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Ron K - Say Want You Want!!!
Posted by Bud Abraham
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Ron K - Say Want You Want!!! May 12, 2005 03:09PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Ron:
Say what you want to discredit the test that I had done on 25 different polishes and waxes used by detailers in the USA and Canada, while it is not perfect, it was certainly far more accurate than the Guru Report.
Could it be that you were not happy with the results as far as your company's product was concerned? As you recall, the Valu Guard product tested very well for reflective shine but was very poor in resistence to salt water corrosion.
This is not strange in that ingredients used to enhance shine take away from durablity and those that enhance durablity take away from shine.
A chemist has their work cut out for them to formulate a product that can offer both reflective gloss and durablity, but it can be done.
Further, I personally resent your inference that I would jeopardize my reputation and my company's reputation to conduct a test that would be in the least bit slanted to enhance our product.
There was no intent to do that with this test other than present an objective analysis of various products.
It seems to me that you are spending a lot of time trying to discredit a test in which your product faired poorly in terms of durability.
CHALLENGE
Since you are so concerned about the objectivity of the test and who conducted it, while your company does not offer to do the simliar tests I challenge you personally and your company to submit your best off the shelf product vs DIAMOND PLUS, to a gloss, durability and corrosion resistence test conductec by a neutral testing laboratory agreed upon by both companies.
You can set the "protocols" that you so often refer to.
Let me know and we can then reveal the results here on the forum and to the public thru ads in the detail magazines.
Regards
Bud Abraham
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
Say what you want to discredit the test that I had done on 25 different polishes and waxes used by detailers in the USA and Canada, while it is not perfect, it was certainly far more accurate than the Guru Report.
Could it be that you were not happy with the results as far as your company's product was concerned? As you recall, the Valu Guard product tested very well for reflective shine but was very poor in resistence to salt water corrosion.
This is not strange in that ingredients used to enhance shine take away from durablity and those that enhance durablity take away from shine.
A chemist has their work cut out for them to formulate a product that can offer both reflective gloss and durablity, but it can be done.
Further, I personally resent your inference that I would jeopardize my reputation and my company's reputation to conduct a test that would be in the least bit slanted to enhance our product.
There was no intent to do that with this test other than present an objective analysis of various products.
It seems to me that you are spending a lot of time trying to discredit a test in which your product faired poorly in terms of durability.
CHALLENGE
Since you are so concerned about the objectivity of the test and who conducted it, while your company does not offer to do the simliar tests I challenge you personally and your company to submit your best off the shelf product vs DIAMOND PLUS, to a gloss, durability and corrosion resistence test conductec by a neutral testing laboratory agreed upon by both companies.
You can set the "protocols" that you so often refer to.
Let me know and we can then reveal the results here on the forum and to the public thru ads in the detail magazines.
Regards
Bud Abraham
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
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Re: Ron K - Say Want You Want!!! May 12, 2005 06:44PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 1,838 |
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Re: Ron K - Say Want You Want!!! May 12, 2005 08:20PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>As should have your post to me, Brian. You constantly forget that as "Chairman" of the Professional Technicians Detail Association you are obligated to a position of neutrality.
You might be a detailer, but as Chairman, you cannot do is not neutral.
That said, I would have posted Mr Ketcham directly but he has used this forum to publicly discredit me, my company and the test.
How would you expect me to respond? Like a humble Christian and turn the other cheek?
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
You might be a detailer, but as Chairman, you cannot do is not neutral.
That said, I would have posted Mr Ketcham directly but he has used this forum to publicly discredit me, my company and the test.
How would you expect me to respond? Like a humble Christian and turn the other cheek?
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
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Re: Ron K - Say Want You Want!!! May 12, 2005 08:43PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 73 |
<HTML>i dont usually speak for others,but i for one have had enough of the bud vs ron he said she said saga.i believe both of you are good for the industry but you seem to have alot in common with my seven year old lol.just kidding but woulnt be great if you could work together.and on a personal note i would be more than happy to provide a steel cage and referee and settle this like men.hoa-ya..........................</HTML>
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Re: Ron K - Say Want You Want!!! May 12, 2005 09:32PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Dave:
Amen, I agree with you completely. I apologize for taking this personal contorversy with Mr Ketcham, but when he attacks the creditabilty of me personally and materials we offer publicly to not defend one's self is to admit the attack is correct.
It is clear what his intent is and it has to do with me personally and what we do.
Having said this, I will not again respond to anything that Mr Ketcham posts relating to me or my company. If necessary I will post to him personally as I have "axe" to grind with him or his company.
Thank you again for a nice post.
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
Amen, I agree with you completely. I apologize for taking this personal contorversy with Mr Ketcham, but when he attacks the creditabilty of me personally and materials we offer publicly to not defend one's self is to admit the attack is correct.
It is clear what his intent is and it has to do with me personally and what we do.
Having said this, I will not again respond to anything that Mr Ketcham posts relating to me or my company. If necessary I will post to him personally as I have "axe" to grind with him or his company.
Thank you again for a nice post.
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
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Re: Ron K - Say Want You Want!!! May 12, 2005 11:15PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 241 |
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Re: Ron K - Say Want You Want!!! May 12, 2005 11:50PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 241 |
<HTML>Bud,
As the facts show, the test was "tilted" to make one product show better performance.
That is shown by the "cure" time and your Ms. Hitti's response of "we did what the label said was the cure time '.
Yet, on the product that the "test" shown to have the best performance, it was allowed a full 24 hour cure time before exposure to the wash test.
Where is the validity in that, does that not make the whole test invalid?
If that does not make the test just a big marketing excercise, I don't know what does.
ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it all!
As the facts show, the test was "tilted" to make one product show better performance.
That is shown by the "cure" time and your Ms. Hitti's response of "we did what the label said was the cure time '.
Yet, on the product that the "test" shown to have the best performance, it was allowed a full 24 hour cure time before exposure to the wash test.
Where is the validity in that, does that not make the whole test invalid?
If that does not make the test just a big marketing excercise, I don't know what does.
ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it all!
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Re: Ron K - Say Want You Want!!! May 13, 2005 12:44AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 19 |
<HTML>As a person who reads this forum and others, to not only educate myself and stay abreast of the constant changes in this industry, but to also deliver CORRECT INFORMATION to my customers. I ask the following
What is the actual life of wax when applied to a vehicle??
What is the actual life of paint sealant when applied to a vehicle??
And if the 2-4 months for wax, and the 4-6 months for paint sealant are accurate then why battle over what has been posted here time and time again.
Apples to apples.... if for the most part the lifespan of these products are fairly equal.... then why not accept the fact that products are for the most part a "personal preference" for the detailer. At least they are for me and I would assume this to be true for most of the detailers on this forum.
I would personally prefer to see a UFC type match over a steel cage match.
Just a thought, but it's all mine.
Regards,
J.C. Laughlin
Mobile Auto Wash and Detail, Inc.</HTML>
What is the actual life of wax when applied to a vehicle??
What is the actual life of paint sealant when applied to a vehicle??
And if the 2-4 months for wax, and the 4-6 months for paint sealant are accurate then why battle over what has been posted here time and time again.
Apples to apples.... if for the most part the lifespan of these products are fairly equal.... then why not accept the fact that products are for the most part a "personal preference" for the detailer. At least they are for me and I would assume this to be true for most of the detailers on this forum.
I would personally prefer to see a UFC type match over a steel cage match.
Just a thought, but it's all mine.
Regards,
J.C. Laughlin
Mobile Auto Wash and Detail, Inc.</HTML>
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Re: Ron K - Say Want You Want!!! May 13, 2005 01:10AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 112 |
<HTML>Take this SH!T to another forum!
Better yet email the individual or even better yet, PM each other!
Too much friggin brains and great information here to waste time on tit for tat shtuff.
Just when things were cruzin along, topics like "what is a full detail, business planning," etc..... along comes this personal tirade.
Facts are facts, agree to disagree, whatthefudge ever.... Save the personal BS for somewhere else.
Mike</HTML>
-Get that great new car feeling!-
Better yet email the individual or even better yet, PM each other!
Too much friggin brains and great information here to waste time on tit for tat shtuff.
Just when things were cruzin along, topics like "what is a full detail, business planning," etc..... along comes this personal tirade.
Facts are facts, agree to disagree, whatthefudge ever.... Save the personal BS for somewhere else.
Mike</HTML>
-Get that great new car feeling!-
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Re: Ron K - Say Want You Want!!! May 13, 2005 01:14AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 112 |
<HTML>Furthermore,
When *anybody* has to call another person out here on the forum with their name, it should be a red flag that that particular comment should be sent privately.
Unless you're looking for someone, i.e. "Hey John Doe, still in FL?", etc...
Mike</HTML>
-Get that great new car feeling!-
When *anybody* has to call another person out here on the forum with their name, it should be a red flag that that particular comment should be sent privately.
Unless you're looking for someone, i.e. "Hey John Doe, still in FL?", etc...
Mike</HTML>
-Get that great new car feeling!-
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Re: The life of wax May 14, 2005 12:19AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 51 |
<HTML>Quote by J.C. Laughlin: As a person who reads this forum and others, to not only educate myself and stay abreast of the constant changes in this industry, but to also deliver CORRECT INFORMATION to my customers. I ask the following
Q: What is the actual life of wax when applied to a vehicle??
A: Ambient temperature and weather conditions of location will of course have a bearing on a products life expectancy (wax or sealant)Through dissipation Carnauba wax are limited in their protecting capabilities. More specifically, these wax compounds have a melting point of 180 degree. F. When the temperature of the painted surface exceeds the melting point of the compound applied thereon; the waxes will melt from a hard wax to oil. When this occurs, the waxes are easily washed off and, more importantly, will pick up dust particles and other air pollutants.
In actual practice, the temperature frequently leads to melting of the wax compounds (which also contains solvents and sometime Beeswax (130oF low melting points). For example, painted surfaces exposed to ambient temperatures of 80oF in direct sunlight, will rise up to a temperature of 185degree F or more.
Q: What is the actual life of paint sealant when applied to a vehicle??
A: A polymer sealant has a much higher fracture/evaporation temperature 350oF, are more durable due in part to there forming a better bonding with the paint surface.
Q: And if the 2-4 months for wax, and the 4-6 months for paint sealant are accurate then why battle over what has been posted here time and time again.
A: I would agree with these ‘life-span’ approximations (although I would suggest wax to last for closer to 60 days +/-)
Apples to apples.... if for the most part the lifespan of these products are fairly equal.... then why not accept the fact that products are for the most part a "personal preference" for the detailer. At least they are for me and I would assume this to be true for most of the detailers on this forum.
IMO detailers don’t care much about durability but do care very much about appearance, or at least what looks good to them (beauty is in the guy of the beholder). I not a professional detailer insofar as its not how I make my living, although I do detail for money, so a professionals opinion may be very different from that of an enthusiast The difference between an enthusiast and a professional detailer - it's a business, not a "passion
JonM
Q: What is the actual life of wax when applied to a vehicle??
A: Ambient temperature and weather conditions of location will of course have a bearing on a products life expectancy (wax or sealant)Through dissipation Carnauba wax are limited in their protecting capabilities. More specifically, these wax compounds have a melting point of 180 degree. F. When the temperature of the painted surface exceeds the melting point of the compound applied thereon; the waxes will melt from a hard wax to oil. When this occurs, the waxes are easily washed off and, more importantly, will pick up dust particles and other air pollutants.
In actual practice, the temperature frequently leads to melting of the wax compounds (which also contains solvents and sometime Beeswax (130oF low melting points). For example, painted surfaces exposed to ambient temperatures of 80oF in direct sunlight, will rise up to a temperature of 185degree F or more.
Q: What is the actual life of paint sealant when applied to a vehicle??
A: A polymer sealant has a much higher fracture/evaporation temperature 350oF, are more durable due in part to there forming a better bonding with the paint surface.
Q: And if the 2-4 months for wax, and the 4-6 months for paint sealant are accurate then why battle over what has been posted here time and time again.
A: I would agree with these ‘life-span’ approximations (although I would suggest wax to last for closer to 60 days +/-)
Apples to apples.... if for the most part the lifespan of these products are fairly equal.... then why not accept the fact that products are for the most part a "personal preference" for the detailer. At least they are for me and I would assume this to be true for most of the detailers on this forum.
IMO detailers don’t care much about durability but do care very much about appearance, or at least what looks good to them (beauty is in the guy of the beholder). I not a professional detailer insofar as its not how I make my living, although I do detail for money, so a professionals opinion may be very different from that of an enthusiast The difference between an enthusiast and a professional detailer - it's a business, not a "passion
JonM</HTML>
[ each one / teach one, then student /becomes teacher ]
Q: What is the actual life of wax when applied to a vehicle??
A: Ambient temperature and weather conditions of location will of course have a bearing on a products life expectancy (wax or sealant)Through dissipation Carnauba wax are limited in their protecting capabilities. More specifically, these wax compounds have a melting point of 180 degree. F. When the temperature of the painted surface exceeds the melting point of the compound applied thereon; the waxes will melt from a hard wax to oil. When this occurs, the waxes are easily washed off and, more importantly, will pick up dust particles and other air pollutants.
In actual practice, the temperature frequently leads to melting of the wax compounds (which also contains solvents and sometime Beeswax (130oF low melting points). For example, painted surfaces exposed to ambient temperatures of 80oF in direct sunlight, will rise up to a temperature of 185degree F or more.
Q: What is the actual life of paint sealant when applied to a vehicle??
A: A polymer sealant has a much higher fracture/evaporation temperature 350oF, are more durable due in part to there forming a better bonding with the paint surface.
Q: And if the 2-4 months for wax, and the 4-6 months for paint sealant are accurate then why battle over what has been posted here time and time again.
A: I would agree with these ‘life-span’ approximations (although I would suggest wax to last for closer to 60 days +/-)
Apples to apples.... if for the most part the lifespan of these products are fairly equal.... then why not accept the fact that products are for the most part a "personal preference" for the detailer. At least they are for me and I would assume this to be true for most of the detailers on this forum.
IMO detailers don’t care much about durability but do care very much about appearance, or at least what looks good to them (beauty is in the guy of the beholder). I not a professional detailer insofar as its not how I make my living, although I do detail for money, so a professionals opinion may be very different from that of an enthusiast The difference between an enthusiast and a professional detailer - it's a business, not a "passion
JonM
Q: What is the actual life of wax when applied to a vehicle??
A: Ambient temperature and weather conditions of location will of course have a bearing on a products life expectancy (wax or sealant)Through dissipation Carnauba wax are limited in their protecting capabilities. More specifically, these wax compounds have a melting point of 180 degree. F. When the temperature of the painted surface exceeds the melting point of the compound applied thereon; the waxes will melt from a hard wax to oil. When this occurs, the waxes are easily washed off and, more importantly, will pick up dust particles and other air pollutants.
In actual practice, the temperature frequently leads to melting of the wax compounds (which also contains solvents and sometime Beeswax (130oF low melting points). For example, painted surfaces exposed to ambient temperatures of 80oF in direct sunlight, will rise up to a temperature of 185degree F or more.
Q: What is the actual life of paint sealant when applied to a vehicle??
A: A polymer sealant has a much higher fracture/evaporation temperature 350oF, are more durable due in part to there forming a better bonding with the paint surface.
Q: And if the 2-4 months for wax, and the 4-6 months for paint sealant are accurate then why battle over what has been posted here time and time again.
A: I would agree with these ‘life-span’ approximations (although I would suggest wax to last for closer to 60 days +/-)
Apples to apples.... if for the most part the lifespan of these products are fairly equal.... then why not accept the fact that products are for the most part a "personal preference" for the detailer. At least they are for me and I would assume this to be true for most of the detailers on this forum.
IMO detailers don’t care much about durability but do care very much about appearance, or at least what looks good to them (beauty is in the guy of the beholder). I not a professional detailer insofar as its not how I make my living, although I do detail for money, so a professionals opinion may be very different from that of an enthusiast The difference between an enthusiast and a professional detailer - it's a business, not a "passion
JonM</HTML>
[ each one / teach one, then student /becomes teacher ]
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Re: The life of wax May 14, 2005 03:19AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 241 |
<HTML>Jon,
You are pretty close, will not go with the 180F for grade #1 carnuaba, closer to 165F, grade #4 somewhere around 145F.
Of course, there are synthetic carnuaba's, from companies in Germany, that have most of the benefits of natural carnuaba's, but require somewhere in the area of 190F+ to reach fracture point.
Bee's or pariffin, closer to 135F, for "first fracture or melt point", after they are exposed to that fracture temperature, the fracture point drops each time they are exposed to heat, down to around 85F, and they start fracturing or melting away.
This sort of information, may or not be important to many detailers, or others.
Just provides for those who wisht to explore what is what,more information, in order to sort the wheat from the chafe of marketing done by mass marketer companies.
This information, based on the chemistry involved in the performance of any product is what makes it tougher for the "snake oil" types to use tainted or mis-information, to sway the choices that one who really cares, must decide.
I firmly believe it is time for this industry, the sincere professionals, to start to understand there are some out there,producing or marketing products, who are very concerned that real, documented facts come into the industry.
Those sorts will attempt, in anyway that they may believe will produce a greater profit for them, to prey on those who are very new and un-educated, in the basics of chemistry, the damaging effects of certain components in a product, try to side step the regulations, etc.
For these types, they will stoop to any method that they deem such that make it possible to sell product.
ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it all!
You are pretty close, will not go with the 180F for grade #1 carnuaba, closer to 165F, grade #4 somewhere around 145F.
Of course, there are synthetic carnuaba's, from companies in Germany, that have most of the benefits of natural carnuaba's, but require somewhere in the area of 190F+ to reach fracture point.
Bee's or pariffin, closer to 135F, for "first fracture or melt point", after they are exposed to that fracture temperature, the fracture point drops each time they are exposed to heat, down to around 85F, and they start fracturing or melting away.
This sort of information, may or not be important to many detailers, or others.
Just provides for those who wisht to explore what is what,more information, in order to sort the wheat from the chafe of marketing done by mass marketer companies.
This information, based on the chemistry involved in the performance of any product is what makes it tougher for the "snake oil" types to use tainted or mis-information, to sway the choices that one who really cares, must decide.
I firmly believe it is time for this industry, the sincere professionals, to start to understand there are some out there,producing or marketing products, who are very concerned that real, documented facts come into the industry.
Those sorts will attempt, in anyway that they may believe will produce a greater profit for them, to prey on those who are very new and un-educated, in the basics of chemistry, the damaging effects of certain components in a product, try to side step the regulations, etc.
For these types, they will stoop to any method that they deem such that make it possible to sell product.
ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it all!
|
Re: The life of wax May 14, 2005 09:34PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 51 |
<HTML>Quote: This information, based on the chemistry involved in the performance of any product is what makes it tougher for the "snake oil" types to use tainted or mis-information, to sway the choices that one who really cares, must decide.
I firmly believe it is time for this industry, the sincere professionals, to start to understand there are some out there,producing or marketing products, who are very concerned that real, documented facts come into the industry.
R Ketcham
I couldn't agree more, I'm from a different industry (Architectural Engineering) and I'm amazed at the lack of any 'real' information that is avilable on car care products (with omly a few exceptions) if mfgs tried to sell us products with such limited (and that's the polite version) most of us would nver buy/use their products. JonM
Anon</HTML>
[ each one / teach one, then student /becomes teacher ]
I firmly believe it is time for this industry, the sincere professionals, to start to understand there are some out there,producing or marketing products, who are very concerned that real, documented facts come into the industry.
R Ketcham
I couldn't agree more, I'm from a different industry (Architectural Engineering) and I'm amazed at the lack of any 'real' information that is avilable on car care products (with omly a few exceptions) if mfgs tried to sell us products with such limited (and that's the polite version) most of us would nver buy/use their products. JonM
Anon</HTML>
[ each one / teach one, then student /becomes teacher ]
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Re: Ron K - Say Want You Want!!! December 15, 2006 04:04PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 1,182 |
...and this is how the big wax test debate was way back then...
What this old thread illustrates is the need for real world testing, the kind that any detailer can do on his own. You can wax half a hood or half a car with one wax and half with a competitor. Then, compare the various attributes.
Mark your calendar to keep track of what was applied where and when.
I think Bud and Ketch should have settled their differences over a good bottle of Klasse AIO-And may the best detailed car win !
Doug
What this old thread illustrates is the need for real world testing, the kind that any detailer can do on his own. You can wax half a hood or half a car with one wax and half with a competitor. Then, compare the various attributes.
Mark your calendar to keep track of what was applied where and when.
I think Bud and Ketch should have settled their differences over a good bottle of Klasse AIO-And may the best detailed car win !
Doug
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