" Which is Worse

In your experience and opinion which chemical is worse, or should I say, more dangerous to use on wheels:

a. Alkaline cleaners?

b. Acid cleaners?

Let us know what you use and how you use it.

If you have had damage problems what chemical was used; how and what happened to the wheel.

Was the wheel a clear-coated wheel or a "naked" alloy wheel such as magnesium or aluminum, etc.

Regards
Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS

Niether I use ROLLOFF / CITRIGEL or DAWN W/BLEACH works great for me I always advised customer of problem with the vehicle during our inspection of the vehicle so I wont have that PROBLEM UNDERSTAND. Hope that help in your survey

New Again:

Sorry to disappoint you, but a cleaner is either an alkaline or an acid your Citrigel is listed on the company's website as a all purpose degreaser and if you read the MSDS you will see it is not much different than any other degreaser/cleaner, other than this product uses diLimonene as the solvent instead of butyl. One is no better than the other but diLimonene is a natural solvent which is better for the environment than butyl. However, diLimonene is known to cause cancerous tumors in rats. Also, the MSDS indicates that Citrigel also has various hydrocarbon disperants, which means it might even have butyl in it too.

As for DAWN, this is a dishwashing detergent. The Proctor&Gamble MSDS indicates that this product contains "sodium hydroxide" which is a caustic, the same ingredient used in high alkaline engine degreasers to "burn" grease and dirt off the engine surfaces. This will severely stain aluminum, magnesium, etc.

The bleach that you mix dawn with is an acid.

It appears that you have not read your MSDS nor do you know anything about chemicals nor their composition.

Your posting is a perfect example of why detailers should not try to be chemists and mix things together without at lease reading the MSDS which you should get from every chemical supplier you do business with. And, you should simply buy chemicals from legitimate detail chemical suppliers who sell chemicals for the purposes for which they were formulated.

You are lucky up to this point that you have not damaged any wheels using the products you indicate.

Just well intentioned information.

Regards
Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS

New Again:

Left another important point out about mixing Dawn (an alkaline chemical) with Bleach (an acid).

In the two step wash process you spray on an acid and then neutralize it with the alkaline, The first application of acid and then the second application of the alkaline allows the chemicals to release the dirt's bond to the surface you are using the chemical on.

However, if you mix the two together you are already neutralizing the acid before it has a chance to work by itself on the surface, in this case, the wheel. Although I am not certain I would spray Bleach on a wheel in the first place.

Regards
Bud Abraham

Bud :
What we have here is a failure to communicate ( to borrow a line from the classic movie, " Cool Hand Luke " ). No doubt, what New Again was referring to is a product called " Dawn With Bleach Alternative ". You understood him to be mixing Bleach with Dawn and using the mixture to clean wheels, an iffy idea at best !

From what you wrote about HF, I'd have to guess acid is more dangerous than alkali. I say I have to guess because I have no intention of fooling with acid to find out. I suspect your surprise answer will be that an alkali of sufficient strength would be as dangerous as an acid. That would be an academic matter because alkaline cleaners are always bought pre-diluted.
Doug

" Don't worry about the mule, just load the wagon."

Doug:

Went to the Proctor & Gamble website and found the MSDS for DAWN and it did not indicate it contained Bleach. DAWN is a dishwashing detergent, there is no reason for it to have bleach in it, in the first place. Further, the same principle would apply as I have mentioned mixing the two together rather than applying the acid then the aklaline.

HF acid is very dangerous to the human, but it is not as dangerous as some think on a vehicle. In fact, when cars had real chrome trim on them years ago it was a common practice for detailers to spray the chrome trim and emblems with HF acid to clean them. That is, while they were on the car.

Further, touchless car washes today use HF as a first step and then an alkaline to neutralize the acid then high pressure water to wash cars. So you see your assumption it is dangerous only applies to the human.

Of course, some alkaline cleaners, such as Easy-Off Oven Cleaner is a dangerous cleaner to the human and to the vehicle if used there.

However, all cleaners be they dishwashing detergents; carpet shampoos; vinyl cleaners; all purpose cleaners; engine degreasers, etc are ALKALINE. They can range in strength from a pH of 8 to 14, 14 being the "hottest." Take some powdered laundry and put it in your hand, it will feel hot. That is a sign of high alkalinity.

Alkaline cleaners from my point of view can be more damaging to wheels than acid because if you use one that is too hot, such as an engine degreaer with a high pH and a caustic in it, such as sodium hydroxide you will stain the clear coat irrepairaly. It can also stain the clear on car too if it gets on it. That is why you need to wet the car down, even soap it down before using a hot engine degreaser on the engine.

Hope that clears up your "guessing."

Bud Abraham

Bud-
I found " Dawn With Bleach Alternative " on the Proctor and Gamble Web site.
I used their search feature. You can also find it by walking into Wal-mart and clicking on " detergent aisle ". Look again. " Seek and Ye shall find. "
I suspect that the product does not contain actual bleach but rather a " bleach alternative " similar to the one added to some laundry detergents.
I'm sure this is the product New Again uses.
I doubt that dishwashing liquid contains enough harsh ingredients to seriously damage wheels. After all, it has to be safe for hands, plasticware, china and stainless steel pots. Zaino recommends using Dawn to strip wax. Colgate-Palmolive says Palmolive dish liquid is recommended as a car wash soap and I've heard testimonials that repeated use worked out fine. I tried it and saw no ill effects and it worked well.
I use car wash soap to be sure it is gentle enough and to look professional.
Doug
" If you are following me, I dont mind 'cause if you are following me, you're one step behind."-Ray Kroc-

Thanks for correcting my error I missed that on the site.

But, as you say, bleach alternative. I do not know what that means.

I stick by my comments, and of course, you can hold your opinions.

However, I believe that detailers waste far too much time trying to be chemists and "beating the system" when all they have to do is buy chemicals from legitimate suppliers for what they were designed to do.

Then spend their time concentrating on the business of detailing, rather than venturing into areas where they should not be treading.

Just my opinion.

Regards
Bud Abraham

Thanks Doug and Bud great info,
Bud, What about hotwheels when they come to the autospa and then its sprayed with and alkaline and or acid thats how most wheels IMO is distroyed. Most dont have the time to clean there vehicle so is taken to an auto spa where time is money they are not going to wait fot it to get COOL. Didn't you own a couple of those?

One of the first things we taught our employees and we teach those we train in the art of detailing is on engines and wheels to not work on hot engines or hot wheels. Let them cool down before spraying with water and especially with chemical.

In all cases I have seen if you spray first an acid on the cool wheel that has been wetted down with water and then spray an alkaline to neutralize you have no staining or problem with the wheels.

Why do you think that companies make a wheel acid or a non-acid wheel cleaner? Because they are to be used on wheels to clean them without damage. It is the human factor that causes the problem.

In fact, in most automatic carwashes it is the human factor that causes the damage. Just yesterday my employee forgot to put a plastic bag protector over the rear window wiper of a Dodge Magnum and guess what? The wiper blade was damaged.

I personally forgot to retract the top brush on a SUV that had a hood over the front windshield and the top brushe literally "ripped" it off the car.

It was not the fault of the machine, but of the human involved.

So it is with damage in the detailing business. It is humans who do not know what they are doing or do not read the use instructions or simply are too lazy to follow instructions or procedures.

By Auto Spa's if you mean carwashes keep in mind they are mindful of what damages and does not damage a car. They work hard, at least the good operators do, to insure a vehicle is not damaged when it goes thru the wash. It takes a great many car washes to cover the cost of a $1,000 wheel, or even a rear wiper. The customer took the car to the Dodge dealer and came back with a bill for $50. That is 10 carwashes just to cover that cost.

Regards
Bud Abraham

Bud and New Again-
I see it as the customer's responsibility to let his rotors and wheels cool before putting his car in a carwash tunnel. It might be nice for these operations to educate the customers but how can they be expected to let each car sit before washing it ?
I personally use a combination approach ; the car sits and then the wheels are misted with water to gradually cool them the rest of the way.
Doug

Hi Bud. First, let me say thanks to all who particapate in this forum,it is very
helpful to all.
I think acid is worse than alkaine on wheeles. I have had sucuess with both but
I have only had a problem with the acid. It was a set of chrome Mercedes Benz
rims. Wheeles where too warm, and I didn,t spray enough acid on the whole
rim. Clean streaks all down the rim. I didn't notice until I took the car back to
the lady. I don,t remember what happened. I don,t think she cared.
I use New Wave by Ardex now. I mix it 3 or 4 to 1 depending how bad the rims are.
In most cases I can spray it on and blast it off with the power washer. The rims
and tires come clean.
Joe.

Just be very careful that you use only a low pH wheel cleaner because if you get a high pH alkaline cleaner on the wheels that has a high concentration of caustic in it, it will stain the clear coat on most wheels today to the point you cannot remove it.

The stain is usually a cloudy white.

Regards
Bud Abraham

I was tooling thru some of these old threads, (because evidently everyone is in christmas mode, to busy to post).And I don't understand why everybody is so afraid of acidic wheel cleaners. Now having said that, any newbie just starting out SHOULD NOT go out and buy some wheel acid until you have read every post on this forum, and other forums concerning acids. Betwwen Bud and ketch there's enough info here to learn what you need to know. But I digress, I have been using an acid based wheel cleaner for years and have'nt had a problem yet. Now granted I always do one side at a time and the wheel is quickly rinsed. But it does the job so good that (with pressure of course), I never even touch the wheels with my hands. It also works wonders on tail pipes or visible gas tanks. Like I said no one should use ANY chemical until you've thoughroly researched said product. But as far as experienced detailers I do understand the hesitation but you are supposed to know what you're doing. Help me understand.


Hope everyone had a good thanksgiving!

Philip
Manager of detail Depmnt, Hadwin White Buick, GMC
Myrtle Beach, SC
E-mail: philipwsuggs@hotmail.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2006 02:01PM by st. legal.

Philip:

Good question about the use of hydroflouric acid. There is no question that it is a very effective cleaner, HOWEVER, the dangers associated with it's use to the human is what most car wash operators and detailers are concerned with.

It can be a killer, long term and even short term. So the question one has to ask themselves is "do I want to be using a chemical that, in the event of an accident, could kill me?"

To be safe a person using HF acid should wear rubber gloves; rubber apron; safety glasses and a respirator. It is hard to believe that every detailer would go thru these safety precautions in using it.

Regards
Bud Abraham
DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS