New paint - too soft

I had a black g35 repainted and was not told that the paint(rear quarter panel) needed to cure before waxing. Now everytime I wash the vehicle I end up having to remove fine horizontal scratches left by microfiber wash towels. I have even gone to the extent of using a leaf blower to dry that part of the vehicle to minimize the scratches.
My question is, can the paint on the repainted panel be hardened somehow other than repainting?

I would go to the best body and paint shop in the area and ask them what is the problem with the quarter panel.

Today's paints are high solids vs the lower solids of yesterday, but they are not that soft that they should scratch with the wipe of a towel.

It could be that the company that painted your vehicle could have mis-mixed the paint and created a problem. But you need to have an expert look at it.

If, in fact, they have done it wrong you can ask for them to correct it. If they do not, take them to small claims court with your expert witness and you will win.

Bud Abraham

Thanks Bud, I will do that, but I doubt anybody from the body shop would want to waist a day in court.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2007 01:04AM by oli.

What you learn in business is NEVER answer for anyone else. They just might take a liking to you and want to help.

Many times when a company gets a summons from the court they get scared and are willing to settle so you might get lucky.

No one likes a hacker in their industry.

Bud Abraham

Bud, this is what I know thus far. I went to one shop and the guy was an a*** h***, and didn't know and wasn't sure. The sky was overcast and you couldn't see the problem, but I explained to him. The next shop, a rather big car repair shop, you could put a 747 in there, they were much more helpful. There, they said black was a very difficult colour to deal with. They were not really sure either but didn't think it was necessarily too soft. He said the area that had been repainted has been sanded down and there is no orange peel, as the rest of the car, and his may also have an affect to bringing more to the forefront the small surface scratches that I am experiencing.
So his suggestion was to talk to the paint rep. that supplies the shop where the work was done and see he thinks.

Looks like you are making some progress. Talk to the paint reps and let me know what they say.

Regards
Bud Abraham

I finally got around to getting to the body shop before the man in the know left for the day. Thus far I know that the paint was Sikkens. I talked to someone in the company who will attempt to set up an examination of my car. We will see what goes from here. Will be back as soon as I far out more

Since 5-11, I've been trying to get one of the Sikkens guys out, and each time (3X), he was a no show. So finally today the manager at Sikkens says he did some research and discovered they haven't sold paint to this particular body shop since 2003. So he suggested I take some nail polish or a tinner and rub an area, to see if the paint gets soft. The only other thing to do is go back to the body shop and ask them to repaint or apply a couple of clear coats. I have a feeling I will have a fight on my hands, maybe even small claims, I don't know how it will turn out. He might say I didn't let it cure long enough, so its my fault.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/15/2007 08:33PM by oli.

I cannot believe that a Sikkens rep told you to use nail polish remover and rub and area to see if the paint gets soft? That does not even make sense. Certainly I would not do it.

Considering all that you have been thru I would suggest going back to the body shop, which I thought you had done initially, and tell them you are not happy with the results of the paint job. That you get scratching when wiping the car down after washing on the area they painted vs the rest of the car.

That is the problem is it not, that the newly painted area scratches and the older paint does not?

See what they say and will do. If nothing then your only alternative is to spend a few bucks to file a suit in Small Claims Court. This often makes the company simply negotiate with you rather than waste time going to court.

If you do go to court and you have a legitimate claim you will win.

But you need to know how to present your case. They will not admit or listen to any heresay evidence. If you have got experts that will say this or that you have to have them there in court.

Take photos etc.

By the way, did you take the car to the dealer and see what they or their body shop says about the problem?

Regards
Bud Abraham

Thanks Bud for the response. It has been my intention all along to go back to the body shop, I just wanted some professional info. in my pocket before I go back. Knowing them, they would say, it looks fine to them, its something I'm doing, or something out of left field that I might be unprepared to respond to. Maybe I'm being negative, but I hate going into a confrontation without some ammunition. I sure hope I don't need to look for someone to go with me to court, that would be such a big hasle.
OBTW the body shop in question is the recommended shop by the Infiniti dealership



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/16/2007 04:44PM by oli.

Oli:
I think you are over-complicating this problem. Normally, the best way to handle a consumer complaint is to notify the offending company immediately and ask for whatever remedy you think you deserve. That way you are on record as having given them a chance to resolve things. If they refuse, then re-evaluate the case.
Right now, it is not your responsibility to figure out why the paint may be too soft. The "why" is their responsibility. You only need to show that the paint is, in fact, too soft and ask them to correct it. If they refuse, then try to get expert opinion, perhaps write the company a letter, maybe have a lawyer write a letter and consider a small claims suit. You may also be able to get help from a Consumer Affairs office in your state or county or from the state's attorney general.
You could ask for a cash refund ( full or partial ) and have the work redone elsewhere if you wish.
Doug

Thanks Bud and Doug. So,here is my experience at the body shop/shops. I stopped in at the shop that did the painting, but the manager was not due in until later. While waiting in the lobby a guy comes in looking for Juan the manager and was told he would be in shortly. I see the guy has a ppg shirt on and so I ask him if he supplies paint for the shop and he says yes. (I found out earlier that Sikkens hadn't sold the shop any paint since '03.) So I figure this is great now I can find out from the rep whats happening with the paint. To make a long story short, he was at a loss as to what is the problem. Finally Juan shows up and so we go out to the car and I tell him my situation. He seems to be an upfront kind of guy willing to satisfy the customer. He tells me I have a black car and they are very hard to keep scratches to a minimum, and that I am always going to have these scratches. He knew I was particularly fussy kind of kind of guy about keeping a car as perfect as possible, and was not surprised that I use a leaf blower to dry to car to keep scratches to a minimum.
The other problem is with the state regs that now they have to use a water type paint - I am not quite clear on that, and it makes getting paint the right amount of hardness even more difficult. I asked about just laying down another coat of clear and he says when you keep adding layers then the paint gets too thick and then you have cracking down the road.
From there I went to another body shop that has alot of BMW and Mercedes. He said basically the same thing, that to get the paint hard as the factory would melt rubber parts of the car. I know I can't get my paint as hard as the factory but the paint being this sensitive to scratches is not normal to say the least.
I know nobody would go with me to court, but anyway, Doug, your suggest is very much appreciated and I will take to heart. Stay tuned.
OBTW where do I get an expert opinion - another body shop?

This is more fiction than truth to what he is telling you.

Yes, government regulations about the emissions of VOC's into the atmosphere have been severly regulated which has caused the paint manufacturers to paints that do not omit as much solvents into the atmosphere. For the record, the solvents or thinners are the carriers for the paint to deliver the paint to the surface. When the solvents dry the paint is cured, more or less.

So what you have today are paints that contain more solids than in the past.

Also, to keep up with government regulations the auto paint manufacturers have been experimenting for a long time with water based automotive paints.

As far as I know, to date, they have come up with effective water-based base-coat paints, but still use solvent-based clear-coats.

So what Juan told you was partially true and partially false, in that the water based paint is used on the base-coat, but not on the clear-coat which is where you are experiencing the scratching.

In either case, for that matter, you should not be experiencing the scratches.

Tell Juan you want him to wet/dry sand the paint, then buff it out and get rid of the scratches. It is a "cop-out" to say that you have to accept the scratches, they can be eliminated if someone is willing to work at it.

That is what good detailers do, get rid of scratches for discriminating customers.

Regards
Bud Abraham

Hi Bud:
I don't have a problem getting out the scratches. When I am done the paint is near perfect, scratch free, and this is before I add any protection. After I wash the car, it will take me about an hour, per panel, to get them all out with the help of an inspection light and my rotary. We're talking, the rear bumper, trunk lid, the quarter panel and passenger door.
I will be formulating my letter for the shop and the insurance company that is associated with the shop. I then forward it on to the Consumer Affairs.
Thanks

So these were the areas that were repainted? Then there is a problem with the refinish job.

Have about this? Take the car to another shop and tell them you have this problem with scratches on these areas and what can they do about it. Do not tell them you have had the car repainted, simply that you have this problem and see what they tell you. If they say you need to have the car repaint, buffed, etc. have them give you an estimate.

In fact, why not go to three other shops and get three independent bids and if they all come up with a correction procedure, whatever it is, then go back to the first shop and tell them here is what three other shops said and you want the car fixed.

If they refuse then file a small claims suit and bring your three bids with you.

Regards
Bud Abraham

Wow, another good suggestion. You are correct, Bud, these are the areas that were repainted. That's what I love about this site, good people, helping people in need.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2007 12:47AM by oli.

Let us know what happens.

Bud Abraham

Just a quick update. I called the insurance company and said I was unhappy and what procedure do I need to follow to get my problem resolved. They wanted to make a three party call with the body shop, but I declined, since I had already talked with him, I wanted an alternative method. The insurance co. said to drop the car off at the body shop and the claims adjuster would go over it with the body shop.
So thats the latest.

Oli-
Today, I asked a body shop owner and co-owner about your paint problem. Both of them told me that such soft paint means the shop that painted it did something wrong, such as not adding enough hardener.
They said that the mere fact the shop uses PPG would not prevent them from using some cheap no-name clear-coat on your car.
They added that if you get no satisfaction, you should ask for the name of the PPG rep in your area and tell him you have a problem with his paint. Let him blame the body shop. Failing that, search the web and contact PPG headquarters.
Doug

Oli

Doug is correct in that if the painter did not put in the correct amount of hardener the paint may not have cured properly. I discussed this with our paint supplier Akzo-Sikkens, a top European company with offices in the USA.

However, as you have already tried, I would not waste my time with PPG, they will not help you.

What you need to do is get some quotations from other body shops and their evaluation of the problem and then go back to the first shop. If they do not assist you then file a small claims court suit. You will win, hands down if you have evidence from other shops that a mistake was made.

Bud Abraham

Doug Delmont Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oli-
> Today, I asked a body shop owner and co-owner
> about your paint problem. Both of them told me
> that such soft paint means the shop that painted
> it did something wrong, such as not adding enough
> hardener.
> They said that the mere fact the shop uses PPG
> would not prevent them from using some cheap
> no-name clear-coat on your car.
> They added that if you get no satisfaction, you
> should ask for the name of the PPG rep in your
> area and tell him you have a problem with his
> paint. Let him blame the body shop. Failing
> that, search the web and contact PPG
> headquarters.
> Doug


Doug, I did happen upon the PPG rep while I was waiting for the manager (Juan) to return. The rep was at a loss as to what the problem was and that was it.

Okay. So, do I go with the claims adjuster idea, that I leave the car at the body shop and he will drop by to discuss it with the shop manager. OR, forget that and go with the 3 quotes? OR do I do both?

Oli-
I see nothing wrong with letting the claims adjuster look at the car. You can always try other things if you don't resolve it that way. Going to court should be a last resort and if you doubt me on that, try it once.
Doug

OLI-
YOU CAN GO TO A BODYSHOP AND ASK FOR THEM TO JUST APLLY ANOTHER CLEARCOAT AND NOT THE PAINT. IF DONE RIGHT YOU WILL NOTICE THE DIFFERENCE. IT SHOULDNT COST MUCH. I HAD IT DONE TO MY BMW AND CAME OUT PERFECT AFTER CLEAR CURED AND WAS BUFFED



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2007 03:50AM by mike305.

So here is the latest news, but not the last. Before I went on vacation, I tried to get hold of the claims adj., but she wouldn't return my calls. After I came back I tried again with the same deal, but finally got someone else who returned my call right away. Anyway I explained my problem, and it was like talking to microsoft or a software company. It couldn't be the body shop, maybe it was how I washed the car or how I polish the car. As he said "Two red flags came up from talking to you. First it took two years (10-22-'05)for you to decide you had a problem with the paint and the other is that with you polishing so often, you may have gone through the clear coat." He wanted me to then called the Infiniti dealership and ask for another bodyshop and then fax over what they have decided is the problem. Then 5 min. later he calls back and says he will set up a meeting with the original body shop and the paint rep to look at my car. The body shop can do no wrong, so it must be the customer, who obviously doesn't know what he is doing. I guess that would mean the other body shops I've been to, don't know what their talking about either.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/30/2007 05:01PM by oli.

oli-
My body man responded to this sort of B.S. ( the denial that the body shop screwed up ) by laughing and moving his fist in a sexually suggestive way.
Doug

Okay, so I am going to ask this question. What would you do if you were in my situation? I have been told, even before going to the question of the paint being too soft, that the paint is dull when compared to the factory painted areas. It just doesn't have the shine. I have been to two body shops and also one professional detailer, and they have all looked at the car and examined the paint. They all arrived at the same dx. As I mentioned, the claims adj., discounted that I had been to the 2 body shops and a detailer, and pointed the finger at me, without even seeing the car. So here I am going to soon meet the claims adj., a PPG paint rep,and the manager of the body shop, both with the opinion that I am to blame and there is nothing wrong with the paint work - 2 or 3 against one.
I was thinking I could try and get 3 body shops, including another Infiniti body shop, to write up a quote with the reason for the repaint and take that to court with me. I don't know if that is enough to make me win, but I know no body shop person is going to go with me to court, without being paid.
So that is the situation as it stands now and want to know what you would do in my situation



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/01/2007 02:13PM by oli.

Considering the amount of time and energy you have put into this with no resolution I would forget it and caulk it up the "lesson learned."

On the other hand I did tell you long ago to get your evidence together and file a suit in Small Claims Court against the body shop. That is what Small Claims Court is all about, protecting the consumer against companies that do not deliver.

If what you say is as true as you say then you will have no problem winning.

If you are not willing to go to court then forget it.

Regards
Bud Abraham

I'd take it to small claims.

The cost of filing a claim will be smaller than getting your car totally re-sprayed by a good body shop.