical fact approach to selling product. Everyone should pay attention to these forums because someone will quickly find products on the market that work well and pass along the info for all to use. Have fun and wishing you all tremendous business success in the coming year!
The Chemist</HTML>
The Chemist</HTML>
|
Re: Anyone here use Cerious Compound/Polish yet? February 10, 2005 02:50PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 641 |
<HTML>Sort of correct, Phantom Chemist.
Sort of correct, but you blew it with the reference substituting metal flake, etc.
The "ceramic" part of the clear, which was originally developed by BASF, but not carried forward, and PPG is now the only OEM supplier of this technology, is, as you stated, part of the clear's resin system.
From what has been shared with AI by Juzyk, Schoff and Zadroga at PPG, as well as Fred Wissemann, from Dupont, the bringing to market of a refinish ceramic is still a long ways off.
This being due to the requirement of the high heat used to cure OEM clears, vs the aerboic cure of refinish.
What they are saying is that without the heat, the "ceramic" additive will not rise to the top of the clear and create the "hardness" desired.
As far as "compounds", yes there are some out there that will work, and they are many that are just too agressive and will remove the 1 or 2 micron of the clear, which contains the ceramic additive.
That is the concern, lack of true knowledge, lack of understanding of the differences of this new technology.
A rather large concern, for as time passes, there will be many more vehicles coming out of the plants with this new technology, and wether or not the service support part of the industry is ready to care for it properly.
Oh, and I don't hide behind some "name" that has no documentation, you ought to come out in the open some time, daylight is great, shows all the imperfections, for all to see.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it at all!
Sort of correct, but you blew it with the reference substituting metal flake, etc.
The "ceramic" part of the clear, which was originally developed by BASF, but not carried forward, and PPG is now the only OEM supplier of this technology, is, as you stated, part of the clear's resin system.
From what has been shared with AI by Juzyk, Schoff and Zadroga at PPG, as well as Fred Wissemann, from Dupont, the bringing to market of a refinish ceramic is still a long ways off.
This being due to the requirement of the high heat used to cure OEM clears, vs the aerboic cure of refinish.
What they are saying is that without the heat, the "ceramic" additive will not rise to the top of the clear and create the "hardness" desired.
As far as "compounds", yes there are some out there that will work, and they are many that are just too agressive and will remove the 1 or 2 micron of the clear, which contains the ceramic additive.
That is the concern, lack of true knowledge, lack of understanding of the differences of this new technology.
A rather large concern, for as time passes, there will be many more vehicles coming out of the plants with this new technology, and wether or not the service support part of the industry is ready to care for it properly.
Oh, and I don't hide behind some "name" that has no documentation, you ought to come out in the open some time, daylight is great, shows all the imperfections, for all to see.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it at all!
|
Re: Anyone here use Cerious Compound/Polish yet? February 10, 2005 03:29PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 17 |
<HTML>Well Ron, Ron, Ron... there you go again worrying about who I am rather than the facts presented. Thanks though for coming over to my side on the information concerning compounds. Noone cares that some company states they spent two years developing a "special" compound. That would be ineptitude at it's greatest..... and just another of those marketing/sales banters to lure in potential unsuspecting , hard working, detailers. i.e. if it took two years to develop it must be "really special". Yeah right.
Anyway.... I didn't "blow" anything as you so eloquently put it. My only reason for mentioning metalflake was because most people out there know the difficulty in manufacturing and applying metalflake paints. My reference to that in no way signified that ceramic clears were formulated like metalflakes...only that they will also require the diligent manufacturing and application that metalflakes require. That's all.
Because of the curing process needed for some of the new clears...it will be quite the challenge to overcome that for the aftermarket. But that's the fun of being a chemist. I get to do research at solving those problems.
I'm not hiding..... just presenting unbiased facts to help others that read these forums. Unlike you, I don't spend my days and nights "name dropping" to impress others. I know at least one technical manager in every major paint company in the US, and several others in the world. I don't find the need to continually tell people about it to impress them with "who I know". Lets just provide information to help others out there and quit trying to sell yourself and your company. It's why I choose to remain anonymous.
The Chemist</HTML>
Anyway.... I didn't "blow" anything as you so eloquently put it. My only reason for mentioning metalflake was because most people out there know the difficulty in manufacturing and applying metalflake paints. My reference to that in no way signified that ceramic clears were formulated like metalflakes...only that they will also require the diligent manufacturing and application that metalflakes require. That's all.
Because of the curing process needed for some of the new clears...it will be quite the challenge to overcome that for the aftermarket. But that's the fun of being a chemist. I get to do research at solving those problems.
I'm not hiding..... just presenting unbiased facts to help others that read these forums. Unlike you, I don't spend my days and nights "name dropping" to impress others. I know at least one technical manager in every major paint company in the US, and several others in the world. I don't find the need to continually tell people about it to impress them with "who I know". Lets just provide information to help others out there and quit trying to sell yourself and your company. It's why I choose to remain anonymous.
The Chemist</HTML>
|
Re: Anyone here use Cerious Compound/Polish yet? February 10, 2005 03:47PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 641 |
<HTML>Well then, why are you confusing the readers even more by using old, outdated and incorrect references to what the "flakes" are.
"metal" has not been used at OEM level for years, to attain that basecoat finish.
All use mica today to obtain that look.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it at all!
"metal" has not been used at OEM level for years, to attain that basecoat finish.
All use mica today to obtain that look.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it at all!
|
Re: Anyone here use Cerious Compound/Polish yet? February 10, 2005 04:44PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 17 |
<HTML>Just have to try and dig...... Come on Ron. Stop boring the audience with your efforts to attack me. Move on. Everyone is familiar with "metalflake". That's why I used it as an example. No one said it was popular today; no one said mica was, or was not popular. Stop your foolish "harrassing nature", and move on. You offer some good advice from time to time...concentrate on that and not me. It's a waste of your valuable time.
The Chemist</HTML>
The Chemist</HTML>
|
Re: Anyone here use Cerious Compound/Polish yet? February 10, 2005 10:04PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 64 |
<HTML>What manufactures are currently using the Cermiclear on thier current models? Is it limited to the imports? What do you feel is the furture with the process?</HTML>
Renny Doyle
Attention To Details
Aircraft & Auto Detailing
www.detailingsuccess.com
Proud Detailers of Air Force One!
PDTA Member
Renny Doyle
Attention To Details
Aircraft & Auto Detailing
www.detailingsuccess.com
Proud Detailers of Air Force One!
PDTA Member
|
Re: Anyone here use Cerious Compound/Polish yet? February 10, 2005 10:50PM |
|
Re: Anyone here use Cerious Compound/Polish yet? February 11, 2005 04:11AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 505 |
<HTML>As Bill stated, at this point, only M/B, gets the PPG CeramiClear.
However, since many manufacturers around the world have contracts with other OEM suppliers, they are not able to make a switch to this technology.
Based upon what I know, it appears that other DaimlerChrysler units will be the next in line, but only on high end vehicles.
It is also my understanding, based upon the past few years of working with PPG on this system, that for an assembly plant to apply the paint system will require some expensive modifications to not only the robot bell systems, but the bake process.
No change in a plant's paint kitchen is cheap, and that may well create some reluctance for making the change while corporate profits are being squeezed today.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it all!
However, since many manufacturers around the world have contracts with other OEM suppliers, they are not able to make a switch to this technology.
Based upon what I know, it appears that other DaimlerChrysler units will be the next in line, but only on high end vehicles.
It is also my understanding, based upon the past few years of working with PPG on this system, that for an assembly plant to apply the paint system will require some expensive modifications to not only the robot bell systems, but the bake process.
No change in a plant's paint kitchen is cheap, and that may well create some reluctance for making the change while corporate profits are being squeezed today.
Ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it all!
|
Re: Anyone here use Cerious Compound/Polish yet? February 11, 2005 06:10AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 10 |
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.