Latest Product Evaluation

St. Legal-
You could at least quote my parking tip accurately...

New Again-
The "boutique concept" is a good way to trash products on something other than their merits. If a customer is willing to pay extra for you to use Zaino or Klasse or whatever, the cost of the product is not a problem for you. Gina pointed this concept of " passing on the cost " out some time ago but some readers must have missed it. Given a choice between using a professional wax like #26, that doesn't hold up and a " boutique " wax like Malm's ( that does ), I'd use Malm's. I can't see a reason to draw a line. No less a pro than Brian has used Collinite. I recall that Renny Doyle uses Klasse. So thanks for your open-minded post, NEW AGAIN.

St. Legal-
You were free to modify my idea...the basic concept was that providing tips shows a real enthusiast-type concern for your customer's car and is a reason you can give people for visiting your site. It builds a positive image and might generate hits...but why should I help you any more ? Maybe this will prove valuable to others. If you like to "pile on", maybe you can go back and join me in questioning Bud's wax test and Ketch's 3-year sealant claim. Fair is fair. I'm glad you don't seem to have found any factual errors in my writings and had to resort to out-of-context and false quotes to make your point...I can't recall reading one post from you that gave a new procedure, product evaluation or advice for solving someone's problem so I'm willing to compare my contribution to this forum to yours if you wish. I suppose if you say nothing, you can avoid debate from the "tag team ".
Doug



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2006 04:14AM by Doug Delmont.

Doug

Send me info on Malms and what you recommend in wax and polish THANKS

dsolomon@ec.rr.com / newagain@ec.rr.com

Doug

Why do you feel the need to apologize to me. That is completely unnecessary, you have a right to your opinions and I to mine.

Feel free to disagree with anything I say, as I will disagree with anything you say that I do not agree with.

In either case, no apologies are necessary.

Regards
Bud Abraham

Are we talking about detailing your own vehicle on the weekends? Or running a business? Because if I used any of the waxes were talking about I'd go broke! I go thru 2 gallons of wax a month! And I don't doubt one bit you can get OUTSTANDING results from these Waxes with pretty bottles but compared to what Turtle Wax? Or is Turtle Wax awesome to? The exact quote you made was "avoid parking where there is a pole you could forget about and back into." I didnt mean to misquote you but the post is still up (so it's hard to deny). And I know I'm free to modify your idea thats not the point. The very fact that,that was your idea, is the reason you should'nt be throwing around recomendations to young impressionable teenagers who come to this site because they got a pick-up
and a water hose and they are looking for advice from real pros. So they come here and there it is a real test! A test on products he should use! Next thing you know He's at the dollar store once a month and pumping out fine details right next to me for $25.00.

Philip

You make two good points in your post:

1. Is a professional detailer recommending the use of retail chemicals purchased from the Dollar Store. Nothing more need be said about that kind of advise, and

2. Giving advise and assistance to 17 year olds, or anyone for that matter who is going to set up a part-time, weekend detail business in their garage to compete with legitimate professional detail businesses. The part-time, weekender is the reason why the consumer is so price driven. They are confused at to what is a legitimate price for our services. They are confused as to what represents a legitimate detail business. They see our business as a part-time, weekender business that anyone can operate out of their garage.

Is it any wonder we struggle getting the consumer to understand who we are when there are so many of these part-time type of businesses calling themselves detail businesses.

Personally, I think it is a mistake to encourage or to give advise to someone who is going to operate in our industry that does not do so in a legitimate and professional way.

Just some well intentioned thoughts.

Bud Abraham

Bud,

Thats all I'm saying! Myrtle Beach,SC is a small town yet we are absolutely over run with young people just like we're speaking about. And it's literally me and maybe one or two others who are legit. And those "one or two" others I have'nt heard about I'm just giving Myrtle Beach the bnefit of the doubt. And because of this the answer you get from the general public when you give them a $200 quote for a "full" detail is WHAT! Billy Bob down the street does a "full" detail for $30. Now of course it's not what we would call a full detail it's just a one or two hour wash job. That was a few years ago and luckily Myrtle Beach has grown tremendously and alot of retirees have moved in. After ten years We've been able to show the public (through alot of advertising) the difference betwwen "fly by night" operations and quality work. Another thing that has helped is the growth of Myrtle Beach has brought nicer cars to the area and people arent so quick to let just anyone jump on their new Mercedes or BMW. And Doug, Your evaluation of products is certainly fair game for debate, but I apologize for picking on your post about my web site. You were just trying to help by doing exactly what I asked people to do, which was give me feed back on my site. I re-read my post and that part of it came off as mean. And I would hate for you to not reply or get involved in any discussion I was in because of it.



Sincerely,
Philip

Philip-
Apology accepted.
Doug

Thanks for the email but I think you were apologizing to Doug, not me.

It was not I who was recommending Dollar store and Giroit's Garage products for professional detailer's to use it was Doug, who readily accepts you apology in the next post.

As you say in another post a product from a discount store, let along a Dollar store certainly is not a quality product, anymore than the hair shampoo you buy by the gallon at WalMart is not the quality you should be using compared to the acid-balanced, salon shampoos used at beauty shops and hair styling salons.

For example, you can make a cheap, but every effective carpet shampoo with low grade sulphonic acids, but that have very little in the way of brighteners or softeners in the product.

There are so many ways for chemical companies to "cheat" the user that the only way to insure that you are getting legitimate products is to buy from a leading company in the industry. It does these companies no good to cheat on their formulations.

Regards
Bud Abraham

What about Auto spa'a that offer full detail are they fooling the public too for less $$$$$$$$$$$ is it not a legit business?

In some of BUD's quote he love's them so much he had a couple of them before he sold and take's his vehicle thru them alot and state they do less scrathing than a professional hand washing. What about all of BUD's product he PUSHES on the forum for less than those so call boutique products

YA CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS!!!!!!!!!!

Phillip I'm about 45minutes from you would love to me you drop me an e-maiL IF YOUR INTERESTED.

newagain@ec.rr.com My business is called NEW AGAIN AUTO SALON & VALET 10 YEARS+
mostly mobile as to say I goto customers homes

New Again, I thought you are I were on the same page, but it appears that we are not.

Could please explain a bit more clearly for me what it is you and I seem to have a conflict over?

As for promoting my company's products on the forum I try not to do that, could you please let me know when and where I have done that so I do not make that mistake again.

Certainly if a detailer is looking for a specific product to do a specific job I am going to mention our product. You will find that the webmaster of web-cars has allowed, unlike other forums, suppliers to mention their products if they might be of benefit to the participants on the forum.

Should you disagree with this policy then you need to take that up with the webmaster.

My complaint about boutique products is not at all that they are in anyway inferior to products offered by detail supply companies, it is moreso the PRICE. Most of them are no better and as stated no worse than professional products, but they are certainly not worth the price that they ask.

If you can purchase a gallon of high quality paint sealant for $22.95 why would you want to pay a boutique company who really caters to the car enthusiast, $45 a pint or quart for a similiar product.

As for products purchased at WalMart or the Dollar Store I am willing to put my money where my mouth is and bet $500 dollars that these products are not as high a quality as what you can buy from any legitimate detail manufacturer.

Regards
Bud Abraham

Gentlemen-
This thread now contains about six product evaluation posts and about 34 posts that teach the reader little or nothing.
The underlying objection is aimed not at the reviews but at fly-by-night detailers. So it is really a case of " the Brothel owners trying to get rid of the street whores ". Nothing I provide is likely to be considered satisfactory.
That said, the points made about Butyl and the need to evaluate health risks before making an overall recommendation for a product are valid. Until now, I had taken the attitude that anything sold for household use couldn't be all that dangerous and that gloves, a mask and eye protection would cancel out any dangers. I've changed my mind on that. This could have been discussed without personalizing the debate, though.
Doug

Gentlemen:
Here's something more interesting than arguing about how many butyls can dance on the head of a pin.
We have the statement on this thread of a shop using up 2 gallons of wax a month. It would be interesting to know how many vehicles were waxed with that two gallons ( of presumably professional product ).
If Malm's Liquid or Griot's Best of Show wax were used, the wax should have covered about 128 vehicles ( at 2 ounces a vehicle average ). If Zaino Z-2 were used, about 256 vehicles could have been waxed.
Malm's claims that their wax is economical because so little is needed to cover a car. The price per ounce is not all that matters. The ounces per job count too.
Bud has said he can tell us that boutique products aren't worth their prices but I can tell you that in some cases, they are.
Comments please.
Doug
" Without chemicals, detailing itself would be impossible."

DOUG; Got you email thanks I'm going to try malm's wax in the near future

Don'T forget FOLEX carpet stain remover $4.98 a quart work better than some of the professional products I have used in the past

Another NON-professional that I would bet on is COLOR- X AND NXT a great combo

Let's just face it there is great products out thier for a FAIR price it all about the MARKETING

NEW AGAIN:
I believe that Malm's wax carrys a money back guarantee so you have nothing to lose by trying it. Glad you got the email.
I actually found that the Awesome product from the dollar store worked better than Folex---Uh Oh ! Here we go again !
Mother's California Gold Carnauba Cleaner Wax and their Three Phase system are good. Meguiar's Natural Shine protectant, pink car wash soap, and three step clean/polish/wax red bottle set work well. Body Scrub is a milder cleaner and works for clearcoats. I've yet to use Collinite but Guru Reports gave No.476S an Editor's Choice Award for the category, " Moderately-priced Carnauba Waxes".
So, yes, some store-bought products are very good.
Among the waxes provided to Bud by detailers for his wax test were, Rain Dance, Turtle Wax, Armor All,Eagle One, Blue Coral, Liquid Glass and Nu-finish . Based on that, I'd say some detailers are using store-bought products and Bud thought they were worth testing.
Turtle Wax Carnauba Car Wax T-6 was rated by Consumer Reports ( 7/06 ) excellent for gloss, durability and cleaning. It came in second of 17 liquid waxes.
Let me know how you like Malm's. Regards NEW AGAIN !
Doug

Doug:

Read the test again. Our test was 25 detailer products. The prior test done in the early 90's was with products the lab put together themselves and obviously they were store bought products.

The test we commissioned were all detailer professional products including a number of those name brands posted on the forum: Zymol; Klasse; Collinite; Meguairs, etc.

Do not make the assumption that someone who posts here is professional detailer just because they detail cars for money. There are far to many "wannabee" detailers out there short cutting their costs in everyway possible,just like you recommend.

The reality is that no one can really tell how good a product is without knowing the quality of the ingredients. An engine degreaser does a phenomenal job on carpets, but does that mean you should use it?

No one is right or wrong in this discussion it is just a matter of opinion. You can have yours and I have mine, let us not make this drag on with you against me.

Bud Abraham

Bud-
Honest mistake. I was leafing through your test to see if store-bought products were tested and didn't read carefully.
Doug

Gentlemen-
Chemical information ! This just in ! Meguiar's All Purpose Cleaner Plus is non-butyl ( and that includes the other names for butyl ). It contains an alkaline detergent made from alkaline salts. Oh, by the way, it is a severe eye and skin irritant and can cause respiratory irritation if breathed in. Ketch and Bud's suspicions are answered. My sore mouth was not caused by butyl, at least in the case of APP. The important lesson here is to wear a mask as a routine precaution , whether or not a chemical contains Butyl.
Griot's mistakenly sent me the wrong MSDS so I am still waiting to see what is in Paint Prep. Stay Tuned.
Doug

Doug

A chemical company can say a lot of misleading things in their marketing information, like no butyl

You see, Butuyl Cellusolve is a brand name, that is, a name owned by a company for the real ingredient which is generically called, GLYCOL ETHER.

Now a chemical might not use the Butyl Cellusolve brand of GLYCOL ETHER, but is can have it in the mix. You see my point.

An alkaline detergent??? What is that?

On the pH scale 7 is neutral and anything above 7 is alkaline and anything below 7 is acidic. What are alkaline salts? I have never heard of that? We make a great many alkaline products but we do not put alkaline detergents in the products we make detergents that are alkaline. I am also not familiar with an ingredient called "alkaline salts." Can you expand on the features of these ingredients?

Bud Abraham

Bud-
I just read the label. My research indicates that Butyl Cellosolve ( apparently this is the correct spelling ) is not a trade name.
Somehow I doubt Meguiar's would put one over on us and slip Glycol Ether into All Purpose Plus while claiming it is "non-butyl", especially since their other all-purpose product is proclaimed to contain butyl. AND THERE IS NO LABELING INDICATING GLYCOL ETHER, only alkaline detergent.
I'm satisfied that what I've got is something akin to Castrol's Super Cleen purple stuff, a powerful alkaline cleaner. I'm not a chemist and have no intention of becoming one just to be able to answer every question you can think up.
I said it contains alkaline detergent; perhaps I should have said it IS alkaline detergent. Whatever. I've given a good enough answer to satisfy any reasonable person. I don't have the MSDS, though.
Doug



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/18/2006 02:35PM by Doug Delmont.

To get this thread back on track, here's a look at Glass-Care 2000, which contains N-AlkylDimethylbenzyl Chloride (68391-01-05), N-AlkylDymethylbenzyl Chloride (68956-79-6), Silica (14808-60-7). Keep it off your eyes, skin and don't drink it and you'll probably be O.K. No sign of the dreaded Butyl ( or Glycol Ether ) anywhere on the label, best of all. Haven't got the all-important MSDS.
So where was I ? Oh yeah... The product is a mildly abrasive glass cleaner marketed under the Rain-X line. It is for glass that is so grimy or encrusted that it won't clean up any other way.
Rather than risk trying this stuff on a car's glass, I used it on some heavily water-spotted shower doors. It worked great. The doors came out spotless. This falls short of an actual battlefield test on car glass but I'm confident in the product and thought others would like to know. The product is also recommended for use on chrome. Call 1-800-542-6424 with any questions about this product ( Unelko Corp. )
DISCLAIMER: NO 17 YEAR OLDS SHOULD THINK THIS PRODUCT WILL MAKE THEM PROFESSIONAL DETAILERS-or house cleaners, for that matter (LOL).
Doug

Doug:

Not to try and discredit what you say, but to insure that readers of these posts are getting true facts I would say the following:

1. Butyl Cellosolve is a "brand" name for 2-butoxyethanol

2. If you go to www.sciencestuff.com/msds/C1396.html, you will find an MSDS sheet and you will note that Butyl Cellosolve has a circled R next to it, which means is is a "registered brand name."

3. Not absolutely certain of this, but I believe it is a brand name of Union Carbide.

Thank you for your thought-provoking posts.

Regards
Bud Abraham

Whats wrong with Butyl. We had a carpet cleaner with a lot of butyl in it . It was fantastic, I dont care how dirty your carpets were it would clean them. One guy at work used it to degrease engines. It is no longer made and as of yet I havent found a carpet cleaner that would work as WELL.

Looking into Glass Care 2000 I believe that Rainex no longer makes this product. Can you check your resources for me on that fact?

Regards
Bud Abraham

Larry:

Next week I will get you some information on the dangers of this product to human health. At one time the government was going to outlaw the use of this product because of it's health hazards but the chemical industry lobby must have done an excellent job of overturning that decision.

Regards
Bud Abraham

Butyl is also what the B stands for in GHB (the date rape drug). Just thought that was fairly interesting. It works well as a cleaner and the goverment wants to outlaw it sooooooo lets drink it!

Philip
Manager of detail Depmnt, Hadwin White Buick, GMC
Myrtle Beach, SC
E-mail: philipwsuggs@hotmail.com

I did hear that butyl in its PURE form is like DMSO. If you mix poison in it and got some on your skin it would get into your whole body.

I worked with horses for ten years before starting my business and that is absolutely correct. We used straight DMSO often on swollen tendons and if you did'nt wear gloves you would taste it for a week!

Philip
Manager of detail Depmnt, Hadwin White Buick, GMC
Myrtle Beach, SC
E-mail: philipwsuggs@hotmail.com

Larry:
I tried some AutoMagic carpet cleaner, a red liquid that I recall contained "glycol ether". You can check www.autowaxcompany.com .
The product worked well but I gave it away to a family whose son is a pro detailer because I owed them some favors.
Doug

I think you will find that most cleaners of any type will use this solvent in them

But to be sure ask our resident expert on chemicals, Ron Ketcham of Auto International.

Regards
Bud Abraham

Philip-
You write that you used to work on horses. I imagine you are aware that the name, "Philip", means "friend of horses". Both my grandfathers were named "Philip" and both bet on horses. Horse racing is called "The sport of kings" and my late mother opined that her father would have no interest in the races if they called it " The sport of bums ".
One note about "horse detailing". The American Indians are said to have oiled their horses to keep bugs off of them. When I was a kid, I asked a young girl who tended horses whether she oiled the horses and she informed me that oil is used on machinery, that horses are animals and do not need oil.
Lately, I encounter only the rear parts of horses...
Doug
" RE GHB-Someone put that date-rape drug in my drink one time...and I attacked the waitress." (LOL)