Are expensive waxes better than cheaper ones?

I found this article on the web,and thought it would save you money when looking
for a car wax.[www.carwaxreviews.net]

Bill

Thanks for the article. You have seen my post on the other question you posted about waxes being obselete.

Chemical companies have always been the master's of marketing and the internet companies selling "boutique" car care products especially compounds, polishes, waxes and sealants are masters.

Even a professional detailer who should know better gets sucked into the hype and believes some of the marketing crap that is on these sites.

Look, chemicals are all about chemistry, basic chemistry. No one chemical company has anymore chemistry than another other than some larger companies can afford to pay for better chemists and can afford to do more R&D. But then the smaller companies wait for the larger companies to come up with something and then they copy it. Many do that with the giant, 3M.

As for wax, there is only so much technology you can put in a can of wax. I am being asked by an overseas customer to purchase for him,from an on-line site a can of paste wax that sells for $49 a can. The same can you can buy from a legitimate detail chemical company for $9.95. I refused and told him I would get 5 or 6 samples of paste wax from my friends in the industry and let him choose which is best.

No carnuaba wax is 100% carnuaba wax. That is a good example of marketing hype,

"Contains 100% carnuaba wax...."


What do most people think? Of course, that the product contains 100% carnuaba wax.

But the real meaning is that the product contains a carnuaba wax that is 100% carnuaba wax.

The most wax you can put in a can of wax is 15% wax. More than that and you could not use the product, it would be too oily to effectively use on a car.

So the key for a detailer is to know what percentage by volume of wax is in the product, be it a can or a quart or a gallon.

And, by the way, synthetic carnuaba (micro-crystilline waxes) are more durable than natural carnuaba.

However, you will be hard pressed to find a detail chemical distributor that knows that much about the product.

Just some well intentioned thoughts.

Bud Abraham

Some good info on that site but my test results differ with theirs in some cases.

I found #26 had poor durability as did Gold Class.

I found FX did not shine as well as its sister product, California Gold.

My answer is that expensive products like Malms, Griot's and Zaino are superior to cheaper products...and I've tried a lot of them.

I'm not clear on what "Better" means.... If you mean the deep gloss it give to a well polished finish, that's one thing. But if your talking about how long it lasts, well that's another. I try to use the wax, following a sealant, that gives the deepest gloss. That is what the clients sees and cares most about. Besides, waxes typically melt down at around 85 - 90 degrees and doesn't really stay on the car for maybe 3 months or so, if your lucky.

Midnight 1700

I put this post up a long time ago. I was trying to show that wax is wax,
and price really has no bearing on quality.

I agree with what you said about wax melting around 85-90 degrees and how long it lasts.AT-5 is a sealant that I use made by Gem Industries that will last protect
one year, and will shine equal to any wax.

Hey Midnight

Don't get Bill started about waxes vs sealants. He will tell you why waxes scratch the finish of the car.

And that you saturate carpets with water and do not use an extractor to clean them all you need is a $50 shop vacuum

Please

OK, I won't get started on the "WAX" topic. But to be fair, I don't use an extractor to clean carpets and seats either. Steamer works great!

If I can jump in here as an advocate of both the use of vapor steamers and soil extractors I would ask you how you get ground in dirt, oil, grease out of the carpets? Steam might melt some of it, and you can wipe some off with the pad you put over the steamer head, but without a soil extractor to evacuate this soil it remains in the fibers and will wick to the top when dry or at the least dry on the fibers and exacerbate resoiling.

You really must have both technologies to truly clean all carpets

Expertdetailer

First,when did I ever say wax scratches the finish. What I did say was washing
with a strong soap leads to fine scratches.


Also,I suggested soaking the carpet for dirty carpets only, and I never said not to use extractor either. I feel spending thousands for extractor is not worth the
money IMO.

Please stop telling people what I said, and mind your own business.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2010 03:30AM by billd55.

Bud is right on the money steamers only can do so much you need both......
Expert say what you want this is a open forum

Quote
buda
Bill

Thanks for the article. You have seen my post on the other question you posted about waxes being obselete.

Chemical companies have always been the master's of marketing and the internet companies selling "boutique" car care products especially compounds, polishes, waxes and sealants are masters.

Even a professional detailer who should know better gets sucked into the hype and believes some of the marketing crap that is on these sites.

Look, chemicals are all about chemistry, basic chemistry. No one chemical company has anymore chemistry than another other than some larger companies can afford to pay for better chemists and can afford to do more R&D. But then the smaller companies wait for the larger companies to come up with something and then they copy it. Many do that with the giant, 3M.

As for wax, there is only so much technology you can put in a can of wax. I am being asked by an overseas customer to purchase for him,from an on-line site a can of paste wax that sells for $49 a can. The same can you can buy from a legitimate detail chemical company for $9.95. I refused and told him I would get 5 or 6 samples of paste wax from my friends in the industry and let him choose which is best.

No carnuaba wax is 100% carnuaba wax. That is a good example of marketing hype,

"Contains 100% carnuaba wax...."


What do most people think? Of course, that the product contains 100% carnuaba wax.

But the real meaning is that the product contains a carnuaba wax that is 100% carnuaba wax.

The most wax you can put in a can of wax is 15% wax. More than that and you could not use the product, it would be too oily to effectively use on a car.

So the key for a detailer is to know what percentage by volume of wax is in the product, be it a can or a quart or a gallon.

And, by the way, synthetic carnuaba (micro-crystilline waxes) are more durable than natural carnuaba.

However, you will be hard pressed to find a detail chemical distributor that knows that much about the product.

Just some well intentioned thoughts.

Bud Abraham

Your pretty much true there.
However 3M are not leaders. they are way behind when it comes to polishes and detailing products in total.

I've tested shitloads of brands and what amazes me is that how come nobody has ever been able to copy and sell the GLARE line of products which is my second favourite since I made my own unique systems

No other system can do what it does.

Swissvax and most of these boutique products are just wank factor and marketing BS
However so many of the bulk industrial brands and their products (you know the big american companies) make absolute rubbish and I'll never buy anyones products again

No one wants to make revolutionary products because they are too busy making money selling the same old bullshit. pads, towels, wax, cleaners, polish etc

So far I've tested 100 brands and 98% of them are crap

Bill I am not going to waste my time reading through all your many posts, but you have said numerous times that "wax scratches the paint" because if attracts dust and this causes the paint to scratch. What a bunchh of ignorant BS.

OH, so if you cannot afford a needed technology you don't need it?

Bill may I ask in true sincerity where you got your formal detail training and where do you get your on going training so you can keep up on the latest technologies in the business?

Hi expert,

Being farely new here to the forum I know I haven't read all the posts to this subject but, the whole topic got me thinking a bit. And, believe me, that's difficult to do without a few asprin to help with the pain :-)

I'm wondering if what Bill is saying does have some merit? I'd have to do some experimenting to verify, but it's worth thinking about. The first thing that comes to my mind is, if you were to take a candle and heat it up to a point where it's not liquid, but yet soft, then sprinkle small particles of dust/dirt on it, let it harden again and then try to wipe it off with a cloth. What would happen? I would have to believe some of the particles would be "trapped" in the wax and would require additional effort/force with the rag to remove it. Causing the particles to go a little deeper into the wax. Wouldn't this basically be the same scenerio as if the wax was on the surface of a car?

This would make for a good experiment to see what happens. When I get a chance, I'll see about trying it out on a freshly polished painted surface. This topic has me curious?????

Listen idot. You admit you have not read my posts, but you say I have made statements that wax scratches the paint because it attracts dust and causes the
the paint to scratch.You are right, but I have NEVER said that!

What I have said all along is that wax traps things into it that cause dulling.
The dust, bugs, road grime, tree sap, well water, and million other things
contribute to dulling, but in no way cause any scratching,


What causes the swirl marks and scratches is the harsh washing and elements that causes wax to breakdown. Once again, get your facts right or shut up, please!


It really surprises me how big some peoples egos are,but I guess someone who goes by expertdetailer knows everything.Look, just because something is expensive does not mean it is better. I do not see the reason to spend 2 to 3 thousand
on a glorified bulky wet vac that heats water.

In true sincerity, where did you get your formal training. If you are using wax
then I do not consider that the lastest technology, do you? Last time I checked,
it has been around for many years, and nothing is new about it that I have seen.


I am here to bring attention to a sealant that has the shine of wax, and one year
of protection. Many have never heard of this product, but you and many here
act as if I am wasting your time, so I ask you this: do you really care about the
lastest technologies, or is that BS.


You have posted nothing here but rude comments, and your opinions that have NO
merit to detailing.You appear out of no where making statements about me and what
I have said.Once again I ask what makes you a expert. Dazzle us with your vast
knowledge and experience.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2010 04:08PM by billd55.

Dear Bill

Please excuse me for any harsh and rude statements that were made about your character, totally not meant to be that way. (lol)

Do not avoid my question: "have you ever had any formal training in the fine art of auto detailing?" Where do you gain your ongoing training to keep up on new technnologies or as you say, you keep doing the same thing you have always done, like from 1993 and not using an extractor. That is 1940"s detailing, splash on some soapy water and scrub and use a shop vacuum.

Hummmmm

Let my ask you this question. What do you consider the fine art of detailing is?
When I started detailing there was no internet or no formal training.

I had to learn my skills by trial and error. For example, no one taught me how to
detail yachts, but I have done hundreds of them. Once I learned what my clients
wanted, I did it faster and better than other detailers.The way the experts
tell you to do yachts are ass backwards.Using compound to restore shine, wax followed by boat soap with wax for washing only leads to dulling and gel coat
damage if it is in salt water.

I really wish you would learn how to read. I have used extractors and I said
they are ok, but what do they do. They heat water, that spray a solution,
and suck it out. I can spray my chemicals on with a spray bottle, apply the
amount of water I need by myself, and extract the solution out with a wet vac.

Since I do alot of mobile detailing. I really do not want to carry around a bulky
machine that I have to store and maintain.I keep my costs down so I can charge
a price that makes me money and gives value to my clients.


I am on forums all the time,and so far I have seen nothing that is new as far as I'm concerned.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2010 06:32PM by billd55.

Bill makes a good point... A lot of trainers and so called experts are out there... Many make the point of asking do you have any formal training...?

The questions I ask is what makes them an expert? Where have they had training? or rather when is the last time any of them has ever attended continued education in any area of this industry...? What body of authority is credentializing them? What akes them and expert? I bet most can't tell you... Some do not even detail or if they do it is once, some only detail once in awhile some only detail luxury vehicles in great shape.. some teach theory but have relatively little day to day experience out there doing thousands of vehicles per year facing thousands of different problems and speaking to thousands of customers...

It does not mean I do not respect their opinion... but it also means that perhaps they do not know as much as we give them credit for.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2010 08:09PM by concoursgarage.

Well said Gina !!

Gina

We may disagree on certain things,but not with that statement. Well
said!

I continue to agree with bill.
Wax is old school and has no place in my shop

Why put wax on a finish whether boat or car, truck etc when all it does it sit on the surface, absorb water and allow stuff to stick to it
All of them have a low melting point too

Put something on the finish that becomes part of the finish and then adds microns of some kind of hard protection :ie - glass and that magnifies the lustre by thickening it up with this glass.

This is what both glare and my system does. though mine has other ingredients that glare does not and is twice as thick as theirs

Svr

You are right on target. If Glare or your products do what you say, then that's fine with me if they protect and produce an awesome shine.

Clearly, that is what we all want, and will pay for if it is affordable.
Many people sell their vehicles because they look bad. If you show them a way
to maintain that new look , they are hooked.

It has worked for me, and know one else is marketing this concept I know about.

SVR, have you tried the Automotive products from [www.restructuremarine.com]

From what I hear their chemists have a very good pedigree, coming originally from a company that you like and use a lot.

Not used them, the labels certainly dont look professional
Sounds like a cop out of Glare

Glare though if they dont get their ass in gear and make something with scratch resistance (beyond that of Zero), will get left behind
Scratch resistance will be a key element in the products of the next five years

Have none and you wont get anywhere as a company

The Glare range has some products that I hate with a passion
Spider, Rapid Action and their liquid clay.

AFAIK they are ex-Glare chemists. I use it - its really good. Especially if you apply with PC and soft pad. But if you're happy with what you have, no worries. : )

How does Zero fit in with your polishing process, SVR. Is it any good on German paint? BMW's are ridiculous with orange peel these days. If you use Zero as a pre-cursor to Menzerna, for example, does it make a huge difference... or any difference at all?

Hey Profile

I might just give these resurface products a whirl. It cant hurt
Zero I use before and after sanding and prior to machine corrective polishing and afterwards.

Also use it in many different ways and reasons that I won't share at this time
However I am currently six weeks away from developing my own system which will be superior to zero and have more uses

Zero is great on anything and yes it will make paint twice as responsive to corrective polishing
the product though is not as good as it should be and is not the be all and end all of my paint decontamination and treatment processes

SVR.... Master of mystery!! ; )

Pity you are in Australia - I would have tried your new system! I might get a bottle of Zero in the meantime.

If you ever feel like sharing your other uses of Zero, send me a message! : )

sure mate. Actually my current name according to my part time employer is "Detailer to the stars"

Hey its a global market today and once all is protected, I'm happy to get you on board as a user of some of our systems

The current deep impact line has a few revolutionary products but what we want to do in two years or less time is blow the world away with some even better one of a kind products.

Sounds like you're on to something good. Really glad to hear it.

In the meantime I have Zero ordered as it sounds interesting as a pre-cursor to polishing. Can I drop you a PM when I receive it as you have a lot of experience using it? I work mainly on German cars - BMW really - so if it makes the hard paint easier to polish, great!

Detailer to the stars? Have you buffed Kylie?

Hey SVR, having problems getting Zero from Glare Europe. Costs a fortune from Glare US!

I did get Micro Finish, Spider and Polish so will try those with the Rotary on Monday or Tuesday. Any tips for using them?

Pity about Zero. Is it as expensive in Australia? Did I read somewhere that your version is different to the US product?