Why not to use wax in your business

I have been a detailer since the late 80's in SW Florida, and I have detailed
boats up to 60 ft,several 737-800's for a major airline, and many cars and trucks.
One thing I see all the time is someone who wants to start a mobile detail
business, and thinks that cranking out work will keep you in business.My complete
details on a car will take 4 hours min. to do properly, but if you cut corners
and spend less time, you will be out of business.

What makes a great detail is time,the right products,and knowledge.Working
for a car dealership does not make you a expert, nor does taking a 3 day seminar.

Car Wax is what I consider the most useless substance known to man for protecting
paint.If dish soap will remove wax, then what good is it? It sticks to the clear
coat which attracts dirt, grime,salt,bugs,and treesap over time which dulls the shine.This leads to buffing, wearing the clearcoat down, and swirl marks.

Paint sealents are much better than wax. They bond to the clearcoat and protect it
from damage. They can withstand extreme heat and cold, and the shine is equal
or better than the best wax.They will last for a year which my customers love,
and I get new business from their friends and relatives. I may not do their
cars as often,but they call me every year to maintain the shine and protection.

My advice to anyone new to this business is to give value to someone. When someone
is spending a $150, and a week later they cannot tell any difference. Well,do'nt
expect a call back.Plus, you are creating a bad image for this business.Lastly,
teflon wax is still wax.If the label says wax on it, that's what it is!

Bill

Could not agree with you more that a paint sealant is a far superior product to a wax in terms of ease of application, removal and durability.

The problem has been that chemical companies have charged up to $45 a quart for sealants whereas a wax could be purchased for $7.00 a can or at worst, $18 a gallon. The reality is they are better, but not that much better.

Further, I would not agree that waxes are as bad as you indicate, suffice it to say they are not as good as paint sealants mainly because they use amino functional silicones vs standard silicone fluids, but they do offer a measure of protection.

Will be writing a definitive article on the properties of waxes and sealants and why they are different and which are better in the January issue of Professional Carwashing and Detailing magazine. You should read it.

INTERNATIONAL DETAILING ASSOCIATION

Asa long time member of the detail industry we would like to have you as a member of the INTERNATIONAL DETAILING ASSOCIATION. Please go to www.the-ida.com and check out the association. Dues are only $50 a year for operators and you will gain much more than that in value. Questions about IDA to go info@the-ida.com

Regards
Bud Abraham

Sounds Like Buffer Bill is back



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2009 04:22PM by Custom Detail.

Dear Bud

If you are paying $45.00 a quart than I agree with you that is a lot.The
source I buy mine from sells me a gallon for that price.I recently did a full
size Lexus and only used 4 ozs total. That appears to be cheaper than wax.

Look, I am sorry if I appear a bit zealous about wax, and I know that this
makes other members here on the forum upset.Although,I see vehicles that if
a acrylic sealant would have been applied when the clearcoat was new that buffing
would not be needed.I am not writing this info to insult anyone,but to inform
detailers that there is a better product that will increase your business.

I have a degree in business with a major in marketing, and many years of experience using acrylic sealants.My customers call me because they see that
what I use keeps their paint protected and looking new.You can do repairs,but when the clearcoat is shot, so is the value of the car.It is a fact,that people
are trying to get every mile they can out of their vehicle,so why put something
on it that will speed up the process in these hard times.

Look guys,no hard feelings on my part and good luck to you all.

Bill

If you are paying $45 a gallon that is still too much. You should be able to purchase a gallon of the best sealant for no more than $22 or 23 a gallon.

As indicated I agree that sealants are a better product in terms of ease of application and removal and they do last longer than waxes.

However, to say that if a car had been treated with sealant vs wax it would not have to buffed is stretching it.

You have to buff a car because it gets scratched, water spotted, etched by insect residue, eggs or acid rain.

Since clear coats do not oxidize becausethe pigment is not exposed to the sun's uv rays you would not be buffing to remove oxidation.

Paint sealants will not protect against scratching or water spotting but might protect a bit longer against insect residue, eggs, acid rain.

Still they are not a wonder product in any way, shape or form.

My major reason for only selling paint sealant and not wax is that we price not much higher for a sealant than a wax and, as I stated, it is easier to apply and remove and it does offer more durability.

Other than that there is not much reason to use one over the other.

That is how the detail business is, everyone has an opinion some opinions are based on fact and some on simply what a detailer thinks, but he thinks he is correct so I guess that is all that matters.

Who am I to tell them they are wrong?

Bud Abraham

Bud

I am confused,you state that companies are charging up to $ 45.00 a quart,
and then you state that you can buy the best sealant for no more than $22.
to $23 a gallon all day long.Then why would cost be a factor when you state
a sealant is a better product?$18.00 for a gallon of wax is not that much
different in price.

Bud,you have not read what I have said clearly, so I will try one more time.
ALL waxes will melt at 90 degrees or less,and they do not bond to the surface,
they stick to the surface.When dirt,grime,salt,acid rain,bugs,or well water
sit on the surface for a long time they harden and create a film which washing
will not remove.Many car soaps contain wax which adds to the problem.When you
buff the residue off you take the clear off,and it will not remove all the sca
tches either.After several buffings, the clear will thin and loose it's
clarity and shine.


I would suggest looking at this web site (Logisticlean.com) before you make
opinions about what you know about acrylic sealants.I did two aircraft with
the owner in Texas, and he spent a great deal of money testing and working
with NASA to show what a sealant can do.To say a sealant is not much different
than wax is wrong.This sealant does prevent damage that leads to buffing,
but he is reselling it for a insane price.

Quote
buda
Bill

If you are paying $45 a gallon that is still too much. You should be able to purchase a gallon of the best sealant for no more than $22 or 23 a gallon.
for polymer stuff maybe. not for what we use which is not polymer, silicone or teflon

As indicated I agree that sealants are a better product in terms of ease of application and removal and they do last longer than waxes.

However, to say that if a car had been treated with sealant vs wax it would not have to buffed is stretching it.

You have to buff a car because it gets scratched, water spotted, etched by insect residue, eggs or acid rain.
the sealants I use prevent water spotting and acid rain

Since clear coats do not oxidize becausethe pigment is not exposed to the sun's uv rays you would not be buffing to remove oxidation.
Clear coats do oxidise. its paint without pigment with some UV protection. its not as noticeable as single stage but oxidation does happen
fortunately it can be fixed without cutting the paint back


Paint sealants will not protect against scratching or water spotting but might protect a bit longer against insect residue, eggs, acid rain.
they do protect against spotting, acid rain and insect residue. Eggs though I highly doubt it

Still they are not a wonder product in any way, shape or form.
big difference between amino functional resins and the glass/titanium stuff I made up.

My major reason for only selling paint sealant and not wax is that we price not much higher for a sealant than a wax and, as I stated, it is easier to apply and remove and it does offer more durability.

Other than that there is not much reason to use one over the other.
our sealants thicken the paint up and bury orange peel. wax cannot do this

That is how the detail business is, everyone has an opinion some opinions are based on fact and some on simply what a detailer thinks, but he thinks he is correct so I guess that is all that matters.

Thus why its in such a mess. Too many hackers, no regulation. old school thinkers and methods.

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Default Mediocre Polishing
So, after spending many hours polishing my wife's car using a PC (Meg 105 with Uber yellow pad, Menzerna IP with Uber green and PO85RD with Uber Blue), I had mediocre results. My wife's car is black and although it is 2006 it already has 140K miles on it and the paint if full of scratches and chips. Now I know the paint chips can't be repaired, but I was hoping for the scratches to go. Unfortunately, they didn't.

Now 3 weeks later (I have applied BFWD and BF Midnight carnuba wax after polishing), I look at it and I find it full of swirl marks.

How can I get better results from polishing? Since I am using a PC, should I get the Surbuf MicroFingers R Series Buffing Pads that Phil started selling and try again or should I just buy a Makita and risk burning the paint as I have never used a rotary polisher before?

I am at a loss, all the hard work and I got crappy results.

All feedback is appreciated.




Paint sealants will not protect against scratching or water spotting but might protect a bit longer against insect residue, eggs, acid rain.
they do protect against spotting, acid rain and insect residue. Eggs though I highly doubt it


Svr you are right about scratches, but on the rest I totally disagree. I know
AT-5 will protect because of my years using the product. You and others may doubt
it, but I really do not care. I guess 17 years of experience with the product
means nothing.<br>

What makes me different from other detailers is I try to protect my customers
paint from damage.I feel if I use AT-5 it will prevent most damage from the sun,
bugs,tree sap, water spots (well water),road grime, and salt. This eliminates
the need for hours of correction to restore the damage that can be fixed.<br>


Most detailers just refuse to see that wax provides no protection, and are only
concerned with what the car looks like when it is delivered. I put the above post
in to try and show that correction will not fix most damage, and in most cases
it just leaves swirl marks.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/03/2010 10:31PM by billd55.

If anyone cares, here are the pics of the car


[www.detailingbliss.com]



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 10/03/2010 10:53PM by billd55.

I don't think anyone cares Bill

Marnie

I understand why you feel that way. The people who make waxes support your IDA
site. You have to support the party line, or loose business.

When you cannot disprove anything I say, insults are the only thing left.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/03/2010 11:58PM by billd55.

Bill

What is wrong with you?

Don't you realize that every legitimate detail chemical company offers a paint sealant very similiar to AT5 as part of their chemical line.

You think that AT5 is the only paint sealant offered in the industry?

You have no idea what you are talking about when you use the word acrylic, it is a "buzz" word to describe the polymers that every manufacturer that makes a paint sealant uses.

M

Bill, you have never used a rotary machine? I have had little luck getting scratches out with any dual action however, my dewalt does a great job. Im not telling you to run out and buy a rotary but before you give up on the car maybe ya outta try one out with some decent compound. I dont even use great compound, I currently am using Meguires Ultimate Compound, which is very mild and a medium grade pad on my Dewalt 849 and believe it or not, alot of scratches come out with this combination where the dual action has failed me. Once I get a car corrected with this combination either wax or sealant looks great. Sealant is easier to apply, slightly, but the wax/glaze looks so much deeper on a dark car. As far as burning your paint, I would think that a professional with your background would have no trouble learning and using the rotary, you may even come to like it better than the porter cable, I do.

Bob
I have a high speed wheel. In fact, I have had many through the years.
I am very familiar with correction. See Bob, what you and many other detailers
fail to understand is that wax/glaze covers up swirl marks.When you deliver your car it may look wonderful, but after the first wash when the wax starts to wear off you get the swirls back.<br>

This is exactly what happened in the above post.For you info, this post came from another detailing forum. I am not the owner of this car<br>

I agree some scratches will come out, but most will not. IMO using a compound
will only mare the clear coat, and may cause the swirls to be permanent.<br>

"Don't you realize that every legitimate detail chemical company offers a paint sealant very similiar to AT5 as part of their chemical line."

"You think that AT5 is the only paint sealant offered in the industry? "


Bob, you should really spend some time reading my old posts with Bud.
Acrylic is a buzz word. Most so-called sealants are nothing more than
wax with a polymer added. Basically, they can withstand a few more washes
before they breakdown.<br>


These sealants do offer some protection through cross linking, but they do not
truly bond or seal to the clear. AT-5 is nothing like poly sealants.<br>

AT-5 has been around long before the term paint sealant became popular.
Like you in the early 90's I thought it was marketing bull to. Although, I know
better now. <br>

Bob what is wrong with you is that need to stop listening to what others tell
you, and find out for your self. Detailing IMO is more than just making a car look good for a couple of weeks until it is sold, or until the customer picks it up.

Clearly, most detailers treat swirl marks like UFO's. They exist, but they have no idea what causes them or how to prevent them. Several people here wonder why
detailers are considered in bad terms.Well here might be one reason.<br>

See professionals fix problems,not hide them. If you had a leak in your plumbing
and a plumber fixed it, but three weeks later it started leaking again. Would
you except that? I think not. <br>

So lets take the example with the lady that got tree sap on her H2 from the dealer parking it under a tree.
You state:
I speak from nearly 20 years of experience behind the counter. Trust me, there is no one that wants you to be happier with the dealership than the service department!

Well I guess your experience does not mean much because this is what happened:
Tonight I pick up my car (after hours) and what do I see?? the same white marks!! After it got detailed!! HRRRGGGGggg!!!! So really I want to know what to ask for specifically so I can tell them what I want... Yes I will bring donuts if that will get this crap off my car... I hear ya about customers I have works in customer service too but now I see why some people blow there top!! I am just frustrated ;(

Well Bob the lady asked you a question.The dealership caused the problem. Did not solve the problem, and now the lady has to pay someone else to fix the problem. Would you consider these guys professionals?I sure do not.Does anyone care, or wonder why the industry has such a bad image?

Let's ask the spokeswoman for the IDA for her opinion

Re: It's the same old story with the same answers
Posted by: marnie (IP Logged)
Date: October 03, 2010 06:59PM

I don't think anyone cares Bill

I guess that sums it up



Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2010 03:03PM by billd55.

Bill, my mistake, I must have misread your post about not having used a rotary machine, for that I appologise. Bill, what you fail to understand is that most of us are not covering up a bunch of scratches and swirls with glaze and wax, we are glazing and waxing AFTER the scratches and swirls are removed with the appropriate compounds used for that purpose. I absolutely agree that on a nearly flawless clear coat that sealant is the best way to go however, sometimes it is not feasable in all cases. If my customer insists on wax then Im gonna give em wax regardless of my oppinions, its their money. Bill, I have read all of your old posts with Bud until I have become crosseyed and suicidal from the redundancy and idiocy therin. Bill what is wrong with you is that you refuse to accept the views of other people in the business, look AT-5 is like a penis, if you love it thats cool with me man but stop trying to shove it up may ass. Clearly you treat common sense thoughts as a U.F.O.- they exist but you have no damn clue as to what to do with them. See professionals fix problems, I am presented with a specific set of wishes from my customer for the vehicle and deliver the vihicle as per those wishes, for that I am paid an agreed upon amount of money. If the customer requests more services then I will be happy to oblige them. If you went to Wallmart and asked for a white pair of socks and the clerk insisted that you buy red ones, would you accept that? I think not. So now lets take the lady with the H2 for example. Neither you or I know all of the circumstances surrounding her post so why debate something we are not educated about? Maybe she is unpleasable, maybe she is just going out of her way to be difficult because she is frustrated with them for other reasons, again we dont know. Its between them. lets leave it there. Finally lets talk of experience, how bout we ask Don Johnson about how he feels when you crawl into his Ferarri with a garden hose and a shop vac? Now you wonder why the industry has such a bad image? Lets ask Gina, "You have the mind of a 4 year old, and I bet he was glad to be rid of it!" Well Bill, I guess that about sums it up.

Let me jump in again to clarify what you seem to continously miss Bill because it does not agree with your major premise:

A compound and/or a cutting pad used with a rotary buffer "WILL or CAN" put swirls in the paint when used to correct a problem.

The key to reducing the amount of swirling is:

a. Using the tool at the correct RPM
b. Using with the correct technique
c. Using the correct cutting pad for the paint finish and the problem.
(1) 100% cutting pad (not recommended for most clear coat finishes)
(2) 50%/50% poly wool blend cutting pad
(3) Foam cutting pad

If a detailer uses too aggressive a pad for the level of correction that
is needed they will cause "scratches" not swirls

d. Using the correct grit level of compound to make the correction:
(1) 800 grit - Heavy
(2)1200 grit - Medium
(3)2000 grit - Light
(4)Fine grit - Microfine

Most problems in most clears require no more than a light or microfine, at
best a 1200.

Again you use too aggressive a compound and you will leave scratches in the
form of swirls.

NOW, the key is that detailers who have been trained to do dealer cars or who get paid by the car, typically jump from the compounding/cutting step to the waxing or paint sealant step and "buff" the wax on to fill the scratches.

They skip the swirl removing step.

For this you would use a:

a. Rotary buffer at a slower speed
b. Foam polishing pad
c. Swirl remover, not filler

NOTE: This will not work, however, if the detailer has used too aggressive a pad and/or too aggressive a compound because what they have done is create, as I stated earlier, scratches in the form of swirls in the paint.

These can only be taken out with a less aggressive cutting pad and a less aggressive compound.

A swirl remover will not remove scratches.

So the mistake is not intrinsic to a buffer, a cutting pad or a compound, it is completely based on human error. And then after making the error not realizing what they have done and knowing how to correct the error.

Now Bill old boy, if you want to use a paint sealant instead of a wax to protect the finish when you have corrected a problem; removed the swirls no problem.

Personally I always use our DIAMOND Shine PLUS which is one of the best paint sealants on the market for the price, only $23.95.

Regards

Bob

First, I am not trying to cram AT-5 down your throat. I was responding to what
svr 73 said in his comment about my post. You jumped in to throw your two cents
in on the subject.As I remember correctly, you asked me on where I get AT-5.<br>


I have no problem with other people's opinion,but everyone here has a problem
with mine.I really get sick of everyone here constantly trying to jam their opinion down my throat. <br>

Here is a perfect example:
What is wrong with you?

Don't you realize that every legitimate detail chemical company offers a paint sealant very similiar to AT5 as part of their chemical line.

You think that AT5 is the only paint sealant offered in the industry?

You have no idea what you are talking about when you use the word acrylic, it is a "buzz" word to describe the polymers that every manufacturer that makes a paint sealant uses.

I have been very patient trying to explain why I feel the way I do about wax and
correction. I realize many do not agree with what I say,but the insults have not
come from me. <br>


You mention Don Johnson, and that is funny you bring him up. The guys that trained
me on how to use acrylic sealants did all the Miami Vice cars and the boat. <br>


Bob, it may surprise you that extraction machines have not always been used to
clean carpets and fabric. You have this idea that I take a garden hose and just flood the car with water. Well I do not. If the carpet is clean, then I use a little water and a cleaning solution. <br>


When carpets and seats are really dirty then I feel an extraction machine
does not apply enough water to loosen the stains and dirt. Suction alone
will not remove it.<br>

I travel to people's homes, and I do not want to carry a bulky machine around.
The wet vac I use is the strongest sears makes. <br>

Bill, Im sure you are a concientious detailer and I am equally sure you are sincere in your efforts. What you fail to realize is that at times you have a sharp tounge and some of your comments here are offensive to others, even though you may not mean for them to be. We have all done the shopvac thing man, and yes at times the extractor is not aggressive enough for really really dirty carpets, however most times it is. Therin lies most of your woes. You are passionate for what you do and how you do it, so are others. Your ways are not always the 'correct' way to get it done as mine are not always correct. Lets not beat each other up over procedure if the end result is the same.

Fair enough

I've just joined the forum and there are so many topics I'd like to chim in on. So much information here! In fact, I've spent nearly 5 hours today reading various posts here. Anyway, as far as the topic at hand is concerned, I'll have to say I typically use both sealants and waxes. Why? Well, it's been proven that under normal circumstances, sealants do provide better overall protection, but lacks giving the finish a deep gloss/wet look. So, if the clients wants just protection, I apply a quality sealant, but if the clients wants protection AND that deep gloss/wet look, I up sell the wax application in order to give them what they want. They're happy and so am I...

AT-5 will give you both at a cost that is very affordable.

Maybe I'll have to give it a try next purchase. It will be put on my list. I try to be very picky when it comes to purchasing products because if you got out and buy every recomendation you'll end up with a full garage and an empty wallet...

I have used it since 1993, and it is the only product I will use.

Bill,
You may have mentioned it in previouse posts, but as a newbie to the this forum, I haven't ran across it yet as to where I can purchase the AT-5. Can you put out a link?

Thank you!

Midnight

Here is the link:[gem-industries.com]


If you want to order a gallon call: 1-800-6DETAIL and ask for Rich.
Tell them Bill Daley from Naples,fl sent you. A gallon should cost you around
$40.00 plus shipping, but will will do 40 plus vehicles with it. I would
suggest the high flash AT-5 because it drys slower and is easier to work
with for someone who has not used it before.

They also sell a pre treatment ( $20.00/ gallon) which is awesome for restoring
shine. It does not contain a grit like compound,but diatomaceous earth.

This products should be used as the first step in a professional detailing application. As a pre-cleaner, this product is easy to apply. It will remove light oxidation, rain spots, and road dirt. Also helps restore color.

If you have anymore questions, let me know.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2010 03:52PM by billd55.

Thanks for the info Bill, Greatly appreciated.

I will probably use it on my basic details, but continue with the process I use for my higher end ones.

Thanks again for the info! Have a great day!

You said your customers want shine, but also protection. With AT-5 they get
both. I can promise you this. You will get great tips, and many new and existing
clients that come back with this product.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2010 04:03PM by billd55.

Bill, you can promise? What can you promise? Are you the manufacturer of this sealant?

How come they do not come on the forum and support your effort. Sounds fishy to me.

New clients are always good. I look forward to receiving it soon. I checked out the site you posted and noticed they don't show any pricing or product usage information. Maybe I just haven't dug into it enough yet???

midnight

Call the toll free number and they will give you the info.They are nice people.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2010 06:41PM by billd55.