Just a question

It amazes me how Doug can answer a question about acrylic sealants when he admits
he never has used one.It is like me trying to tell you all that I can fly the space shuttle, but I do not know how to fly.I am wondering how Duragloss swirl remover can be considered an acrylic sealant.<br>

Here is a fact: the shine part of the clear coat is the exposed part on top. When
Doug makes a comment that you can polish it frequently, and it will not effect the
clarity of the shine really makes me question his experience level.<br>

I am not saying Zaino is a bad product. It is much better than all waxes, and
most sealants.It may offer some protection, but it is not acrylic sealant.Why,
because if you have to use correction at all, and wash it with a weak washing
solution then it is the best of average products IMO.<br>

Larry A, I am upset because no one is willing to try the product.If someone tried
the product and said it was not that great,well, I could understand that.Although,
all I hear is excuses , and not reasons. I show you where you can buy the product
for a fair price(less than $20,00 for two cars), and has one person bought it
and proved me wrong? No. If autoglym wax is on sale at Walmart for under $40.00,
it is like fire on the forums.<br>

I am not trying to insult anyone here,but this is not a hobby for me.I am not
a closet detailer who details his and his friends cars, or president of a detailing association. I do this for a living, and it really makes me mad when
I have to compete with hacks that go around that do crap work.<br>

Ketch,I do not mean to be rude, but working for a company that makes detailing
products does not make you a detailer. You may know what is in the products,
but that is not experience in IMO.I go out and sell this product everyday
because I know what it does in every application.I can tell you that I know
more about AT-5 than the chemist who made it because my experience with it.<br>

I ask this question: who should be considered a detailer? IMO, someone who knows
all aspects of detailing. A person who wants to provide a quality service to his
customers.I could use any product I want to put on a vehicle, but if I know a
way to save the cost of expensive correction to prevent swirl marks, provide
a awesome shine, and true protection that is not expensive. I use it.<br>

The customer comes to you for advice on how to maintain the appearance of their
vehicle.I do not waste their time asking them if they want wax or a paint sealant.
Because I know what they want, and that is shine and protection, not swirl
marks ,and a temporary shine.<br>


If you all want to put your head in the sand,and continue to teach correction
and try every new wax thinking it is any different from the last one, well,
than that is you choice. Although,IMO you will acquire more loyal customers
who will appreciate you taking them away from that alternative.I realize this
will not happen when I see a post right after mine that says "what type of wash/
wax service should I get".This is a perfect question for Doug and Bud.<br>

I am 66 years old, I had a "detailing" business(wasn't called that then) since 1958.
I was an accomplished body and paint professional while in my 20's and 30's, while still working at my sales marketing career, did it on the side.
Was National Sales Manager and Tech Director for Finish Kare from 1987 thru 1995, before joining Automotive International as Director of Sales and Technical Services.
During that time I maintained my own lab plus worked with our three degreed chemists at the production plant.
I took a little detailing class the company had to a world class training school, attended by field engineers, Vice Presidents, etc of all three of the USA"s largest car companies,plus 8 of the larger import automanufacturers.
The school trained over 3,000 students at the facility, plus I took the school on the "road" to 16 countries around the world.
Numerous vehicle manufacturers have paid to have me go around the world to aid them in resolving paint, trim, interior cosmetic concerns.
My passport has an addeum, it has been used for these work trips.
While I am officially retired since Sept of 2008, I continue to do consulting work for A.I., plus consult with 4 vehicle manufacturers regarding paint, trim, interior and other cosmetic concerns.
I would have to take a wild guess at the number of vehicles I have detailed, worked on, corrected other's mistakes, but would guess around 200,000 vehicle at the least.

These are my documented creditionals, are they enough for you.
Ketch

Ketch since you still consult with AI are they ever get a new ontario distributor been waiting a long time... since the time you retired i think lol

I really don't know.
They do have one in Quebec, or they did at the start of the year.

The company is focused on it's OEM business, warranty product sales, as well as "private label" customers.

The detail side is not a large part of their overall business plan since I left, however, they have a new fellow who came out of AutoMagic who as I understand is working to increase the number of North American distributors.

Sorry, but since the consulting I do with them is OEM focused I am not in the loop on what they are doing on other areas.
Ketch

Thx for the info, having OT withdrawl. ;-)

Give them a call, ask for Tim, tell him what you have to say.
He'll find a way to hook you up.

Bill :

Duragloss Swirl Mark Remover is in fact an acrylic sealant. So...I have used an acrylic.
And I'm betting Zaino is superior to the stuff you are hawking ( AT-5 supposedly genuine but re-bottled by some guy on Ebay ( with no connection to you, of course...). Zaino won the Guru Reports test for a reason. AT-5 is still something I've heard of from you only. Quit pooh-poohing your competition already.
I realize you don't like insulting people but thanks just the same for questioning my experience level.
Doug

Would either of you care to explain to all who are reading this thread the molecular difference of an acrylic and a polymer chain.

Are you discussing an amino-functional polymeric chain of structure?

What makes one superior to the other?

What is the difference?

Just a thought to bring this down to a level that most may be able to understand.

And, while you are at doing so, how do the various solvents, etc, affect the "chain", the time period required to bring the chains together, is the molecular chain catalized via an aerobic or non-aerobic cure, etc.

How do the selected solvents affect the catalization of the components?

Don't expect me to go beyond this, or even attempt on a forum to teach you basic chemistry of such products.

Ketch, you are the man!Now let me open my can of Simonize and get to work.LOL

Ketch, While im here typing , I might as well leave a comment. I think that your "Fast Finish" is great stuff. I wish that it was easier to get.

Doug you have questioned my experience every time I make a post.Please explain to me how a swirl remover can be an acrylic sealant.You said, you have never used an
acrylic sealant,but you are making comments about it to svc73.You are the one
bad mouthing a product you have never used. I said that Zaino is not a bad product,but it is not an acrylic.Why? If you have to use correction at all,then, IMO it is inferior. <br>

I have done hundreds of cars with AT-5, and reapplied the product after a year. I cannot think of one car that needed correction.Clearly, that is not the case with what I have read from your posts.Should I become a clone, and use what big companies sell for crazy prices ,and fall for fancy labeling and slick names.<br>


I have spent a lot of time writing these posts to try and inform people on this site how to be a better detailer. What I have tried to explain is that beading
is not protection.Waxes and most sealants provide only shine and beading.I have provided proof of this fact by showing what an chemical engineer with many years of experience said on the subject.If you consider that pooh-poohing the competition, well,then you have bought into the party line. <br>


You and Bud continue to bring up this issue about me having a connection with AT-5. Yeah so what, I use it and like it. You constantly mention Zaino, do you have a connection?Every post I make, you follow up with a comment that I am
wrong. I really do not appreciate that.<br>

Because this product is not sold to the public, and not well known does not mean
anything. Car dealers and professionals have used acrylic sealants for years.
[www.classycoupons.com]
[buffmasterscarwash.com]
Here are just two examples.<br>

Ketch your record is impressive.but you are part of the problem.You have trained
3,000 people how to use products that do nothing but create swirl marks.I have
no doubt that you are a expert in the products you sold, and to train people how to use them.<br>

I am a expert on how to avoid them.I worked with a company in Houston which
applied it on 2-737 800's in 2005. This product is now being used by American
Airlines. I have detailed hundreds of boats, cars, trucks, vans, and mini vans
with this product since 1993, so is that enough experience for you to know what I
am talking about.<br>


You think like a chemist, but not like a detailer.Big companies tell chemists
how to make the products.They do not want to make products that solve problems.
Instead, it is all about shine and beading.Swirl marks have been around for a long
time, and they do not seem to worried about. It makes alot of money.<br>

Now to answer your question: what is the difference.I will explain it the way
I would with my customers.An acrylic polymer bonds with an acrylic clear coat
which becomes part of the clear coat and seals the micro pores . It provides permanent protection from the sun and the elements when applied on a yearly
basis. <br>

Poly sealants provide temporary bonding, but do not permanantly adhere to the clear coat.In many cases they are added to wax to provide a barrier thru cross linking.The polymer additive makes it more resistant to harsh washing, the elements coming into contact with the clear, and UV protection.They do not have the shine of wax, so many apply wax over them. Once the wax breaks down,then here comes correction to remove them. True acrylic sealants have a shine equal to wax,so wax is not needed. <br>

#671 Most swirl marks are caused when residual dirt is wiped over a car's surface during washing and drying, from machine buffing, or from automatic car wash machines where swirling brushes make contact with the paint. Duragloss 671 Swirl Mark Remover is a blend of waxes, polymers and polishing agents, which easily removes light swirl marks from clear coated paint surfaces. One way to help avoid swirl marks is to use Duragloss plush microfiber 9001 wash mitt and 9002 drying towel also sold on this site. Doug, acrylic sealants do not contain wax!This is why I question your experience.

AT-5 sounds like eurochem toughseal. a great acrylic system
I prefer glare over anything on the market as it does what toughseal does but even more than that.

fills orange peel, reverses oxidation without needing compounds, enhances metal flake pop and increases colour shade depth and clarity like no other and protects very well. even thickens the paint

correction has its place but its not everything and I only do it a few times on a car before I stop and switch to glare, driven and or prima products

Grumpy :
To answer your questions about the actual chemistry of acrylics and polymers, well...um, uh ! Lemme think a second...

Okay. Ive got an answer !

Amino-functional silicones function by "aminos" . Aminos add cost so the more you pay for a product the more functional it is, I guess.

My degree is in flower arrangement, not chemistry. ( LOL)


Bill :
I have no connection to Zaino as I have already said repeatedly. You may have noticed that other products get fair treatment from me too.

" Fancy labeling " ???????? Jeepers, Zaino brags that they use simple labels and bottles so you are only paying for the best possible product !

If low price is key here, I guess I should just use Wash n' wax from the dollar store and leave it at that. ( LOL )

BTW, you made claims based on your experience, which makes that a legitimate area for questions.
If I was misinformed about the Duragloss product containing acrylic, I stand corrected ( I was told that by one of the owners of Duragloss ).

Scr73 I believe that AT-5 is made by eurochem.[www.eurochem.co.uk]. Not familiar with Glare,but I will take your word
for it.<br>

Scr73 is right about correction in these cases,but the use of correction is way out of control.New cars should be started with an acrylic sealant, and nothing else should be used IMO.Acrylics are the answer to all the problems. They seal and protect the clear from the sun and the elements, no special washing procedures are needed, they offer an awesome shine, and they are cost effective.<br>

Doug I appreciate you correcting yourself.I want to pass on my knowledge about
acrylic sealants to other detailers.Using this product would give a new detailer an advantage by using a superior product that is cost effective, and is easy to apply.Trust me, there are many people who would pay for this product if they are convinced of it's benefits. <br>

scr73

You brought up toughseal, and I believe it is the same product as AT-5.
I found a company in Sydney who uses it . I like their marketing approach.
Do you know these guys?

[www.paintcorrections.com]

Here is a link to Toughseal : [www.paintprotection.co.uk]

I once spoke to a pro detailer who used Toughseal. He said it lasted 6 months, not the " up to 15 years " mentioned by the maker.
The product contains PTFE, a generic name fot Teflon. Some sources say Teflon does not work the same way on cars as it does on pots and pans because it cannot be bonded to paint the same way it is to cookware.

I may get around to testing this stuff. I've read good things about Glare as well but the guy reviewing Glare estimated its durability at 5 months....

Doug

Bill: Which of the AT5 sealants do you use?

Gina

I use AT-5 that is sold by Gem Industries in Sunrise Florida. They buy the
product from Eurochem and resell it in the US.IMO it is the best acrylic sealant.

I have not used toughseal, but I am sure it is a good product. Although, AT-5 does needs to be reapplied every year, and toughseal every six month. Also,
you can use Dawn with AT-5.


Bill

Bill

Did the fellas at GEM also tell you that the reason their GEM orbital polisher is so heavy (16lbs + or -) is to help take out scratches?

Bud

That polisher is used for granite counter top polishing. They use the polisher
to remove scratches in the granite with fine sand paper. It is to bulky for me,but some guys use it with Gem's clear coat compound, or the pre treatment.

Quote
billd55
scr73

You brought up toughseal, and I believe it is the same product as AT-5.
I found a company in Sydney who uses it . I like their marketing approach.
Do you know these guys?

[www.paintcorrections.com]

dont know the guy who owns the business at all but have seen his videos on you tube
pretty good corrector

toughseal has only 8% teflon and dont believe that it helps with protection
teflons only benefit is super slickness. and slickness is not protection

I know the owner of toughseal australia quite well and do use their stage 1 pre cleaner which is amazing by itself or combined with one of glare's products

Quote
Doug Delmont
Here is a link to Toughseal : [www.paintprotection.co.uk]

I once spoke to a pro detailer who used Toughseal. He said it lasted 6 months, not the " up to 15 years " mentioned by the maker.
The product contains PTFE, a generic name fot Teflon. Some sources say Teflon does not work the same way on cars as it does on pots and pans because it cannot be bonded to paint the same way it is to cookware.

I may get around to testing this stuff. I've read good things about Glare as well but the guy reviewing Glare estimated its durability at 5 months....

Doug

there is the glare australian products and the american products
both are made in america but are totally different formula's
the aussie version is smoother, has 1% drying agent vs about 40% in the american and the quality of the aussie stuff is far higher. less product needed and three different finishing sealants, each thicker than the previous and these are only available in aus (my country)

so many users of the system apply it wrongly thus the poor durability
it will last a good year and a half before I strip it back with glare micro and re apply for a thick coat and allow to set for 24 hours

there are three ways to use it
use to reverse oxidation and flatten orange peel
use to fill in all defects for a long time
or use to thicken paint, enhance gloss and seal