Close call

We are lucky to have a site like this where detailing subjects can be discussed without fear of being banned. Bud is finding out first hand how true that is . He has mentioned the Buff Pro many times here, and I have no real problem with that.

Well, he tried that on the truth in detailing forum, and you can see exactly
how easy it is. Here is the post:

[truthindetailing.com]



Notice how the moderator ends it:

Bud Abraham
This seems to me that it is more like dishonest, misinformed SPAM. Please consider this your only warning on the matter.

Todd
__________________
Todd Helme
Detailing Training and Education
properautocare.com

I really do not think Bud deserved this warning, or he said anything wrong. Although,maybe he will get a better sense of what it feels like when others
disagree with him based on only opinions.Bud states this in the post:"Again, all I can say is that one should not reach any conclusions without trying the tool first". Gee, that is all I asked of him when we had the go around on AT-5.



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2011 03:13PM by billd55.

You shouldn't be allowed to push/promote/shill/spam your products on any forum unless you are a sponsor and/or have the site admin's aproval. It's disrespectful to the not only the members but the paying sponsors too. This is common sense on all the respectable forums I frequent. Especially if you are affiliated with the Buff-Pro like Bud is. What made Bud look bad is the way he was condescending about using the product when in fact it was just to grandstand it. I think the Moderator on Truth In Detailing was right in line with his post. If a product is good it will sell itself and you don't need to spam the internet to gain a sale. As far as this BuffPro is concerned I haven't hearn ANY good things about it yet. In fact a person who's opinion I respect and is considered a real leader in the detailing industry says this:

"Here's the deal, the BuffPro Polisher I tested leaves a haze in the paint that during the demonstration and testing I was present for it couldn't remove.

The inventor and marketer of this tool told me that you only have to remove the haze off black and dark colored cars but the reality is, if it's leaving a visible haze on black and dark colored cars it's leaving a haze on all colored cars because the haze is being left in the clear layer and on light colored cars you're eyes can't easily see the haze. It's still there though.

I've been told the people selling the BuffPro Polisher has said I endorse or recommend this tool and that's not accurate. I told them that I could see it for use on large white items like boats or motorhomes where the haze it leaves would not be noticeable and in that market the people that owned the boat or motorhome were not looking for a true show car finish like the owner of a black Corvette would be expecting from machine polishing."

This tool obviously doesn't have a place in auto detailing world for anyone interested in doing quality paint correction. You have to be pretty niave to try spamming an enthusiast forum with that substandard machine. This isn't the 1st time a BuffPro Rep has tried this either. They've spammed several forums which ultimately lead to people giving negative feedback not just on the poster, but the product/manufacturer. In this case I would say no publicity is good publicity.

Each forum has it own rules and when you become a member you agree to abide by the terms of the of the Forum. So Truth In Detailing would be within its rights to warn you if you have violated any of their terms.

On this forum the moderator has allowed us a wide latitude to spam and discuss ad nausem AT5 and other subjects much to the forums detriment. It is is obvious it has taken a toll on the forum as participation is down as people are reluctant to come here anymore. It is a pity the people engaged in this behavior are so thoughtless, and insensitive to the feelings of other people and the owner of the forum they are willing to drive everyone off just to make a point...

Since we are so lucky to have a site that is so flexible then we need to be mindful of this.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2011 08:18PM by concoursgarage.

Pro-Techt

I agree that Bud was grandstanding the Buff Pro in this post.Clearly, he was not honest about his financial interest in the post, but so what.

I have not used the Buff Pro enough to form any judgment. Although,
I feel forums attract people to their site to talk about detailing. Although,
to not discuss a product is really hard to do.

If you go back and read my posts on this forum I never mentioned AT-5, but only
what I thought caused swirl marks and how to prevent them. When people asked me what I used how could I not mention AT-5.

The moderator controls what is said, he voices his opinion and that is it.That is fine, but is this really a forum?Sponsors pay to have their name upfront for all that come to the forum, but are their products the only ones that can be mentioned?For example: on one post a wax was mentioned on sale at Walmart, and thousands of views were noted. Was someone schilling for Walmart? Who knows.
No one said a thing about that post.

My only point here is that Bud promotes himself as an expert everyone should listen to. Although, he clearly does not follow the advice he asks of others
if it is contrary to what he thinks.

Gina
Maybe you should contact the owner of the forum and ask to be the moderator?
Will that make you happy?

There is obviously a reason why you have a track record of being banned from detailing forums. There is no conspiracy against you & AT-5. See Bill, that's why I think you have some kind of imbalance in your brain that you can't relegate fact from fiction. Even when so many people have proven you wrong, you keep regurgitating your inaccurate view of detailing reality. This way of fear-based rationalization is quite common with schizophrenic people. You eat, sleep & breathe AT-5 which is pretty pathetic in itself all together. There's much more to detailing that your product even though you choose to be so narrow minded with your thinking about it. I really can't see how you can call yourself a Professional Detailer with this 1 dimensional thinking.

Like concoursgarage mantioned.....you're own grandstanding is hurting this and other forums. Stop while you're NOT ahead.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2011 09:53PM by Pro-Techt.

Pro Techt

"I really can't see how you can call yourself a Professional Detailer with this 1 dimensional thinking".

Really, I say the same thing about you. Remember this post:

Re: Is buffing the only solution to swirl marks?
Posted by: Profile Detailer (IP Logged)
Date: March 13, 2011 03:40PM

The way people talk, the way they write and the way other people receive the message can be very different. Bill isn't coming across as crazy, Pro-Techt. But you are having a heavy rant about what he is saying which makes you look a little over-emotional.

Bill is simply saying that Detailers who machine-polish with filler products will find that swirl marks return as the fillers diminish. Even moreso if they polish badly (old or dirty pads, incorrect compounds/speeds, etc). He feels that simply using a good sealant will reduce the need for washing, thereby reducing wash-induced swirls and reducing the need to machine-polish overall, thus breaking the swirl cycle. (Personally, I see swirls and marks that are mainly wash-induced - that's my market though. Average detailer here polishes by hand not machine).

Bill, I appreciate that you like AT-5. I can't get it here. But both myself and now SVR have tried an excellent new sealant called Crystal Diamond Glaze from ReStructure Marine Products. You can apply it by hand, but its finest qualities are revealed when applied with a DA and soft foam pad. What do you say to trying something new and comparing it to AT-5? I know you will say you don't need to try something new, but that is what others say about AT-5 versus what they use already.

Go on, take a chance. : )

ENOUGH CRAP LETS DISCUSS SOMETHING NEW
Posted by: svr73 (IP Logged)
Date: March 24, 2011 09:45PM

Okay everyone. I'm sick of all this AT5 talk and arguments
I respect Bill for what he has put across and I agree that wax is not the preffered way to protect paintwork
And correction shouldnt be our sole focus of paint repair. there are other ways

However there are myriads of things to discuss instead so please - lets move on and start something new



By the way I believe you made this statement:"I’m actually planning on contacting GEM early next week and will try meeting with them to discuss their products as well as their spokesman’s behavior on the internet". Did you ever contact them?



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2011 10:56PM by billd55.

Classic example to back up what I said^^^ cuckoo for cocoa puffs

(Gina
Maybe you should contact the owner of the forum and ask to be the moderator?
Will that make you happy?)

Buffer Bill you are a DUMB ASS

Yeah Bud was asking for trouble from the start there
I admire the guy, hes a legend in this business but going on a forum and promoting the product without sponsoring the forum (basically SPAMMING) is a no no

The one thing I don't understand about Jim Farrell who created the buff pro is

He gets paid a little more than I do (up to 3K vs 4K) to refinish car finishes(super high end polishing) and yet he can't use a rotary without having hologram issues

It is not the fault of the machine, its the guy behind the wheel of it
Yes it happens to the best of us from time to time but its rare and when it does happen, they are minimal and easily removed (its just surface marring)

Jewelling and glassing out the paint fixes that

Also, Jim originally was a Menzerna user and I once was too (2004 to 2009) but its not the best product line anymore and some of their products do fill although unintentionally

The way to not leave holograms is to not use compounds at all, instead using single polish systems from either Gtechniq P1, System One X3 aka System 51 (new owners website name) which is only $75 for a gallon or XPERT Ultra 1000 single polish system

The other ways to not leave holograms is to not do "ONE SPEED" Machine polishing whereby one RPM speed is used from start to finish
Say 1400 rpm with meguiars products or 1500 - 1800 with most others
Slowing down the speeds, all the way back to 600 or 900 is the best method
As well as using clean pads, using one product only with each pad and keeping the pad lubricated with black baron pad lube and polish as well

Keep the pad 99% of the time helps alot too
And two more factors are critical to flawless polishing. - Make sure the pad is perfectly centred on the rotary and keep an eye on the spindle of the machine. Mine got a wobble in it last year and had to get a replacement spindle put in

If pads are not perfectly centred or you have a wobbly spindle, the rotary acts like an orbital and thus correction ability is reduced and alot of marring is usually the end result of that

The owner of a superb car restoration shop in Adelaide that I help with polishing said to me last year that rotaries should never be stored on their sides as this puts the spindle out of balance



With all this said, I still respect Jim for the Buff Pro even though it is a rehashed astro drum polisher.

Understanding paint, pad and product combo's and so much more really helps to prevent holograms

You may not like what I say,and I may not like what you say. Although, I am not the one who is tossing out insulting comments.At least I can defend my points of view
without insulting people with stupid remarks.

No one is forcing anyone here to read my posts.You are more than welcome to make
your own posts explaining what you think, but for some reason none of you do.
My mistake has been trying to answer questions from people who see detailing
with blinders on. From now on that will stop, and I willfocus on people who want to learn new things and not start arguments.

Quote
billd55
My mistake has been trying to answer questions from people who see detailing with blinders on. From now on that will stop, and I will focus on people who want to learn new things and not start arguments.

Now that's a scary thought....people who learn from you?

Svr73

Good post.You make some valid points, and it was informative.


Got a question for you? I read sealants like AT-5 and ToughSeal bond to the
clear, and the products you use become part of the paint. What is the difference?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2011 03:15AM by billd55.

My intention wasn't to go WWE style and lay the smack down, although after reading the post, I can see how it looks that way.

Running a forum costs money and PAC flips the bill. This is common sense. A detailer wouldn't let a competitor put a logo on their detailing rig.

I am not saying that the Buff-Pro is a bad tool or isn't effective and I agree with Bud that we must keep an open mind. Look at the recent advancements made by Meguiar's in DA technology, in both polishing liquids and pad design...

Bud is an old school detailer who has a successful business and has tons of knowledge/experience that this forum would benefit from. We acknowledge that people use other brands of products (products not sold by PAC) and thats fine. We don't even limit the discussion of these brands. However we do not allow thinly veiled and dishonest posts by those with a financial interest in the product. It's really simple: Unbiased reviews=okay. Biased reviews=not okay. Obviously the internet makes it easier for people to cheat the system, and we give everybody the benefit of the doubt.

So if you have no bias that is ok, but if you a bias that is not okay.
It sounds like a social club, not a forum IMO.


Read these posts and see if this applied to me:


[truthindetailing.com]

[truthindetailing.com]


I have no problem with making money, but the truth in detailing seems to be determined by who pays the bills. Although, to say this is just makes little
sense at all.

It's really simple: Unbiased reviews=okay. Biased reviews=not okay


The definition of a forum is this:A place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged. If you have a bias, you are not
welcome, and the same old concepts are rehashed over and over until they
become dogma where no one can question anything without ridicule.

Bias meansrejudice in favor of or against one thing, person, or group compared with another, usually in a way considered to be unfair. Now given this definition, it appears that anyone who joins most forums should have no point of view on anything to be welcome. So how can anyone learn anything if this is the case.

How can anyone determine anything about the Buff Pro if that is the case. Bud
presents his case and he has a clear bias, so he should not be welcome according to Todd H.Now, Svr 73 has a bias that does not agree with bud's, so he also should be not welcome.HOW CAN YOU HAVE FORUM WITH NO BIAS? It makes no sense IMO.



Many of you here cannot see this, and this is why I say Web Cars is the only true detailing forum on the internet.



Edited 14 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2011 04:28PM by billd55.

Quote
billd55
Svr73

Good post.You make some valid points, and it was informative.


Got a question for you? I read sealants like AT-5 and ToughSeal bond to the
clear, and the products you use become part of the paint. What is the difference?

Thank you Bill.

Toughseal step 1 pre cleans the surface chemically and lays a foundation for the step 2 acrylic sealant to bond too it thus locking it in
This however is old technology now

Glare, Restructure Marine and watery Liquid spray on or wipe on glass coatings actually leave a solid membrane which can be built upon with subsequent applications

The Japanese and European runny liquid glass coatings cure instantly with the molecules of the paint or plastic

thus how gloss and depth are achieved. by replenishing the lost clear coat thats removed by buffing with a synthetic form of clear coat that is buffed, sprayed or wiped on

svr

I think I see the difference, so what you are saying is that Glare products
actually repair things like scratches, acid rain and tree sap etching for example.
with this synthetic clear. Am I correct in that assumption?

They fill in defects for about a year but I mostly use glare and restructure marine after correction when there are no defects left at all
Basically those and the Jap coatings are replenishing what is lost from correction if you do that.

the products deep clean the paint too

we are on our way to eliminating glare entirely (just using micro, ultra wash in semi waterless style) and Zero at the moment)