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Removal of swirls and scratches
Posted by samuel
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Removal of swirls and scratches February 27, 2005 07:15AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 26 |
<HTML>This is by far one of the most common surface imperfection that I'm quite often confronted with. I've carried out different experiments and spoke with some knowledgable detailers and chemical salesmen. Here are my observation:
1. Many so called polishes contain abrasives that level the clearcoats while removing surface imperfection leaving behind swirls when used with high speed polisher.
2. The most culpable pad is black compounding foam - while effective at removing a lot of surface imperfections it quickly leaves swirls when used with polishes with medium to high abrasives.
3. The so called white finishing pad can quickly leave swirls at high speed if the foam is dry or the polishes contain high abrasives.
4. One polish I've had great sucess with in removing swirls, slow but gentle enough on the paint is Klasse AIO- though expensive, the manufacturer claims it has chemical cleaner and not abrasives in it. I used AIO with white finishing pad on Makita to remove swirls left by another detailer on 2 lexus, 3 black Honder Civic and 3 Black Mercerdes.
5. Most of the scrath out products such as Meguire scratch X would leave fine horizontal scratches when used by hand to remove scratches or swirls.
I strongly feel chemical makers and automotive paint manufacturer should set up a common protocol by which detailers will carry out paint imperfection correction, and every detailer should be schooled on both right chemical, pad, and technique.
Pllease share with me your experience- what has worked for you? From chemical to pad and approaches I'm eager to try it out and document its success and share with Pro detailers in my area who are desirious of learning new things from others.
Thank you</HTML>
1. Many so called polishes contain abrasives that level the clearcoats while removing surface imperfection leaving behind swirls when used with high speed polisher.
2. The most culpable pad is black compounding foam - while effective at removing a lot of surface imperfections it quickly leaves swirls when used with polishes with medium to high abrasives.
3. The so called white finishing pad can quickly leave swirls at high speed if the foam is dry or the polishes contain high abrasives.
4. One polish I've had great sucess with in removing swirls, slow but gentle enough on the paint is Klasse AIO- though expensive, the manufacturer claims it has chemical cleaner and not abrasives in it. I used AIO with white finishing pad on Makita to remove swirls left by another detailer on 2 lexus, 3 black Honder Civic and 3 Black Mercerdes.
5. Most of the scrath out products such as Meguire scratch X would leave fine horizontal scratches when used by hand to remove scratches or swirls.
I strongly feel chemical makers and automotive paint manufacturer should set up a common protocol by which detailers will carry out paint imperfection correction, and every detailer should be schooled on both right chemical, pad, and technique.
Pllease share with me your experience- what has worked for you? From chemical to pad and approaches I'm eager to try it out and document its success and share with Pro detailers in my area who are desirious of learning new things from others.
Thank you</HTML>
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Re: Removal of swirls and scratches February 27, 2005 05:30PM |
<HTML> Which specific brands of pads are you using? Is the black compounding pad a 3m waffle weave pad and is the white finishing pad a Lake Country?
I never had any luck getting AIO to actually remove swirls. Cleaning oxidation and leaving a very bright finish ( due to its long lasting acrylic sealant content)---yes.
Most I know of reserve it as a next-to last step type product.
It would be nice to see a universal protocol but I wouldn't hold my breath. I just get to learn nuances of specific product lines</HTML>
I never had any luck getting AIO to actually remove swirls. Cleaning oxidation and leaving a very bright finish ( due to its long lasting acrylic sealant content)---yes.
Most I know of reserve it as a next-to last step type product.
It would be nice to see a universal protocol but I wouldn't hold my breath. I just get to learn nuances of specific product lines</HTML>
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Re: Removal of swirls and scratches February 27, 2005 10:43PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 466 |
<HTML>Without seeing pictures of the car it is hard to give you an answer. What you call "swirls" may not be swirls at all but halo scratches or what other pros call "spider webbing".
If they are swirls then you will most likely not remove them by hand with ScratchX nor with AIO.
I would be more opt to using Meguiars DACP than ScratchX.....and you need to use a finishing pad before using a polishing pad, always go with the least abrasive pad/product combo first. I also would ask what pads are you using, 3M. Meguiars, Lake Country?
Anthony</HTML>
Details, Details, Details....It's all in the details!
www.UltimateReflections.NET
If they are swirls then you will most likely not remove them by hand with ScratchX nor with AIO.
I would be more opt to using Meguiars DACP than ScratchX.....and you need to use a finishing pad before using a polishing pad, always go with the least abrasive pad/product combo first. I also would ask what pads are you using, 3M. Meguiars, Lake Country?
Anthony</HTML>
Details, Details, Details....It's all in the details!
www.UltimateReflections.NET
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Re: Removal of swirls and scratches February 28, 2005 06:48AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 26 |
<HTML>The gentleman who distributes products for many detailing products' manufacturers here in Sacramento has different types of pads color coded with weaves that seem to look alike. He has his foam pads that he says comforms to industry standards. It's hard to tell the quality of these pads until perhaps one tries them out. In the absense of true industry standards ..I guess one has to take each maker for their words.
However, because of the high incidence of swirls, scratches and spider webs, coupled with numerous claims by pad and chemical makers, the best way to go about it is to share experiences with other detailers, try out their tech/chemical and pad. And when you do find one or two that work for you stay with them.
My goal of bringing this up is to share my experience that worked in those cases I mentioned, but might not work in other more serious cases. I would appreciate it if some of you guys would share with me what Pad Chemical combo has worked for you.
Thank you all</HTML>
However, because of the high incidence of swirls, scratches and spider webs, coupled with numerous claims by pad and chemical makers, the best way to go about it is to share experiences with other detailers, try out their tech/chemical and pad. And when you do find one or two that work for you stay with them.
My goal of bringing this up is to share my experience that worked in those cases I mentioned, but might not work in other more serious cases. I would appreciate it if some of you guys would share with me what Pad Chemical combo has worked for you.
Thank you all</HTML>
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Re: Removal of swirls and scratches February 28, 2005 01:55PM |
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Re: Removal of swirls and scratches March 01, 2005 01:23AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 466 |
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Re: Removal of swirls and scratches March 01, 2005 04:52AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 7 |
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Re: Removal of swirls and scratches March 01, 2005 05:51AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 894 |
<HTML>This might sound a little off, but I think us detailers have a hard time with swirls because of the time it takes to do the job right. No way around it, it takes 4-5 hours of wetsanding and/or buffing to have no halograms and an even flat finish on a typical sedan. I dont know about you guys, but this is how long it takes me for flawless results on a darker colored car when the job begins with heavy compound.
You can use any compound and polish system(meguars, 3m, menzerna, etc..) with a rotary, the cleanest pads, the proper pads for the product, and a clean surface to work on, it still going to take effort, patience,and frustration to get flawless results, yes even with experience.
Just my take on polishing.
Dan Draper
DRAPERSAUTOIMAGERY.com</HTML>
You can use any compound and polish system(meguars, 3m, menzerna, etc..) with a rotary, the cleanest pads, the proper pads for the product, and a clean surface to work on, it still going to take effort, patience,and frustration to get flawless results, yes even with experience.
Just my take on polishing.
Dan Draper
DRAPERSAUTOIMAGERY.com</HTML>
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Re: Removal of swirls and scratches March 01, 2005 07:03AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 26 |
<HTML>Thank you guys, I worked on a Honda Civic - black, on monday I removed paint of over spray with clay, and went on to finish with Klasse AIO with my polisher. I left swirls in the finish which you cannot see in the shade but becomes obvious in the sunlight. The guy is very picky threatning that he will not allow me to use any abrasive polish on his car that he's going to have the paint digitally measured after I remove the swirls just to be sure that I did not level down his paint. I remain calm as I assure him I'm going to order the right product for the job. I've just ordered Lake country pads and Manzerna polish which many say provide the best result in removing swirls.
thank you for sharing your experience, I shall let you how it turns out after I recieve the product and schedule his car for this procedure.
Sam</HTML>
thank you for sharing your experience, I shall let you how it turns out after I recieve the product and schedule his car for this procedure.
Sam</HTML>
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Re: Removal of swirls and scratches March 01, 2005 03:46PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 894 |
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Re: Removal of swirls and scratches March 01, 2005 04:18PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 466 |
<HTML>I disagree. You can't remove swirls in the paint WITHOUT also removing some paint, sure it may be a micro layer, but you are still removing paint.
The critical area is not to remove the layer where the UV protectors reside.
To measure your paint though with a paint meter to make sure no paint has been removed but to then also want the swirls/scratches removed BUT to then also not want any "abrasive" products used on your paint is ilogical..absurd!
This Honda owner has no idea what paint correction is so I suggest you educate Mr. Honda. Tel him you can fix the paint but you MUST abrade away a micro layer of paint. If he says NO then tell him you can then fill and hide them with a glaze as best as you can. If he still says NO then you need to tell him to make up his mind, he can't have it both ways.
Also, what machines are you using? Rotary, orbitals (Cyclo, PC)?
Thanks,
Anthony</HTML>
Details, Details, Details....It's all in the details!
www.UltimateReflections.NET
The critical area is not to remove the layer where the UV protectors reside.
To measure your paint though with a paint meter to make sure no paint has been removed but to then also want the swirls/scratches removed BUT to then also not want any "abrasive" products used on your paint is ilogical..absurd!
This Honda owner has no idea what paint correction is so I suggest you educate Mr. Honda. Tel him you can fix the paint but you MUST abrade away a micro layer of paint. If he says NO then tell him you can then fill and hide them with a glaze as best as you can. If he still says NO then you need to tell him to make up his mind, he can't have it both ways.
Also, what machines are you using? Rotary, orbitals (Cyclo, PC)?
Thanks,
Anthony</HTML>
Details, Details, Details....It's all in the details!
www.UltimateReflections.NET
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Re: Removal of swirls and scratches March 01, 2005 05:31PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 894 |
<HTML>Anthony, I agree with you 100%, but Sam did far from "leveling" the clear coat with Klasse AIO, even if he used a rotary buffer. It sounds like the pad he used was not soft enough or the finish was contaminated with dirt while he was buffing in the Klasse. He will have to remove some paint to correct what he did, though, if thats what you mean.
Dan Draper
DRAPERSAUTOIMAGERY.com</HTML>
Dan Draper
DRAPERSAUTOIMAGERY.com</HTML>
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Re: Removal of swirls and scratches March 01, 2005 07:18PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 466 |
<HTML>Hey Dan......please don't take my post as one directed towards you, as in me telling you that you're in error. Not my intention at all and yes you are right, not much paint would be removed with AIO, unless he used it with a cutting pad of some sort!
My rant was directed more towards the demands of some people on detailers even though they have no clue what they are talking about.
Take care,
Anthony</HTML>
Details, Details, Details....It's all in the details!
www.UltimateReflections.NET
My rant was directed more towards the demands of some people on detailers even though they have no clue what they are talking about.
Take care,
Anthony</HTML>
Details, Details, Details....It's all in the details!
www.UltimateReflections.NET
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Re: Removal of swirls and scratches March 01, 2005 07:34PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 26 |
<HTML>Thank you Dan and Anthony,
I certainly appreciate your insight on this matter. I used makita high speed polisher and AIO on this car. My strong suspicion is the pad that I bought from the local detail store I think the pad is too hard even though he says it conforms to the best in the industry. Because come to think of it AIO is not abrasive as to have left swirls. However, it will take five days to recieve Lake Country polishing pads and Mazerna intensive polish I ordered from Topoftheline. I'm going to schedule him for sometime next week when it's going to be sunny so that I can get to observe the progress in the sunlight and take the car back in the shade to work on it. Any other suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
sam</HTML>
I certainly appreciate your insight on this matter. I used makita high speed polisher and AIO on this car. My strong suspicion is the pad that I bought from the local detail store I think the pad is too hard even though he says it conforms to the best in the industry. Because come to think of it AIO is not abrasive as to have left swirls. However, it will take five days to recieve Lake Country polishing pads and Mazerna intensive polish I ordered from Topoftheline. I'm going to schedule him for sometime next week when it's going to be sunny so that I can get to observe the progress in the sunlight and take the car back in the shade to work on it. Any other suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
sam</HTML>
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Re: Removal of swirls and scratches March 01, 2005 08:41PM |
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Re: Removal of swirls and scratches March 02, 2005 12:21AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 51 |
<HTML>Quot: Pllease share with me your experience- what has worked for you? From chemical to pad and approaches I'm eager to try it out and document its success and share with Pro detailers in my area who are desirious of learning new things from others.
The fine print, I'm not a pro detailer (justadumbarchitect) FWIW here is what LC foam pad I use with X product
Foam Pad Selection:
Polish / Cutting Pad (*Yellow)-a harder more dense foam composition with an abrasive cutting action, for use with a medium abrasive polish, Machine Polish 1 or 2, Swirl Mark Remover, or Autoglym Paint Renovator Polish (Speed number 4-5)
Polish / Light Cutting Pad (*Orange)-a mid range, high density foam composition with a medium abrasive cutting action, for use with a Swirl Mark Remover, Pre-Wax Paint Cleaner, Klasse All-In-One, or Autoglym Super Resin Polish (Speed number 4)
Polish / Waxing Pad (*White)-a softer less dense foam composition with a light abrasive cutting action, for use with a Swirl Mark Remover, Pre-Wax Paint Cleaner, Klasse All-In-One, or Autoglym Super Resin Polish (Speed number 4)
Finishing Pad (*Black)-an ultra-smooth foam that has no abrasive cutting ability, for use with Klasse High Sealant Gloss, Autoglym Extra Gloss Protection, Zanio Z-2 or Z-5 or a Glaze (Speed number 3)
Levelling Pad (Wool):
Are made from ¾-inch 100% natural lambs wool (do not use synthetic wool) are usually used to level a paint film surface with an abrasive machine polish (compound) or to apply a polish to large areas
Wool pads used wet or dry have the greatest cutting ability and they also produce the most paint surface `compounding haze'
*The foam pad colour identifications and specifications are by Lake County Manufacturing (LC) www.lakecountrymfg.com other manufactures of foam pads use a different colour to identify the abrasiveness or cutting ability of their foam pads
JonM</HTML>
[ each one / teach one, then student /becomes teacher ]
The fine print, I'm not a pro detailer (justadumbarchitect) FWIW here is what LC foam pad I use with X product
Foam Pad Selection:
Polish / Cutting Pad (*Yellow)-a harder more dense foam composition with an abrasive cutting action, for use with a medium abrasive polish, Machine Polish 1 or 2, Swirl Mark Remover, or Autoglym Paint Renovator Polish (Speed number 4-5)
Polish / Light Cutting Pad (*Orange)-a mid range, high density foam composition with a medium abrasive cutting action, for use with a Swirl Mark Remover, Pre-Wax Paint Cleaner, Klasse All-In-One, or Autoglym Super Resin Polish (Speed number 4)
Polish / Waxing Pad (*White)-a softer less dense foam composition with a light abrasive cutting action, for use with a Swirl Mark Remover, Pre-Wax Paint Cleaner, Klasse All-In-One, or Autoglym Super Resin Polish (Speed number 4)
Finishing Pad (*Black)-an ultra-smooth foam that has no abrasive cutting ability, for use with Klasse High Sealant Gloss, Autoglym Extra Gloss Protection, Zanio Z-2 or Z-5 or a Glaze (Speed number 3)
Levelling Pad (Wool):
Are made from ¾-inch 100% natural lambs wool (do not use synthetic wool) are usually used to level a paint film surface with an abrasive machine polish (compound) or to apply a polish to large areas
Wool pads used wet or dry have the greatest cutting ability and they also produce the most paint surface `compounding haze'
*The foam pad colour identifications and specifications are by Lake County Manufacturing (LC) www.lakecountrymfg.com other manufactures of foam pads use a different colour to identify the abrasiveness or cutting ability of their foam pads
JonM</HTML>
[ each one / teach one, then student /becomes teacher ]
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Re: Removal of swirls and scratches March 03, 2005 01:07AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 2 |
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Re: Removal of swirls and scratches March 03, 2005 01:43AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 894 |
<HTML>The waffle pads are made by 3m, from what I remember, they were used to provide foam cutting action while reducing excessive heat to the clear coat. Its all preference. I like the edge 2000 pads myself, but some people like the waffle. I used to use the waffes, but they dont last too long and 3m products are expensive. Pretty much everything 3m has is expensive be it some putty glaze, masking tape, and anything body shop related, it usually is good stuff though.
Dan Draper
DRAPERSAUTOIMAGERY.com</HTML>
Dan Draper
DRAPERSAUTOIMAGERY.com</HTML>
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Re: Removal of swirls and scratches March 04, 2005 11:52PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 45 |
<HTML>I'de make a note of this guy, picture, name, etc. and don't deal with the jerk again. Did he gage and document the thickness of the paint b 4 he came in? Where is he going to get a $1000 electronic paint thickness gage anyhow? I would send him down the road to my competition and let them waste their time on him. U can't please the unreasonable lame brains!</HTML>
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Re: Removal of swirls and scratches July 28, 2006 03:10PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 1 |
I paint my own cars about one per year. I have and use 3m perfect-it 3 compound and finesse-it with 3m waffle compoud pad and a black polishing pad. My problem is after I wet sand and I use 1500 paper I will compound with my buffer and then polish and it looks great, But give it a few days or a week and I see the sand marks and hazing coming back. I then will repeat the buffing and It all happens again over time. What am I doing wrong?
rtwelch@alltel.net
rtwelch@alltel.net
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Re: Removal of swirls and scratches July 28, 2006 03:24PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 466 |
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Re: Removal of swirls and scratches July 28, 2006 04:04PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 118 |
RTWTDW:
What is happening is you are not eliminating all of the wet sanding marks when you compound and they will keep re-appearing until you eliminate them. Also always finish your wet-sanding w/2000 or 2500 if you can. first you must have enough paint to work with. You need to have good lighting and check your work as you go, one panel at a time. Use a mixture of ISO/rubbing alcohol and water to check you work, this removes any filling or residues on the surface. If you really like using 3M, then after compounding with a light to medium compound try 3M part # 05992 for the elimination of swirls w/finishing pad, last paint seal or wax.
Detailing, An Art In Motion!
What is happening is you are not eliminating all of the wet sanding marks when you compound and they will keep re-appearing until you eliminate them. Also always finish your wet-sanding w/2000 or 2500 if you can. first you must have enough paint to work with. You need to have good lighting and check your work as you go, one panel at a time. Use a mixture of ISO/rubbing alcohol and water to check you work, this removes any filling or residues on the surface. If you really like using 3M, then after compounding with a light to medium compound try 3M part # 05992 for the elimination of swirls w/finishing pad, last paint seal or wax.
Detailing, An Art In Motion!
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Re: Removal of swirls and scratches July 28, 2006 04:50PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 641 |
Steven,
Try the new ValuGard Fini Finishing System, with the Cerious compound/polish and the Fast Finish, you will really see them gone!
Instructions are on our website, www.autoint.com
Detailers and dealerships, bodyshops, that have went over to this new system are very, very happy and it is very cost effective.
Ketch
Do it right or don't do it at all!
Try the new ValuGard Fini Finishing System, with the Cerious compound/polish and the Fast Finish, you will really see them gone!
Instructions are on our website, www.autoint.com
Detailers and dealerships, bodyshops, that have went over to this new system are very, very happy and it is very cost effective.
Ketch
Do it right or don't do it at all!
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Re: Removal of swirls and scratches July 29, 2006 06:18AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
When you paint you need to spray at least 2.75 to 3.0 mils of clear to have sufficient film to wet sand.
When you wet/dry sand as was mentioned, finish with a lighter grit sandpaper to help remove some of the heavier scratches.
Then you must buff with a heavier compound such as a 800 or even a 600 grit compound to get the scratches out of the paint.
You might even need to go to a 2000 grit or Micro fine to really smooth out the paint.
Then a swirl remover, not filler, to get the final touch.
Being a new paint it must cure for at least 60 to 90 days before any wax, sealant or anything with silicone can be put on the paint.
Through this process you use a Rotary Buffer; wool, poly/wool and foam cutting pads and finish off with a polishing pad and swirl remover.
Hope that helps.
Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS
buda
When you wet/dry sand as was mentioned, finish with a lighter grit sandpaper to help remove some of the heavier scratches.
Then you must buff with a heavier compound such as a 800 or even a 600 grit compound to get the scratches out of the paint.
You might even need to go to a 2000 grit or Micro fine to really smooth out the paint.
Then a swirl remover, not filler, to get the final touch.
Being a new paint it must cure for at least 60 to 90 days before any wax, sealant or anything with silicone can be put on the paint.
Through this process you use a Rotary Buffer; wool, poly/wool and foam cutting pads and finish off with a polishing pad and swirl remover.
Hope that helps.
Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS
buda
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Re: Removal of swirls and scratches July 29, 2006 03:32PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 118 |
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Re: Removal of swirls and scratches August 06, 2006 07:55PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 1,182 |
Ecodetail:
Hoizontal scratches from using Scratch-X ?
Scratch-X has diminishing abrasives and must be worked in well to break the abrasive down. It should be used in a circular motion with a pure cotton towel or microfiber. It sounds as if you are using the product incorrectly. Re-read the directions and see if I'm right. You should not need Scratch-X at all if you use professional line Meguiar's products such as Diamond Cut Compound.
It is unclear whether you are dealing with scratches, cobwebbing scratches, sanding marks or swirl marks. At any rate, proper application of Meguiar's or Auto Magic products will produce a flawless finish.
You can try priming your pad with a little Body Shine or Final Inspection to lubricate it for the buffing. You indicate you did your final polishing with a rotary, which works if it is done right...but you could try using an orbital for the final polishing and eliminate the chance of adding swirls.
Check the Meguiar's and AM sites for instruction on buffing.
Doug Delmont
" It is always good to be smarter than you appear. The easiest way to accomplish this is to act dumber than you are."
Hoizontal scratches from using Scratch-X ?
Scratch-X has diminishing abrasives and must be worked in well to break the abrasive down. It should be used in a circular motion with a pure cotton towel or microfiber. It sounds as if you are using the product incorrectly. Re-read the directions and see if I'm right. You should not need Scratch-X at all if you use professional line Meguiar's products such as Diamond Cut Compound.
It is unclear whether you are dealing with scratches, cobwebbing scratches, sanding marks or swirl marks. At any rate, proper application of Meguiar's or Auto Magic products will produce a flawless finish.
You can try priming your pad with a little Body Shine or Final Inspection to lubricate it for the buffing. You indicate you did your final polishing with a rotary, which works if it is done right...but you could try using an orbital for the final polishing and eliminate the chance of adding swirls.
Check the Meguiar's and AM sites for instruction on buffing.
Doug Delmont
" It is always good to be smarter than you appear. The easiest way to accomplish this is to act dumber than you are."
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Re: Removal of swirls and scratches May 11, 2011 04:41PM |
Registered: 14 years ago Posts: 689 |
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