a question for you chemists

Is there any difference in powder laundry soap versus powder carpet soap for carpet extractors?

Personally I am not a chemist but I can say this:

"Laundry detergents do generate more foam than extractor products. There are both powdered and liquid extractor products and it does not matter as they are formulated to dry to a powder to be vacuumed up. Many carpet cleaning chemicals are formulated to dry and then be vacuumed up.

Laundry detergents and extractor shampoos are formulated differently. The one being the generation of foam, laundry detergents generating more foam.

An extractor product has less time to the cleaning than a laundry detergent and must be formulated in a more concentrated form.

Additives in a laundry detergent are different, optical brighteners are used in laundry detergents and most often, not in an extractor product.

You can find color-safe bleaches in laundry products and not in extractor products.

Enzyme stain removers are found in laundry detergents and not in extractor shampoos.

Water softeners are found in the laundry detergent and not extractor products.

As you can see there is a tremendous difference between the two even though both are powders.

Why do you ask the question? Do you, or were you going to use laundry detergent in your extractor?

Regards



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/20/2010 02:08PM by buda.

Thanks Bud for the info, no I use a powdered carpet shampoo in my extractor, but sometimes I feel it does not perform as well as I would like, it also has no pleasing fragrance, wich would be nice at times. It is sold by Brody Chemicles. I doubt if I will continue using it as it is becoming too expensive, at ninety bucks for a 60 pound bucket. Just doing some research to keep overhead down. Unichem markets a powder that is much cheaper, but also performs no differently.

Bob

Tell me the process you are using to clean carpets. Step by step please.

Bud ABraham

Ok, First I fill my 12 gallon extractor with hot water that I have mixed two cups of powdered carpet shampoo. I let the machine heat up to full temperature (about 200 degrees) while I blow out under the seats with compressed air. Then I vacuum the entire carpet. I then go after stains with stain remover, stiff brush, rag ect.... By this time the extractor is usually full hot. I spray the carpet with enzyme everywhere, leave it dwell for a couple of minutes. Then I shampoo the carpet with the extractor, dragging the wand back while pressing the trigger. On very dirty carpets I dont release the trigger. After I have done the carpet this way, I scrub it with a stiff bristle brush and extract it again. Imagine my disappointment when a light gray carpet is still brown and dirty looking (especially on the footrest or deadpedal area). I then go over the carpet again with the extractor again without triggering solution to pull up any excess moisture. Finally I place four or five fans set on hi blow and leave the heat on 70 degrees in the shop. I can fit 5 cars at a time in the shop so I dont have to touch the car until the next morning when it is dry. I remove the fans the next morning and revacuum the carpets. Most times they are acceptable however, sometimes they are still dirty looking and feeling. Im not talking about browning up after dry, I can reshampoo those out again. Alot of times there is no amount of shampooing that will bring them clean, even after several shampoo sesssions and they feel clean, but are still discolored. These carpets I have to dye. I would like better results the first time around. I dont like using any degreaser on the carpets as I feel this makes them feel sticky to me the next day. Well, there ya have it, thats our carpet shampoo procedure. Any ideas?

That is a pretty good procedure. Let me share with you what we teach in our training course:

FACT: 85% of the soil in carpets is dry & 15% oily so you have to do two things:

1. Air blow and thorough vacuuming to remove "all" the dry soil
2. Next spot the stains with appropriate stain removers and remove stains as per
manufacturer's instructions. (we find a vapor steamer is great for this)
3. Pre-spray with a foaming carpet shampoo and let dwell to emulsify the oily
soil.
4. Use a rotary shampooer or brush to scrub the carpets allowing the foam to
lift the oily soil off the fibers.
5. Use the heated extractor to rinse clean the oily soil/shampoo residue
6. Go over the carpet again without opening the valve to remove excess moisture
7. Use air dryers if you choose.

In the extractor we use a 64 to 1 non-foaming extractor shampoo.

With this procedure you will clean most carpets in automobiles unless they are so bad they have to be removed and pressure washed to get out the caked in dirt or grease.

Regards
Bud Abraham

Putting carpet cleaner/shampoo in your extractor is old school! The most common practice now is to apply your cleaners/shampoos, stain removers, per-treats directly to the carpet.

All of Buds procedures are the same except the shampoo in the extractor, you will find that by rinsing the the cleaners/ shampoo out of the carpet with clean hot water in your extractor the carpet will be cleaner and stay cleaner longer.

I also believe it dries faster.

Custom

You are correct, but what you are not taking into account the difference between a foaming, low concentrate carpet shampoo. For example our carpet shampoo is a 7 to 1 dilution. And, the extraction shampoos which are 64 to 1, they are designed to "rinse clean" the carpet shampoo/oily soil residue.

These extractor shampoos are used universally by the professional carpet cleaning industry in their extractor systems.

Sure you can use water only, but you will not get a good a "cleaning"

Whatever works for you but I can only tell you what I learn from professionals who make a living cleaning carpets.

Bud Abraham

I also struggle with the question of shampoo/detergent in the machine because the carpet has so much pre spray and stain removers..and I just want to rinse the fibers but am reminded the 3 primary function of a detergent are:

1. Wetting: soap breaks the surface tension allowing the water to penetrate the fiber

2.Defloculation: This is the step that actually removes the soil from the surface. Much of the soil is held to the fiber surface by oils and sticky residues. The detergent emulsifies these residues causing the water to penetrate further releasing soil from fiber

3.Suspension: With the oil residue surrounded and the soil suspended in the water based cleaning we accomplish the purpose of releasing the soiling from the fiber. Depending on the soiling you adjust your detergent.

If you are having a foaming problem simply add a cap or 2 of defoamer in the machne and this will reduce any foam.

You can also do a final hot water rinse if you feel this is needed to remove any left over detergent.

Bud I do understand the difference between the two products. I actually learned this method of cleaning carpets and stain removal in class given at the local community college.
The class was give by a large carpet/commercial cleaning company in our city and Advantage Marketing

[www.advantagerestoration.com]

So why then are you saying not to use an Extractor Shampoo? I am unclear as to your position.

Bud A

Guess I should have been a little clearer the method we use is what took away from the class that is "only clear water in the extractor" the only thing we might use in the extractor is a defoamer in the recovery tank or a wetting agent in the clear water tank. No soap/shampoo

Just about BobM's issue. Perhaps these problematic cars are better suited to use non-biological detergents as the cleaning solution?

If it is THAT oily, perhaps a cloth doused with solvent might remove the surface contamination?

What exactly are "non-biological"detergents, if you could explain please.

Bud Abraham

What exactly are "non-biological"detergents, if you could explain please.

Bud Abraham

Well, over here there are biological and non-biological detergents. Biological contain enzymes to address organic stains like food, for example. Non-biological is for more general inorganic staining. Are your household detergents in the US not categorized in this way?

There are stainremovers formulated for organic or inorganic stains, but I gave never heard this applied to shampoos.

The term biological and non biological detergents ais a a commonly used term.

Wikepedia describes A biological detergent as a laundry detergent that contains enzymes harvested from micro-organisms such as bacteria adapted to live in hot springs.[1] The description is commonly used in the United Kingdom, where other washing detergents are described as "non-biological" (or bio and "non-bio"). Most manufacturers of biological detergents also produce non-biological ones.
[edit] Method of operation and effectiveness

Biological detergents clean in the same way as non-biological ones with additional effects from the enzymes, whose purpose is to break down protein, starches and fat in dirt and stains on clothing to be laundered, for example food stains, sweat and mud. Tests by the Consumers Association in the UK published in their Which? magazine rated the cleaning performance of washing powders based on stain removal, whiteness, and colour fading. It was found that the performance of various makes of biological powders ranged from 58% to 81%, and non-biological powders scored from 41% to 70%. The enzymes in biological detergents enable effective cleaning at lower temperatures than required by normal detergents, but are denatured at higher temperatures[1]—about 40 °C is recommended.[2]

Yep. That's what I mean. Do you think it might help with the issue - to use non-enzymatic shampoos? It was just a suggestion.

non-enzymatic You just made that up didn't you!! (lol)

which magazine?

Detergents are what are used to clean clothes the last time I reviewed terminology.

In the detail business we use the terms Carpet Shampoo; Upholstery Shampooer; All Purpose Cleaner, etc.

Even in the car wash business they do not refer to their cleaners as detergents, but as shampoos.

Interesting information you culled from the internet Gina, but I believe it is more applicable to laundry detergents than it is to detailing chemicals, other than, stain removers as I have already mentioned.

Been at this detail business for more than 30 years and have never heard these terms used by formulators of detailing chemicals. Interesting though.

Bud ABraham

Bob

I feel the problem is that you are not getting the carpet wet enough with water.
Exractors do not apply enough water to break up the stains. The chemicals you are
applying need water to loosen up the crap in the carpet, so they can be sucked
out in the dirty water solution. <br>

I have done many cars like the ones you mention, and this works for flithy carpets. This is what I do. First, I spray Greased Lightning on the carpet area,
and brush it in.Next, I soak the carpet with pure water, and use the brush again.
Then I extract it with my wet vac.

It may require two applications, but you will be surprised how much dirt comes out.I am not saying all stains will come out, but you will get better results.
The carpets will be cleaner and not sticky,

You mention you are using fans for drying, so give my method a try. It just
might solve the problem.

Bill, fair enough, I will try it this week.

Im not one that likes to remove the carpets and will try anything first. Its my oppinion that removing the carpets and the backing to hang for pressure washing ruins them. I have seen a few cars that have had this done to them and I just dont think the carpets look or fit correctly afterwards.

Bob.. not sure if you are saying washing the carpets with the backing on ruins them? Anyway it is never a good idea to wash the carpet with the backing still attached...

I would have to disagree however there is absolutely no change to the carpets after removing and pressure washing... I would say I do this on average about 4 times per day every day and have not had any issues.

So, you peel the backing off of the carpet, then pressure wash it, I have not had too much luck getting the sound deadener/insulation away from the carpet without ruining/tearing the backing. How do you do it?

There are two types of insulation jute.. a felt like material and sponge.. you come in as close as you can get and separate from carpet backing...the sponge you filet off.. if there are fibers left on the back of the carpet I have a thing a ma jig...quite frankly do not know the name for the tool but it is like a deburring tool I attach to air hose and it has teeth that spin and it grinds of the fuzz hair without damaging the backing.

I also keep in stock rolls of jute and sponge to cut new under-padding to replace the contaminated pieces

obviously there is additional charge for this service? I can not imagine a roll of jute is cheap enough to just throw in on the detail. You do this procedure 20 times a week? You must be incredibly fast. How long does it take you to do a complete interior on a vehicle?

I specialize in water leak repairs and water damage intrusion in addition to cleaning very nasty vehicles.. on average we can pull down in 25 minutes... bmws, mercedes and some other vehicles longer. I have a 2 man team pulling apart and putting back together and a separate team to clean every peice This type of cleaning is a specialized service... If it is same day... we prep, pressure wash vacuum water and under heavy blowers immediately... We also have a huge drying machine the hose looks like a dryer vent hose and that sucker can dry anything in about 20 minutes. There is an additional charge for underpadding, chemicals, disposables, PPE, specialized equipment (ozone, foggers etc) a/c mold cleaning,filter change, water testing, repairs etc