Wheel Cleaning

There's been a debate on the Mobileworks forum about using dangerous acids to clean wheels of brake dust deposits. Bud and Ketch oppose the practice for the reason that the acids can cause health problems such as instant death if mis-handled and that acids are bad for the enviornment.
The "acid heads" argue that while Bud and Ketch are right, the acid still does a great job of cleaning etc.
I'm theorizing about a multi-step system that would clean the wheels without acid. This is what I've dreamed up so far:
1) Steam clean the wheels
2) Apply a citrus cleaner and let it dwell. Agitate and rinse.
3) ( This Must Be Invented ) Build a clay holder that can be mounted on a drill and clay the wheels with coarse clay.
4) Later, compound, polish and wax the wheels. Flitz Ball, Mother's Power Ball ?
Maybe this will provide the framework for a safe and systematic wheel cleaning routine. Looking forward to everyone's opinions.
Doug

Or, how about a wheel cleaner that is safe, but quick and effective, and is approved, even private labeled by DaimlerChrysler, Saab, Saturn, Renault, etc.

One that has been put through their world health and safety/toxology labs, then on to their wheel engineering groups to be proven safe and effective, or they would have not had it private labeled, under their brand name and market, so they may reduce warranty claims for wheels that are eaten up or discolored by "marketed brands"?

ValuGard Custom Wheel Cleaner, same product, as we make for these companies, safe, effective, just follow the directions, etc.

Ketch

Doug:

What is a citrus cleaner? What makes it different than a non-citrus cleaner?

Which cleans better, a citrus cleaner or a non-citrus cleaner?

Regards
Bud Abraham

Good question Bud.

We make several "citrus" cleaners, that do not contain delmoline, just an orange dye and a citrus fragarnce for some of our mass merchandiser customers.

They market them as "citrus cleaners", when in reality they are just a standard surfactant formula.

Ketch

Ketch:

You were not supposed to answer that question. I was trying to determine if Doug knew what that meant.

Regards
Bud A

Opps!

Sorry.

Ketch

Ketch:

No matter he did not answer anyway.

Bud Abraham

Because I jumped in and did not allow you to answer.

My apology for doing so.

ketch

In any case, Ketch that was my point. He makes the specific suggestion to use a citrus cleaner and I wondered if he knew what made a citrus cleaner different than any cleaner.

And, if a "citrus cleaner" is any better than a normal cleaner?

OK, I will ask Doug anothe question and Ketch you cannot answer this time:

Doug: Is a citrus cleaner the same as an engine degreaser? Yes___No___.
Why or why not?

Regards
Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS

Bud-
Easy does it ! I only dreamed up this untested system to provide a start for ideas. I often find that a multi-step process does something better than trying one thing. Feel free to modify it or replace it.
By citrus cleaner, I meant something like Citrigel or De-Solve-It or Goo Gone; cleaners made from orange peels and such. I've found these things do little if any damage to clearcoats and work best if allowed to soak in. I assume they would be effective on some of the substances caking wheels. Citrus cleaners can be used to clean engines but I understand that normal degreasers convert grease to soap or something while citrus ( correct me if I'm wrong ) doesn't.
I've tried wheel cleaners and found some ineffective while others clouded the clearcoat on the wheels. Coarse clay works but is time-consuming to use by hand. Same with Meguiar's All Metal Polish ( approved for coated wheels ).
Anyway, I side with you two guys against acid so I don't see the point of challenging my ( non-existant ) chemistry expertise.
Doug
" It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. "

Doug,

Just attempting to bring you more into the real world of what is car care chemistry, rather than the "mass market" products,which have an entirely different set of Federal laws to comply with, for one thing.

Plus, if the vehicle manufacturers do not "test and approve" a product, then the marketer can not say so.

We are not talking about a "local dealer's detailer" using a product, but the people who make the cars, buy the components, etc.

Much different than most realize.

Ketch

Doug:

Presenting the names of products in an effort to explain what a citrus cleaner is not providing the explanation I was looking for.

What I wanted to know is if you really understood what you meant when you said citrus cleaner.

As Ketch stated to you, "is it a citrus cleaner because it is orange and scented with orange?

Or, is it something else? And is it "the something else" that makes it better then a general all purpose cleaner?

The bottom line, is that "citrus cleaner" has become chemical buzz words like paint sealant; polymer; resin, etc.

Most cleaners use a solvent that is called gycol ether (brand name butyl cellusolve) in them. A very good and effective and inexpensive cleaning solvent.

However, this solvent is not necessarily environmentally-friendly and it one point there was some contention that it was carcengic and was nearly outlawed.

Enter, diLimonene a natural, environmentally-friendly solvent that could be used in place of butyl.

The smart orange juice processors who used to throw diLimonene away raised the price, substantiallly.

As a solvent, diLimonene is an excellent cleaner, but not necessarily any better than buytl, just more environmentally and individually friendly.

The chemical companies have just learned that the orange color and orange smell and the term "citrus cleaner" really sells product.

Detailers ought to be smarter than that, they are supposed to be professionals and a professional should know the ins and outs of the chemicals they use.

A citrus cleaner by nature will dissolve grease so it could be used as an engine degreaser. However, it will not work as fast or effective because it does not have caustics in it (sodium hydroxide) which literally burns grease off an engine block.

This will stain clear coat; it will stain clear-coated or naked alloy wheels and will "burn the hell" out of carpets.

Any solvent used in a strong enough concentration will cloud or stain clears, but is the incorrect use of a true engine degreaser that stains the clears more than naught.

Also the use of hydroflouric acid will cloud and dull clear coated wheels and paints when used over a long period of time. That is why touchless washes are deterimental to a painted finish if used time and time again.

Doug, with all due respect before you start making suggestions on using different chemicals you owe it to yourself and others on the forum you might see you as an expert, to investigate the nature of chemicals that you are using.

All you have to do is go to www.google.com and type in parentheis "xxxxx" the word and you will find a plethora of information on any subject. For example, type in "diLimonene" or "caustic" or "sodium hydroxide" or "butyl" or "glycol ether" you will get more information and knowledge than you knew was available, and best of all most of it is an easy read.

Most of all type in "hydroflouric acid."

You seem to think that Ketch and I have some personal crusade against wheel acids. Well, maybe we do, only because we know what a "killer" it is.

Again, there is nothing wrong with expressing opinions and giving advise, but you need to know what you are talking about before giving advise because some of it could be very dangerous when it comes to chemicals.

Just some well intentioned thoughts.

Regards
Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS

Doug:

Presenting the names of products in an effort to explain what a citrus cleaner is not providing the explanation I was looking for.

What I wanted to know is if you really understood what you meant when you said citrus cleaner.

As Ketch stated to you, "is it a citrus cleaner because it is orange and scented with orange?

Or, is it something else? And is it "the something else" that makes it better then a general all purpose cleaner?

The bottom line, is that "citrus cleaner" has become chemical buzz words like paint sealant; polymer; resin, etc.

Most cleaners use a solvent that is called gycol ether (brand name butyl cellusolve) in them. A very good and effective and inexpensive cleaning solvent.

However, this solvent is not necessarily environmentally-friendly and it one point there was some contention that it was carcengic and was nearly outlawed.

Enter, diLimonene a natural, environmentally-friendly solvent that could be used in place of butyl.

The smart orange juice processors who used to throw diLimonene away raised the price, substantiallly.

As a solvent, diLimonene is an excellent cleaner, but not necessarily any better than buytl, just more environmentally and individually friendly.

The chemical companies have just learned that the orange color and orange smell and the term "citrus cleaner" really sells product.

Detailers ought to be smarter than that, they are supposed to be professionals and a professional should know the ins and outs of the chemicals they use.

A citrus cleaner by nature will dissolve grease so it could be used as an engine degreaser. However, it will not work as fast or effective because it does not have caustics in it (sodium hydroxide) which literally burns grease off an engine block.

This will stain clear coat; it will stain clear-coated or naked alloy wheels and will "burn the hell" out of carpets.

Any solvent used in a strong enough concentration will cloud or stain clears, but is the incorrect use of a true engine degreaser that stains the clears more than naught.

Also the use of hydroflouric acid will cloud and dull clear coated wheels and paints when used over a long period of time. That is why touchless washes are deterimental to a painted finish if used time and time again.

Doug, with all due respect before you start making suggestions on using different chemicals you owe it to yourself and others on the forum you might see you as an expert, to investigate the nature of chemicals that you are using.

All you have to do is go to www.google.com and type in parentheis "xxxxx" the word and you will find a plethora of information on any subject. For example, type in "diLimonene" or "caustic" or "sodium hydroxide" or "butyl" or "glycol ether" you will get more information and knowledge than you knew was available, and best of all most of it is an easy read.

Most of all type in "hydroflouric acid."

You seem to think that Ketch and I have some personal crusade against wheel acids. Well, maybe we do, only because we know what a "killer" it is.

Again, there is nothing wrong with expressing opinions and giving advise, but you need to know what you are talking about before giving advise because some of it could be very dangerous when it comes to chemicals.

Just some well intentioned thoughts.

Regards
Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS

Doug:

Presenting the names of products in an effort to explain what a citrus cleaner is not providing the explanation I was looking for.

What I wanted to know is if you really understood what you meant when you said citrus cleaner.

As Ketch stated to you, "is it a citrus cleaner because it is orange and scented with orange?

Or, is it something else? And is it "the something else" that makes it better then a general all purpose cleaner?

The bottom line, is that "citrus cleaner" has become chemical buzz words like paint sealant; polymer; resin, etc.

Most cleaners use a solvent that is called gycol ether (brand name butyl cellusolve) in them. A very good and effective and inexpensive cleaning solvent.

However, this solvent is not necessarily environmentally-friendly and it one point there was some contention that it was carcengic and was nearly outlawed.

Enter, diLimonene a natural, environmentally-friendly solvent that could be used in place of butyl.

The smart orange juice processors who used to throw diLimonene away raised the price, substantiallly.

As a solvent, diLimonene is an excellent cleaner, but not necessarily any better than buytl, just more environmentally and individually friendly.

The chemical companies have just learned that the orange color and orange smell and the term "citrus cleaner" really sells product.

Detailers ought to be smarter than that, they are supposed to be professionals and a professional should know the ins and outs of the chemicals they use.

A citrus cleaner by nature will dissolve grease so it could be used as an engine degreaser. However, it will not work as fast or effective because it does not have caustics in it (sodium hydroxide) which literally burns grease off an engine block.

This will stain clear coat; it will stain clear-coated or naked alloy wheels and will "burn the hell" out of carpets.

Any solvent used in a strong enough concentration will cloud or stain clears, but is the incorrect use of a true engine degreaser that stains the clears more than naught.

Also the use of hydroflouric acid will cloud and dull clear coated wheels and paints when used over a long period of time. That is why touchless washes are deterimental to a painted finish if used time and time again.

Doug, with all due respect before you start making suggestions on using different chemicals you owe it to yourself and others on the forum you might see you as an expert, to investigate the nature of chemicals that you are using.

All you have to do is go to www.google.com and type in parentheis "xxxxx" the word and you will find a plethora of information on any subject. For example, type in "diLimonene" or "caustic" or "sodium hydroxide" or "butyl" or "glycol ether" you will get more information and knowledge than you knew was available, and best of all most of it is an easy read.

Most of all type in "hydroflouric acid."

You seem to think that Ketch and I have some personal crusade against wheel acids. Well, maybe we do, only because we know what a "killer" it is.

Again, there is nothing wrong with expressing opinions and giving advise, but you need to know what you are talking about before giving advise because some of it could be very dangerous when it comes to chemicals.

Just some well intentioned thoughts.

Regards
Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS

Bud- Thanks for the info and I will do some googling now that you've given me the idea. I thought it was pretty clear that I agreed with you on acids by the way I light-heartedly labeled your opponents "acid heads". I also made it clear that my idea in this thread was only a framework for a process yet to be developed and tested. That isn't an irresponsible approach, is it ?
Doug
" A turtle doesn't make any progress until he sticks his neck out."

Bud : Here's a quiz for you. Do you know what to do if a customer's car battery goes dead ? What is the proper way to jump it ? Should you jump it ? What two other techniques are safer for the cars ? What parts of the car can be damaged by jumping a dead battery ? What is the ideal way to avoid damage and get the car started ? How can you decide whether to recommend a new battery ? What are the safety rules for working with batteries--or under the hood in general ? How should you clean a battery without risking damage to it ?
These are things a capable detailer should have the answers to.
Doug

In my shops that were in auto malls I had the mechanic shop come over and start the car for us.

In other situations I would call AAA.

Regards
Bud Abraham

Bud,

He makes a "sort of" point.

But then, most who are in or trying to become part of the detailing industry, are "gearheads" and have some experience in other than the detailing portion.

Of course, being the one that I am, with my vast years of building cars, doing bodywork, etc, have a pretty good idea of what he is saying, and it's not to far off of correct.

I agree with you, if one is not sure, call in those who do or attempt to profess, that they do know.

But, then those who are so knowledgable, know what to do when they look under the hood and there is "no" battery, right?

Like, everyone knows that a battery is located under the hood, in the engine compartment, right?

Whoops, no battery, now what do I do?

Wait, I better back off here, I may be stepping on someone, who posts a lot of questions, toes.

Ketch

Bud- What a coincidence ! When I need a chemical product, I rely on chemists.

Ketch- Look behind the front bumper on a Dodge Stratus or its clones. Under the rear seat on an old VW Bug, in the trunk on some Rolls Royces...If you still can't find it, follow the cable from the starter. Did you ever try to find the trans dipstick on an old Pontiac Tempest ?
Doug

Doug:

When you need a chemical product you reply on chemists? Puzzling as I have seen numerous posts where you indicate you buy your products at the Dollar Store and are suggesting to others to do the same.

Last time I looked I saw no chemists working in the Dollar Store.

A bit puzzled by your comment.

Bud

buda

Bud-
I think you understand perfectly, that your dependence on auto mechanics to jump cars is analogous to my dependence on chemists to design the products and tell me how to use them.
You have touted your own products as being less expensive than some name brands. Now you chide me for using products that only cost a dollar but do a better job than some name brand products. You want to have it both ways. I reserve the right to shop at dollar stores but if where I shop is reflective of my competence, at least give me credit for buying from such expensive and prestigious firms as Zaino, Griot's, Malm's and Zymol.
You and Ketch are behaving like a couple of schoolgirls who try to bully other girls on the Web. Next I suppose you will be making fun of my clothes, weight, friends, jewelry and choice of shopping mall but Ketch will be catty enough not to mention my name. If forum members want to explore new ideas and products, lets help them. If they want to be juvenile, they can go to www.myspace.com. They don't need to read our quizzes and games.
Also. You know full well that I did not ( as you claim ) suggest that anyone buy their supplies at dollar stores. You have, in the past knocked discount stores as well. It looks as if the only supplier you find satisfactory is...you.

I notice that neither you or a certain gearhead have bothered to answer the battery quiz despite my answering your citrus quiz ( relatively correctly, I might add ).

Doug
Doug

Gentlemen :
To return to the topic----A local body shop owner tells me he removed brake dust from chrome wheels with CLR ( Calcium/Lime/Rust ), a household product. He simply wiped it on and pressure washed it off. The product did not work very well on clearcoated wheels and polished aluminum.
Doug
" Unless you are the lead sled dog, your view never changes."