Depth

Depth, real or imagined, appears to be a result manifested by one's choice of wax. But isnt "depth" also characteristic of the paint process used by the manufacturer? Or more likely a combination of the two?

Steve,

A great deal of "depth" does come from the very start of the cars life. If the paint job is horrible then the depth that it can produce is also seriously hampered.

This is why I hate re-paints unless it is done correctly. Also, darker colord cars will provide more "depth" than say a silver or light colored car. Lighter colors produce more brilliance and shine but darks give more depth and liquidity.

In reality it is all in the polishing stages. A wax can add shine and depth but they are mainly applied for protection, to seal the highly polished paint. If I detail a black Porsche, just wash it and wax it, without properly cleaning and polishing the paint, the wax may boost the shine a bit but more likely than not the wax will only highlight the imperfections in the finish. Detail the same black Porsche but this time properly clean and polish the finish and it should look great and very deep without any wax. The wax will only enhance whats already there, giving it more "pop".

Well, thats my 2 sense, Anthony

Anthony, I enjoy reading your posts. I can't speak for anyone else, but one of my biggest challenges I have when I get a car, is to decide what products and process to use on it. Sometimes I just know what to do, other times I try one or two different things on a section before committing to the whole car. After cleaning and prepping you have a pretty good idea. But we are inundated with all kinds of polishes/cleaners/waxes. yesterday I was doing a Solara toyota, one year old/black......the owner took good take of it, other than many stone chips on the hood, the shine/finish was great. would you still polish this car? or would you have a honest talk with the owner explaing that machine polish (which does take some of the clear off) is not always the best choice. or would you use a glaze hand polish prior to wax? just curious / thanks tm

If it was me I wouldnt get too worried about using a high speed machine polish unless there were scratches that needed corrected. I use a hand applied polish when there are no bad scratches. Besides, I am still learning to master my high speed machine and unless I have total confidence in myself I dont tackle that particular project with the machine polish. I am finding that just like in all technical trades machine buffing is a skill that you never stop learning to master. I know guys who have done it for years and they still look for ways to improve their skill.


John

Exactly

I have to chime in on the subject of paint depth. I own a 1986 Monte Carlo SS which I brought into a top shelf body shop in April for a complete strip down and repaint. I could only afford these guys because I agreed to let them do it a their leisure and promised I would not get impatient with them.
they work on the car in between what they call their "money jobs". to make a long story short they finally put color and clear coat on the car yesterday and I went to see it today. I walked up to the car and it was an absolute mirror! My reflection was not distorted at all. It was truly looking at a picture of myself in the reflection of the paint. When I told the guys how impressed I was and what a great job they did they said "wait until it is ruffed and buffed! What I was looking at wasn't even the finished product!
They are telling me it will be twice as good when wet sanded and buffed.
The point is paint depth truly starts with the original application.
I also own a 2000 Monte SS that is black. You look at your reflection in the factory paint and it looks like you are in one of those funhouse mirrors in the carnival ..all distorted. I guess they may have my 2000 for a couple of months as well!!!!

Hi Turbo, and thanks for the kind words and I can also say "ditto" of yours.

Perhaps I can best answer your great questions by explaining what I did today plus the last two days, off and on.

I did a black on black BMW Z8 today which has found its second owner in its short life. There is like 4K miles on it and the first owner must have washed it with a Briilo pad because it was just filled with swirls and scratches. Even on the interior painted surfaces. I just sighed, rolled my eyes and sleeves up then broke out my high speed and a wool polishing pad. I know this may sound harsh but the scratches were everywhere and in every direction so I had to level the paint down a bit.

After this step, with a compund designed to remove 1200 grit sanding marks, I used Pinnacles cleansing lotion by hand to remove any left over residue and give me a clean paint to work with. Cleansing Lotion is like a astrigent one uses on their face to remove oil and clean pores.

Next I used a polish designed to remove 2000 grit sanding marks with a foam polishing pad. The paint jumped back to life, yet I had a few swirls and some light hazing but the reflection was great. A wipe down with a body prep solution then a finishing pad with Meguirs #9 and I then had a awesome gloss plus depth. Now while this did remove 95% of the scratches there were a few that were a bit stubborn and since I had to be so agressive the first time out I thoughtit best to leave these alone, for right now. If and when the owner decides to sell it I will hit it once more being more agressive on those scratches.

I finished off with a light hand rub with #9 on a foam applicator pad and topped off with a paste wax. Very wet look and very deep. Now before I started this venture I told the customer that I would need the car a few days and that I would have to get nasty with the paint. He trusts me and all was cool. The reason I give this lengthy tale is because while I am washing a car I am thinking ahead as to how and what should be done.

As you said, do I clay it, or just hit it with a polish then wax, does it need a 3 step or 5 step?? Also, I do as you do. I sometimes do a fender with the step that requires the least amount of work first, step back, take a look and if it looks good, then I just continue on.

Here is how I go about it most of the time. If I am doing a light colored car, silver, white, titanium, etc. I can almost always get away with a 2 step process. I will do a 5 step process for those Titanium exotic's. Now for the darker cars, like dark blue, blacks, greens and dark metalics I can almost always bet I will be doing at least a 3-5 step process (clay, cleaner, polish, wax).

I will try these steps by hand first but by now I can pretty much tell if a finish needs the high speed action. Dark colored cars reflect their own color and hence they show more imperfections BUT if done right, with care, attention and patience, they can also be the most beautiful to behold.

There are a few words of wisdom I can put forth about high speed buffing with even more words of warning. Here, in closing, I give a word of warning! Take your time and by all means....give your hands and wrists a break now and then. After 13 years of buffing and Jujitsu locks, my wrists can hardly hold up thru one car buffing and polishing. They ache and cramp up. I would claim workmans comp but hey, I own the business!

Anthony

If you get a newer car without alot of scratches ive found that orbital with imperial hand glaze and a coat of wax makes the car look like glass hey that rymes!

Anthony, In reponse to your recent post I thought I would share my experience from yesterday. I did a 1962 Corvette Convertable/with removable hard-top. The finish which was NOT clear coated, was dull, it lacked life, shine and depth. (which is why I got the car) Don has indicated to me many times we make decisions based on gut, or a feeling about what "should " be done. I was going over in my head different products I might use on this car, so when the final time came, after she was spittin clean here is what I did.
1. I started out with a small section using meguiars fine cut cleaner/polish with a green pad at low speed/ amazingly, I saw a huge improvement already, so I proceded over entire car.
2. Then I used meguiars machine glaze, again at low speed to bring depth and shine back.
3. Then I used Auto magic high gloss sealant which I applied by hand and removed with a polishing pad blue pad, at I could believe the finish. Working with non-clear coat finishes used to worry me, not any more. The owner was so happy with his car, he insisted on having me give him 40 of my business cards to pass out at the Corvette clubs next meeting. I thank you and this board for giving me the confidence and knowledge to get to where I'm at. learning is an on going process......today is a black carrera, not a problem.....tm

Turbo,

Thats awesome to hear (or READ).

You did it right by taking it slow and really working the paint AND the product. Always buff "wet", keep it slow, avoid prolonged passes over edges and raised contours and by all means, keep the pads clean. You should have no major problems.

A word of advice on the Porshe's. Porsche's have lots of rounded edges and with this type of shape, especially the front and rear ends over the wheels, it is easy to get the polishing pads off center and put some really nasty swirls in. One can avoid this if they break these areas down into smaller polishing areas, passing the polisher over in slow non jerking movements. If you notice the pads "stuttering" then you are off balance, or better, there is more wieght being applied to one angle and/or the product has dried up.

If done properly the curves and smooth lines of the Porsche really stand out and man, they look beautiful.

Keep up the good work.

Anthony

After 20+ years of laying the fibers and fingers to the surfaces, I now wear a muscle strap and anti-vibration glove, and do physical therapy twice a week. I still love to see the look on their faces when they pick them up and bring them back. Anthony was right when he spoke of the patience, and committment involved in proper surface preparation all the way to the results.
For you new folks and those of you that have been scared of how far you can go before you hit disaster, why don't you get you some car doors and hoods with different colors and paint types and see how far you can go before you burn through. Also get with an experienced painter and ask your questions, you cannot progress until your questions are answered. He or she might even tell you why you don't send a freshly detailed car to the body shop. Be careful, some vehicles that look like they have clearcoat do not. as far as my experience is concerned with depth and richness of color, you will get to a point to where your understanding of the products is so clear and the many changes in surface characteristics that you will be able to manipulate very easily. Most people that are good with the wheel know that you cannot remove a scratch, but you can blend it in with heat and by bringing the surface down around it so it disappears. Each one of the stages plays a vital role. Each stage has to be in the right place. Be a leader, you and your customers will be watching.

And there's more . . . . . . . . .

Stephen,

great advice and thanks for the tips on the glove deal. After doing cars for the day I come home and either post here or on several other forums and that means TYPING....sigh.

If I may also inject one more thought into this subjective debate over "gloss and depth". What many new and even veteran detailers fail to realize about clear coat paints is that you are not polishing the pigmented paint. That paint, whether it be red, blue, black, silver or hot pink (yicks!) can never be touched, unless of course you happen to be daydreaming while watching the paint turn a unique shade of "nothingness", then you are working with not only the pigmented paint but also the primer, which is not a good thing.

So......the moral learned here is this. In the wonderful and stress-free world of auto detailing, this rule applies: "Less is more" Next time anyone of you guys or gals is going to attempt a 5 step behemoth of a detail on a silver Yugo (pun intended) just clean the paint real good and smear on a good carnuba, step back and admire the shine.

Anthony

Oh man thats funny, "nothingness"! What kind of buffer do you use Anthony? I have a dewalt, the ONLY thing I like about it is the adjustable speed control, I wish milwakee could make a polisher that adjusts at 100 rpm intervals.

Im thinking of some ear plugz with this polisher. Now that Ive tried a few different models, I 'll have to agree with the man Toddco, those milwakees are the best, in my opinion, the weight is good and the machinery is smooth!

Dan,

Well I use a ol beat up Black & Decker Automotive Series. They no longer make the one I have which really bites because it never fails me.

I have had to replace the cord twice in 10 years of service but thats it.

It has a great variable speed dial right where my thumb rests so I can go from 1500 to 3000 faster than the Porsche GT 2 I just did !!

(I never go beyond 2000 RPM, really)

I am perhaps going to purchase, this week in fact, a new Metabo or Mikita polisher. I am going to try each one out first though.

Take care, Anthony

The question of depth is really has to do with the smoothness of the paint finish. When a paint finish is filled with orange peel it will not reflect light as well as a paint surface that is perfectly smooth.

If a paint finish has orange peel all you can do to increase shine and depth of shine is to wet/dry sand it to remove the irregular surface and then buff with 800 grit compound to remove the sand marks and then buff with a micor fine compound and then polish.

This is the proper process that a body shop should follow after sanding out orange peel.

Regards
Bud Abraham



buda

Oh so you have the old buffmaster? I believe it is almost exactly the same as the new dewalts. My buddy has this polisher and had to replace the cord as well. I wonder if the porter cable rotary is a good one or not?

I see you all talking about orbital or D/A tools. If you are looking to make corrections in paint finishes and removing swirls you need to have a Rotary Buffer in order to get the friction and heat.

An orbital or D/A does not provide any friction. In fact, you can get more friction with your hand.

Regards
BUD ABRAHAM



buda

Turbo:
You say:"Then I used Auto magic high gloss sealant which I applied by hand and removed with a polishing pad blue pad, at I could believe the finish."
Why do you use Auto magic? Have you compared that to Mequiars, which is what I use, but I am just curious as to your experiences?

The "polishing pad blue pad", is that any different to the Mequiars pad and also what has been your experience with the others out there? Is it price?

Thanks

For the record, in all my years in the detail business I have never seen a need to remove wax or paint sealant from the car's finish with a buffer and buffing pad.

If you have done the first two steps correctly all you need do is apply the wax or paint sealant by hand or with an orbital and remove by orbital or hand.

The use of a buffer to apply and remove wax is a trick of the wholesale detailer.

In order to cut corners they will buff out a car with compound and then skip the swirl removing step.

What they do is take the buffer and their wax and buff it on the car. This does a great job of "filling" the swirl marks with the oily wax and covers them up.

Problem is that when the car is washed a few times, voila, you have swirls.

With wholesale cars this is not a problem because the dealer only wants the car to look good to sell, heck with what happens later.

What I would like to do is share with you all what I know about paint finishing:

Typically there are three steps in a paint finishing process:

1. Correction of a problem

2. Removal of swirls and/or polishing for shine

3. Protection

CORRECTION (base coat/clear coat finishes only)

You would need to use a Rotary Buffer Tool
For pads you would use a Poly/Wool Blend Cutting Pad or Foam Cutting Pad

Chemicals - for the most part you can use either a light compound 2000 grit or a Micro Fine Compound with either pad.

Buffer works at 1700 to 1800 RPM

SWIRL REMOVAL/POLISH SHINE

A Rotary Buffer Tool
Foam Polishing Pad or Sheepskin Polishing Pad (preference)
Chemical - a product that serves as both a swirl remover and polish in one. It is not necessary to have two different products.

You can start with this step on a car that has a good paint finish, no corrections needed.


PROTECTION

You can use either a nice carnuaba wax or better yet a paint sealant as long as you can buy a paint sealant for no more than $21 a gallon. Some companies are selling sealants for $45 a quart. Beware.

The sealant will last up to 6 months under the best conditions whereas a wax, the best wax, will last no more than 30 days.

The fastest way to apply is by orbital, and personally I remove by towel and hand.

If you follow these steps and do each step correctly there is no necessity to do anything more.

ONE STEP

There are some products on the market that are one step products, that is they have a cleaner and protection ingredient in t hem. You must be careful to not use those products designed for wholesale/dealer cars. This product is about as good as a bottle of liquid Turtle Wax off the shelf. No durability about 2 weeks at best.

What you want is a good cleaner/sealant product that will last 3 to 4 months.

This can be applied with a RotaryBuffer and polishing pad.

If anyone wants a definition of terms that is what is a: Compound; Polish; Swirl Remover; Glaze; Wax; Paint Sealant please feel free to email me personallly.

Regards
Bud Abraham



buda

Bud I enjoyed your post. I am interested to know what products you prefer for each of these steps. Do you use 3M or Meguiars? What type of sealant do you use? I have been using the Meguiars Polymer Sealant and have been impressed with its durability compared to other products I have used but I think I am paying more for it that you do for yours probably. I find that if the auto is left outside that anything I apply wont last much beyond a few months usually.
I usually use the Swirl Free Polish or the Dual Action Polish with a follow up coat of the sealant. I have been happy with the results but I would like to know about more affordable products that work just as well if there are any.


Thanks,

John

I agree with pretty much everything you stated, only the buffer speed for paint correction, is a little high for clear coated finishes. Maybe you have some miracle product that works at this speed, but this is what i have found. The product breaks down way to fast at 1700 rpm, to correct as much as possible. The heat alone can damage sensitive clear coats, unless you are spinning all around the finish to avoid heat, but then, why do this? All that your doing is trying not to create heat and at the same time not allowing the product to work in and correct (level) damage. Correct me if I am right.

Dan