Latest Product Evaluation

Since when is everything on Google reliable ? Sounds like the appeal to authority all over again .
Doug

Boug, Doug, Doug,

Why is it not possible for you to reveal to visitors, posters, those who look in, and read posts, JUST WHO YOU ARE, AND WHAT YOU DO FOR A REAL LIVING?

You do realize that by "hiding" as you do, it does limit your creditability greatly.

If, you are real, if you actually do detailing, if you have actually done any testing, using any "accepted" protocals, not the "it's my way of testing" sort of thing, then, just maybe, some will actually read and accept what you are presenting.

As I have stated before, regarding the "title" of the forum, you have YET to devulge "who you are", "what you do for a living", if you are a "detailer who makes some income from your detailing skills", or are you just a "puff of smoke", who has an ego problem, and likes to blow smoke, lead others, who venture in to this forum, to "making your ego feel better?"

I have put it up before, here it goes again, let the reading posters, the visitors, make their OWN decisions.

www.autoint.com and click on "About Us", I am third down on the list.

In the past three weeks, I have been to Southern California, meeting with Mazda's HQ as part of my company's particpation in their Mexico and USA new body shop program, with Hyundai, in St Louis, where I conducted a 4, two hour seminars regarding "paint and interior concerns" for all of their 80 plus field engineers,(and they paid for all expenses), and to the Chicago Ford Customer Service Division, to go over for their field people paint, trim and interior concerns.

What have you done lately, professionally?

Has any vehicle manufacturer, ever believed what you say, offer, enough to pay or even request, that "you" do such?

Warm up your little guns, it is "get real" time.

As I always teach my students, my sales people, it is simple, "Don't lie, Don't Cheat, Don't steal".

Use valid, not "what I find", testing protocal's, SAE, ASTM, etc, and with a lot of years, you may be able to put this crap you have been presenting, behind you and than, who knows, you may sleep better.

Honest is the best way to go, not "ego".


Ketch

Quote
buda
Doug

Technicality, you are a private contractor for the government, does not make any difference. When you work for the government or with the government you have to be inefficient.

And, the information that I sited about the Appeal of Authority was verbatim taken from a site on www.google.com.

Regards
Bud A

Well, according to this response of yours, you are working in a "non-publically accountable or responsible" job, for your main income.

Bet your "benefits" are above and way beyound those of who are reading your "advice".

Nice to be in a posistion of "just show up and follow the rules, knowing that you can not be fired for not performing".

I do have to question, how those who are working outside of your protected enviorment, have to be totally accountable/responsible" for their daily work, actions, feel about that?

Ketch

To all,

The above post was directed at Doug, not Bud.

I feel it is time for the "Doug", to step out of the shadows, if he wished to truly be one who provides "valid and documented" advice.

After all, if one does not know who one is, who they are, what they truly do for a living, what their motivation is, how can they be trusted to be one who has anyone's, other than their own, best interest, regarding as what they may offer, wish you to believe?

Ketch

Bud, Ketch and Doug, You guys are the experts. We all know what you guys dont agree on , but the queston is what do you guys agree on. Of course the friction between you guys makes this site interesting.

Larry,
I have no doubt that this thread is interesting.

Not one to speak for Bud, however, I have known, personally, Bud for something like 30 years.

Bud and I have had and still have, our "disagreements', yet I respect Bud, if nothing else than he "doesn't hide when he makes a statement, plus he is a respected and honored, by the national and international, detailing industry.

Bud has "earned this respect", no hiding, he is what he is!

As, am I.

That is the reason, in my personal opinion, we are not bashful about our "observations" of Doug's method of "testing, promoting, telling people what products they should use, how they should use them", etc.

The question remains, "who is he", "what has he to show for time and experience in the industry", what does "he" really have to offer to those who seek documented knowledge regarding processes, procedures, chemical knowledge of various products used in the detailing industry, etc?

At this point in time, "NO ONE" knows anything about his true creditionals, his time as a detailer, his "expertise", which should be public knowledge if he continues to "be one who tells others how to use, what to use, etc" and yet, (read his threads/posts), "WHO IS HE, WHAT KNOWLEDGED EDUCATION OF CHEMICALS, WHAT IS HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH PAINT SUPPLIERS, VEHCILE MANUFACTURERS", etc?

Flapping of one's jaws, running of fingers over a computer's key board, etc, does not mean that one should be presenting their opinions, telling those who seek valid and documented information, unless it being done to just fulfill their "ego".

Ketch

Ketch is correct, he and I are what we are. Without being boastful we have years of experience in this industry, in the trenches, as well, we are involved in the formulation of chemicals. Ketch as a manufacturer who works with all of the OEM's all over the world.

While we do not manufacturer our own chemicals, we do work with private label companies who make our chemical to our specifications and I work personally with the chemists who formulate the products so I do have some idea of what ingredients are used, what they are for and why they do what they do. With that limited knowledge I can ask the chemist to adjust and get chemicals to do what we want them to do.

Ketch has daily contact with his chemists and takes back to the chemist what the OEM auto manufacturers require from their detail chemical products so I know that he has knowledge that far surpasses mine.

All that said our point here is that detailers need to understand that they have to be cautious in who they listen to when asking about products. There is simply no way for a detailer to know what a chemical can and will do.

Without a Glossometer to measure reflective gloss off a surface you really have no idea how shiny a product might be.

Without some scientific testing you absolutely do not know how long a product lasts on a finish.

If none of this information is of interest to detailers then Ketch and I are wasting our time and words trying to provide factual evidence about chemicals.

As Ketch says, we have our differences, but we are competitors that have a healthy respect for each other's knowledge.

Hope that clarifies the point of our posts on this subject.

Regard
Bud Abraham

Ketch and Bud-
My response is on the other thread . Bud- " Without being boastful " ?
Yeah, riiiiight .

You can recycle that statement that you need a glossometer to measure gloss a hundred more times if you wish, but Consumer Reports, The Guru Reports and a fellow named Barry Meguiar contradict you . If you couldn't judge gloss with your eyes, there would be no market for premium waxes like NXT, Medallion and Zaino . No one could tell the difference .
We already know your test relied on water beading to measure durability-not on some arcane scientific method .
Is it asking too much that you "tag team" members refrain from low blows, disingenuous statements and character assassination ?
Doug

Doug, I know Barry, personally, have for more than two decades.

There is so much I could say, but not one to put public somethings.

Barry is a great guy, a great businessman, one who you or anyone else would feel quite priviledged to send just a few minutes with.

That said, Barry is now an "image", and as he said to me a few years back, "I miss the old days, when I could just pick up a buffer and play, can't do that anymore, it's all about selling the image, the Mequiar's, etc."

I would never knock a friend, and I will not knock Barry.

Doug, Barry does not buff, polish cars, for a living, he has a large staff of people who are paid to do demo's, to test and develope products, to sell, to market his product line.

Mequiar's, for the past 10 years has been more of an "enthusist" line, and only in the past two years, started to move back, re-enter, the professional market place.

Mother's has placed some stress on their enthusist market, with some fine products, and even they are attempting to enter the professional market.

Both of these companies, yearly volume of sales, far exceed others in the enthusist market place.

3M, total volume, due to many factors, leads the industry in total sales volume of what is termed the "polish line" sales, with Mequiar's not far behind, followed by Mothers.

ArmorAll is not a factor in the "polish line" sales now, but still, in over all volume of "dressings" hangs on to the top spot due to their years of marketing and the carwash market.

Barry saw this, the way the market segments, years ago and took steps to put his brand back in the face of one part of the demograhics of the market place.


God bless him, he took a company that only 12 years ago was in deep "do-do" and turned it around, to what it is today.

He knows how to market, spend money in the right demographic market to be successful.

Ketch

Doug

Please contact www.toughguard.com and purchase 2 oz of this revolutionary product for $97.95 and give us your opinion. I am told by the company that it was used on Air Force 1, which I am not sure what that means, if anything.

The companay gives a 5 year no reapplication warranty.

This is the type of product that seems to attract your interest.

Regards
Bud Abraham

You know who needs to step up to the plate? Sal Zaino. (In an constructively positive manner of course.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2008 07:30PM by johnyb.

Got to agree with that, John.

However, I do feel it is required that I add one thing.

Sal has a business, he has products which he markets in his way, to a "small portion of the automotive industry's "car care market".

As I see it, since he and his company is doing well, doing what it does, why would he jump in and take part in this discussion?

(it appears that he has created his "people" to tout the products)

Heck,as a major supplier to the Big 3, not sure of why I am here, expect that I have always been, at heart, a detailer, still do some of hands on, and have a group of people in our company, which do their part of for the company.

Marketing to the "enthusist" market is not near as difficult as going through ther processes of "toxlogy, workplace safety, engineering, etc", as it is to use the internet, marketing, and build a small, but dedicated following.

Ketch

It looks to me as if two new members are trolls planted by Ketch...
Doug

Doug, I have "no trolls".

I am a professional in the industry, I don't have time to cultivate "trolls" and as a matter of fact, as I have presented, many times, those read my posts, would not be able to go to the store and purchase most of our products.

Automotive International is "not' a company, such as you are familiar with.

While we do have a web site, and anyone who choses to visit it, finds very quickly it is not one that is "buyer" friendly, however, it does provide a wealth of true, and documented, information regarding many of the paint/trim, etc issues that those who come here and read, information.

As I have stated before, many times, "we are not depending on a "cult following", as our customers are those suvh as Ford, GM, Chrysler, Mazda, Hyundai, Nissan, etc"

Ketch