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Whats the difference between Aircraft detailing Chemicals and Auto Chems
Posted by MacGregor
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Whats the difference between Aircraft detailing Chemicals and Auto Chems November 22, 2005 10:48PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 17 |
<HTML>
Can someone take a look at the following chemicals and tell me if any of those things would work well on automobiles. They make some pretty stiff claims. Bud, I know your pretty up on whats hype and what isnt.
Could I use some of these products on automobiles?
Take a look [www.wingwaxers.com]
I was especially interested in there "teflon" lasts for a year claim and if the De-Ox stuff was any good.
Any insight into this would be greatly appreciated.
I know Renny details Boats, Cars and Aircraft.
-Attention To Details
-Aircraft & Auto Detailing</HTML>
Can someone take a look at the following chemicals and tell me if any of those things would work well on automobiles. They make some pretty stiff claims. Bud, I know your pretty up on whats hype and what isnt.
Could I use some of these products on automobiles?
Take a look [www.wingwaxers.com]
I was especially interested in there "teflon" lasts for a year claim and if the De-Ox stuff was any good.
Any insight into this would be greatly appreciated.
I know Renny details Boats, Cars and Aircraft.
-Attention To Details
-Aircraft & Auto Detailing</HTML>
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Re: Whats the difference between Aircraft detailing Chemicals and Auto Chems November 23, 2005 01:51AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>What I know about chemicals used to clean airlines or military planes have to be approved by the FAA. The reasoning is that a "cleaner" could use chemicals that might be corrosive to parts on the plane and possibly create a safety issue.
For example, you would not be allowed to use hydroflouric acid on the aluminum body of the plane.
On the other hand chemicals approved for airplane use would probably work quite well on an automobile.
As for Teflon being some miracle, never wax again product that is simply not true. Teflon does nothing to enhance the shine or durability of a wax/sealant product. It is what we call in the industry a buzz word, and full of marketing hype.
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
For example, you would not be allowed to use hydroflouric acid on the aluminum body of the plane.
On the other hand chemicals approved for airplane use would probably work quite well on an automobile.
As for Teflon being some miracle, never wax again product that is simply not true. Teflon does nothing to enhance the shine or durability of a wax/sealant product. It is what we call in the industry a buzz word, and full of marketing hype.
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
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Re: Whats the difference between Aircraft detailing Chemicals and Auto Chems November 23, 2005 04:12PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 641 |
<HTML>Several months ago I chimed in on a similar thread, provided what information I obtained directly from CAB and FAA sources.
There are no standards provided by the goverment, other than dealing in construction of the aircraft and corrosion, etc.
They do have regulations regarding what chemicals may be used for fire proofing, etc and what may make contact with the tarmac when cleaning.
Other than that, it is up to the aircraft manufacturer to set and provide any recommendations regarding cleaning chemicals.
As far as their being any real difference between what is used on a motor vehicles vs an aircraft, there are good and safe products and not so good and unsafe products.
The only real difference I have seen is in the way the packaging is done and what the instructions are on the usage.
We private label several products for small companies that market "aircraft specific products, as we do for the marine industry.
Most are standard formulas that are also packaged for automotive use.
ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it at all!
There are no standards provided by the goverment, other than dealing in construction of the aircraft and corrosion, etc.
They do have regulations regarding what chemicals may be used for fire proofing, etc and what may make contact with the tarmac when cleaning.
Other than that, it is up to the aircraft manufacturer to set and provide any recommendations regarding cleaning chemicals.
As far as their being any real difference between what is used on a motor vehicles vs an aircraft, there are good and safe products and not so good and unsafe products.
The only real difference I have seen is in the way the packaging is done and what the instructions are on the usage.
We private label several products for small companies that market "aircraft specific products, as we do for the marine industry.
Most are standard formulas that are also packaged for automotive use.
ketch</HTML>
Do it right or don't do it at all!
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Re: Whats the difference between Aircraft detailing Chemicals and Auto Chems November 23, 2005 08:10PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Doing a little research on this subject I have determined that there are specific tests that have to be run for each application on an airplance. If you contact Scientific Material International in Florida (305 757 5596 Phone & Fax 305 893 0431), they can give you the particulars for each application.
Each of the airlines, as I understand it, are alittle different.
For instance, Boeing has a test #BOEING D6-17487 specifically for exterior ad general cleaners and liquid waxes.
Hope this helps.
Regards
Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS</HTML>
buda
Each of the airlines, as I understand it, are alittle different.
For instance, Boeing has a test #BOEING D6-17487 specifically for exterior ad general cleaners and liquid waxes.
Hope this helps.
Regards
Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS</HTML>
buda
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Re: Whats the difference between Aircraft detailing Chemicals and Auto Chems November 23, 2005 10:38PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 17 |
<HTML>
I realize that some of the terms this company WingWaxers use may be a bit of marketing hype to show the value of there products. But everyone does that.
What this comes down to is, I have a hard time beleiving that everything that wingwaxers said is complete hype. Im not saying there products are miracle but its entirely possible they are very high quality. IMO not all skepticisim is justified.
Bud said "As for Teflon being some miracle, never wax again product that is simply not true. Teflon does nothing to enhance the shine or durability of a wax/sealant product. It is what we call in the industry a buzz word, and full of marketing hype."
They never said it was some never wax again product but they claim it lasts much longer than wax does. Mind you this is a company that is well respected among aircraft owners and gets paid on average 500-1500 per aircraft. There using what they think is the absolute best.
Its my beleif that teflon isnt complete hype. It must do something good or it wouldnt be used by a company that claims to be the best detailers in the aircraft business. Personally I think it just might threaten business of other products. Its happened before in every industry.....make your competition look bad so you dont lose money.
In the next week Im going to be buying some more chems. Im going to try the old standbys- Meguiars and the aircraft stuff. My wifes family has a old truck they dont mind me trying out new products on, so Im gonna use one product on one side and half on the other. Ill take a couple pictures, and every month take another picture. Until I do that, its bit hypothetical.I really have no opinion or care as to which product does better. So well see.</HTML>
I realize that some of the terms this company WingWaxers use may be a bit of marketing hype to show the value of there products. But everyone does that.
What this comes down to is, I have a hard time beleiving that everything that wingwaxers said is complete hype. Im not saying there products are miracle but its entirely possible they are very high quality. IMO not all skepticisim is justified.
Bud said "As for Teflon being some miracle, never wax again product that is simply not true. Teflon does nothing to enhance the shine or durability of a wax/sealant product. It is what we call in the industry a buzz word, and full of marketing hype."
They never said it was some never wax again product but they claim it lasts much longer than wax does. Mind you this is a company that is well respected among aircraft owners and gets paid on average 500-1500 per aircraft. There using what they think is the absolute best.
Its my beleif that teflon isnt complete hype. It must do something good or it wouldnt be used by a company that claims to be the best detailers in the aircraft business. Personally I think it just might threaten business of other products. Its happened before in every industry.....make your competition look bad so you dont lose money.
In the next week Im going to be buying some more chems. Im going to try the old standbys- Meguiars and the aircraft stuff. My wifes family has a old truck they dont mind me trying out new products on, so Im gonna use one product on one side and half on the other. Ill take a couple pictures, and every month take another picture. Until I do that, its bit hypothetical.I really have no opinion or care as to which product does better. So well see.</HTML>
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Re: Whats the difference between Aircraft detailing Chemicals and Auto Chems November 23, 2005 11:34PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Thanks for the reply. All of what you said is your opinion as a end user, mine is as a formulator of detail chemicals. Who says I am right and you wrong. Opinions are opinions.
As for Teflon enhancing the shine or durablity of a paint protection product there is a letter floating around the industry from DuPont which states that Teflon does nothing to enhance shine or durability.
As my chemists states, it will, at best, make the product, maybe more useable, if that is a need, which it is not.
But if you want to believe that Teflon does something special that is no problem whatsoever.
All we are doing here is exchanging information and in many cases opinions. No one is neither right or wrong.
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
As for Teflon enhancing the shine or durablity of a paint protection product there is a letter floating around the industry from DuPont which states that Teflon does nothing to enhance shine or durability.
As my chemists states, it will, at best, make the product, maybe more useable, if that is a need, which it is not.
But if you want to believe that Teflon does something special that is no problem whatsoever.
All we are doing here is exchanging information and in many cases opinions. No one is neither right or wrong.
Regards
Bud Abraham</HTML>
buda
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Re: Whats the difference between Aircraft detailing Chemicals and Auto Chems November 24, 2005 10:50PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 17 |
<HTML> I very well could be wrong....I could be dead wrong. Im new to this industry and just learning and you have been around a long time. For that you have my respect.
I was hoping that you would shed some light as to what Teflon does do and what it doesnt. For all I know it could be a complete conspiracy of sorts. Before fluoride was put into toothpaste it was a waste product that companies paid good money to dispose of. Now its in every toothpaste. So Im asking what does it do, if anything?
Bud did you get a chance to look at what that company called there De-ox....basically a very fine polish?
I wish it was more than just your opinion and my opinion. I think the trouble is there arent that many companies doing tests on these products. With computers its easy because every one and there brother does tests and you really know what your paying for.</HTML>
I was hoping that you would shed some light as to what Teflon does do and what it doesnt. For all I know it could be a complete conspiracy of sorts. Before fluoride was put into toothpaste it was a waste product that companies paid good money to dispose of. Now its in every toothpaste. So Im asking what does it do, if anything?
Bud did you get a chance to look at what that company called there De-ox....basically a very fine polish?
I wish it was more than just your opinion and my opinion. I think the trouble is there arent that many companies doing tests on these products. With computers its easy because every one and there brother does tests and you really know what your paying for.</HTML>
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Re: Whats the difference between Aircraft detailing Chemicals and Auto Chems November 24, 2005 11:45PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>Thanks for your reply. The reason I emphasized "opinions" was that I did not want to insult or offend you.
Go to [eb,wikipeda,org] and you will find some technical information on the history of Teflon, what it is; where it is used, etc.
Most of us in the detail business know that Teflon as an ingredient in a paint protection product does nothing to enhance the shine or durability of the product. That is all I can tell you as that is what I have read and has been substantiated by many detail chemical product chemists I have spoken to.
We sell a product called Teflon PLUS but I tell people who ask that it is no better than our DIAMOND PLUS, but their position is they have to have a product with Teflon to compete in their market because the motorist believes it works.
Yes, I believe it is a conspiracy of sorts, just my opinion since you brought it up.
Regards
Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS</HTML>
buda
Go to [eb,wikipeda,org] and you will find some technical information on the history of Teflon, what it is; where it is used, etc.
Most of us in the detail business know that Teflon as an ingredient in a paint protection product does nothing to enhance the shine or durability of the product. That is all I can tell you as that is what I have read and has been substantiated by many detail chemical product chemists I have spoken to.
We sell a product called Teflon PLUS but I tell people who ask that it is no better than our DIAMOND PLUS, but their position is they have to have a product with Teflon to compete in their market because the motorist believes it works.
Yes, I believe it is a conspiracy of sorts, just my opinion since you brought it up.
Regards
Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS</HTML>
buda
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Re: Teflon Products January 29, 2006 03:21AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 13 |
<HTML>Bud says: "Most of us in the detail business know that Teflon as an ingredient in a paint protection product does nothing to enhance the shine or durability of the product. That is all I can tell you as that is what I have read and has been substantiated by many detail chemical product chemists I have spoken to.
We sell a product called Teflon PLUS but I tell people who ask that it is no better than our DIAMOND PLUS, but their position is they have to have a product with Teflon to compete in their market because the motorist believes it works."
Now a little bit about Teflon after some research...
The advantage of Teflon® is that it is the most stable and slippery molecule known. It is highly resistant to breakdown because of its non-reactive molecular nature (it was used during the development of the atomic bomb to coat vessels which contained one of the most toxic and extremely corrosive substances known by science, uranium hexafluoride). Because it does not react with virtually any chemical and is the most slippery material known to exist, Teflon® has the potential to be one of the best paint protection barriers. It is extremely resistant to chemical attack and its slippery nature makes it an excellent soil and stain repellent. There are hundreds of different Teflon polymers that have been developed by DuPont, each with different applications.
My conclusions:
Sounds like Bud's Detail Chemists don't want to pay royalties to Dupont when formulating their elixirs.
Sounds like Dupont put millions of dollars into researching and developing a product that Joe Formulator/Chemist can't duplicate so they actually label their concoction "as good" when it really isn't.
That Simoniz put a bunch of money into System 5 that is using Teflon and is backed by insurance companies, a five year guarantee, five day rental car coverage at the risk of refinishing a vehicle instead of trusting Joe Formulator/Chemist to do it because they knew Teflon was superior.
That people developing the Atomic Bomb knew they didn't want to spare ten dollars at the risk of devastating injury or catastrophic failure on a product that was inferior to Teflon
That the motorist believes it works and it does.
That Bud hasn't done his homework.
That this is another reason why people who go to detailing schools run by people trying to slang product should have been more intelligent and gone to a refinishing school provided by a paint manufacturer.</HTML>
X-Calibur 1 Auto Detailing / Paint / Collision Repair
12626 Old Jefferson HWY.
Baton Rouge, LA 70816
(225)756-5551
We sell a product called Teflon PLUS but I tell people who ask that it is no better than our DIAMOND PLUS, but their position is they have to have a product with Teflon to compete in their market because the motorist believes it works."
Now a little bit about Teflon after some research...
The advantage of Teflon® is that it is the most stable and slippery molecule known. It is highly resistant to breakdown because of its non-reactive molecular nature (it was used during the development of the atomic bomb to coat vessels which contained one of the most toxic and extremely corrosive substances known by science, uranium hexafluoride). Because it does not react with virtually any chemical and is the most slippery material known to exist, Teflon® has the potential to be one of the best paint protection barriers. It is extremely resistant to chemical attack and its slippery nature makes it an excellent soil and stain repellent. There are hundreds of different Teflon polymers that have been developed by DuPont, each with different applications.
My conclusions:
Sounds like Bud's Detail Chemists don't want to pay royalties to Dupont when formulating their elixirs.
Sounds like Dupont put millions of dollars into researching and developing a product that Joe Formulator/Chemist can't duplicate so they actually label their concoction "as good" when it really isn't.
That Simoniz put a bunch of money into System 5 that is using Teflon and is backed by insurance companies, a five year guarantee, five day rental car coverage at the risk of refinishing a vehicle instead of trusting Joe Formulator/Chemist to do it because they knew Teflon was superior.
That people developing the Atomic Bomb knew they didn't want to spare ten dollars at the risk of devastating injury or catastrophic failure on a product that was inferior to Teflon
That the motorist believes it works and it does.
That Bud hasn't done his homework.
That this is another reason why people who go to detailing schools run by people trying to slang product should have been more intelligent and gone to a refinishing school provided by a paint manufacturer.</HTML>
X-Calibur 1 Auto Detailing / Paint / Collision Repair
12626 Old Jefferson HWY.
Baton Rouge, LA 70816
(225)756-5551
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Re: Teflon Products January 29, 2006 07:35AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>James:
You are to be commended for doing some research to justify your position.
While I know something about chemicals and silicones, which Teflon is, I do not claim to be a chemist.
All the chemists I know in the industry, including our own, all agree that Teflon does nothing to enhance the shine or durability of a paint sealant or wax.
Further, there is a letter floating around the industry, a copy of which I will locate and post here that is from the Dupont Automotive Division that states clearly that their Teflon does nothing to enhance the shine or durability of a wax or sealant.
To my knowledge, if I buy Teflon from DuPont and use it in our paint sealants I am not obligated to pay them any royalties for the name.
Regards
Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS</HTML>
buda
You are to be commended for doing some research to justify your position.
While I know something about chemicals and silicones, which Teflon is, I do not claim to be a chemist.
All the chemists I know in the industry, including our own, all agree that Teflon does nothing to enhance the shine or durability of a paint sealant or wax.
Further, there is a letter floating around the industry, a copy of which I will locate and post here that is from the Dupont Automotive Division that states clearly that their Teflon does nothing to enhance the shine or durability of a wax or sealant.
To my knowledge, if I buy Teflon from DuPont and use it in our paint sealants I am not obligated to pay them any royalties for the name.
Regards
Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS</HTML>
buda
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Teflon's take on its product in wax etc January 29, 2006 01:03PM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 51 |
<HTML>Teflon®:
Although Teflon® is an exceptional product when used as intended; it provides no benefit in a wax or polish. According to G.R. Ansul of DuPont's Car Care Products, Specialty Products Division, "The addition of a Teflon® flouropolymer resin does nothing to enhance the properties of a car wax. We have no data that indicates the use of Teflon® fluoropolymer resins is beneficial in car waxes, and we have not seen data from other people that support this position."
Manufacturers of gimmick and over-hyped products sometimes claim that their products contain Teflon®, hoping that the consumer will believe there is something special about that product. Ansul also notes that, "Unless Teflon® is applied at 700 degrees F, and using a dissolving chemical C8, it is not a viable ingredient, and is 100 percent useless in protecting the paint's finish." This is hot enough that your car's paint (let alone your car) wouldn't survive
Information resource- Grisanti, Stephen "The Truth About Teflon®" Professional Car washing & Detailing, Jan1989)
[Dupont is taking back the Teflon® name. Companies can continue to use the product, but it must now be called Zonyl]</HTML>
[ each one / teach one, then student /becomes teacher ]
Although Teflon® is an exceptional product when used as intended; it provides no benefit in a wax or polish. According to G.R. Ansul of DuPont's Car Care Products, Specialty Products Division, "The addition of a Teflon® flouropolymer resin does nothing to enhance the properties of a car wax. We have no data that indicates the use of Teflon® fluoropolymer resins is beneficial in car waxes, and we have not seen data from other people that support this position."
Manufacturers of gimmick and over-hyped products sometimes claim that their products contain Teflon®, hoping that the consumer will believe there is something special about that product. Ansul also notes that, "Unless Teflon® is applied at 700 degrees F, and using a dissolving chemical C8, it is not a viable ingredient, and is 100 percent useless in protecting the paint's finish." This is hot enough that your car's paint (let alone your car) wouldn't survive
Information resource- Grisanti, Stephen "The Truth About Teflon®" Professional Car washing & Detailing, Jan1989)
[Dupont is taking back the Teflon® name. Companies can continue to use the product, but it must now be called Zonyl]</HTML>
[ each one / teach one, then student /becomes teacher ]
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Re: Teflon's take on its product in wax etc January 31, 2006 03:01AM |
Registered: 17 years ago Posts: 3,550 |
<HTML>James Eno:
Here are the comments of my chemist in response to your commentary:
"All that James Eno says about Teflon, the product, in his research could be considered true. He has done a nice job of initial researching on his own.
However, what he failed to research and include in his summary is how TEFLON is applied and bonded to various surfaces.
He did not mention anything about how TEFLON is applied to "non-stick"
cookware.
You cannot wax a metal skillet with wax containing TEFLON and expect it to perform.
Why? That is because the TEFLON is bonded to the surface metal at very high temperatures.
TEFLON can be an ingredient in automotive chemical products and provide "some" benefits. The TEFLON in waxes does not bond to the paint surface as described above. It cannot provide that wonderful protection that we all know TEFLON provides when properly processed on a surface.
TEFLON will help with the application process of a wax because it does provide somse, let us call, "slip." It may even provide a small amount of protection because it is in the wax film that is on the vehicle, technically speaking. However...........only a very minor amount of protection, nothing like the sellers of miracle paint sealants would have you believe.
I would be hard pressed to quantify that because all of the waxes that I have personally tested over the years, with and without TEFLON, have never shown any superior protective qualities when TEFLON was added.
Additionally, without getting into the chemistry, DuPont will need some real research effort to keep TEFLON on the market. A cancer causing chemical is used in the manufacture of TEFLON and is now being brought to light. There is a company now waiting in the wings ready to introduce a TEFLON substitute as soon as the DuPont "pullback" of the use of TEFLON begins.
Just some food for thought."
Regards
KW
Hope that answers your questions James?</HTML>
buda
Here are the comments of my chemist in response to your commentary:
"All that James Eno says about Teflon, the product, in his research could be considered true. He has done a nice job of initial researching on his own.
However, what he failed to research and include in his summary is how TEFLON is applied and bonded to various surfaces.
He did not mention anything about how TEFLON is applied to "non-stick"
cookware.
You cannot wax a metal skillet with wax containing TEFLON and expect it to perform.
Why? That is because the TEFLON is bonded to the surface metal at very high temperatures.
TEFLON can be an ingredient in automotive chemical products and provide "some" benefits. The TEFLON in waxes does not bond to the paint surface as described above. It cannot provide that wonderful protection that we all know TEFLON provides when properly processed on a surface.
TEFLON will help with the application process of a wax because it does provide somse, let us call, "slip." It may even provide a small amount of protection because it is in the wax film that is on the vehicle, technically speaking. However...........only a very minor amount of protection, nothing like the sellers of miracle paint sealants would have you believe.
I would be hard pressed to quantify that because all of the waxes that I have personally tested over the years, with and without TEFLON, have never shown any superior protective qualities when TEFLON was added.
Additionally, without getting into the chemistry, DuPont will need some real research effort to keep TEFLON on the market. A cancer causing chemical is used in the manufacture of TEFLON and is now being brought to light. There is a company now waiting in the wings ready to introduce a TEFLON substitute as soon as the DuPont "pullback" of the use of TEFLON begins.
Just some food for thought."
Regards
KW
Hope that answers your questions James?</HTML>
buda
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