You might love or hate this...

He's at it again. This time £6000 for a vehicle reconditioning... go figure!

[www.detailingworld.co.uk]

I love it... any positive discussion on car care is great for our industry... it is sure better than news about $50.00 details

Friends :
If I understand correctly, the entire car was wet-sanded and buffed . I wonder how much clearcoat was removed in the process. Even if less than 1/2 mil was removed, the paint is still thinner than it was. Might it have been better to repaint the car instead of restoring the paint ?

Note-
Anyone who question's Dalton's prices should consider his liability should he ever damage a Dusenberg or even a lowly BMW .

Doug

Doug Delmont Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Even if
> less than 1/2 mil was removed, the paint is still
> thinner than it was. Might it have been better
> to repaint the car instead of restoring the paint
> ?
>
>
>
Not sure what you're referring to Doug? Are you saying that because *maybe* 1/2 a mil of paint might have been removed (which I seriously doubt) that it would be more beneficial to repaint the whole car? I can't see any rationale behind this kind of notion. Repainting a car will cause a severe deminishment in value above and beyond countless quality issues associated with the refinish process. Leveling the finish to remove defects is pretty non-evasive. Espcially when one of, if not the, most highly recognized paint correctionists in the world is performing the procedure.

He said he removed about 6 Microns from the paint, which is what - about 1/4 of a mil?

That car had a lot of re-spray work done. It doesn't make economical sense to pay £6K for a paint correction on that car even if it is a Miracle Detail correction.

I sometimes buy cars and put them through an intensive reconditioning to sell for profit. Not that I am saying Paul has done that here... ahem... not at all. He is the master of self-marketing though.

Sure, on a car with prior refinishing there could be a trade off, but when you factor in doing a complete repaint on a vehicle such as an M5, it could easily cost you twice what Paul charged to create an acceptable product. Plus, it *could* require additional massaging following it. I always shy away from suggesting a repaint on a client's vehicle due to the likihood of greater problems. With the way people(dealers) inspect and deminish them following a repair/refinish it just isn't worth it. CarFax & paint thickness guages have given dealers/buyers an avenue to negotiate actual cash values to urealistic levels.

From what I have learned from my contacts at Azko-Sikkens; DuPont and Ford Motor Co a factory clear is has 1.0 to 1.5 mild thickness. It is recommended that no more than 1/3 or 1/2 mil be removed during buffing. More will destroy the integrity of the clear.

Further, a factory clear is not intended to be wet or dry sanded.

When an aftermarket shop repaints a car and then wet or dry sands the paint to correct flaws they are instructed by the paint companies to spray from 2.0 to 2.5 mild of clear on the car because the sanding will remove up to 1.0 mild of clear.

Regards

Some of the most cringe-worthy details that I come across on the forums are hot-shots who take a brand new ferrari or bmw and sand the orange peel out of it. Sure the paint is flatter, but what if the car needs to be polished again in the future. To me, exotics and supercars should be treated like babies - keep them clean, healthy and present them with pride to the world. But if you are not happy with the amount of OP on a new $150k (or way more) car , you should be discussing it with the manufacturer rather than handing it over to a vainglorious detailer to "exfoliate! CRINGE!!

buda Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> From what I have learned from my contacts at
> Azko-Sikkens; DuPont and Ford Motor Co a factory
> clear is has 1.0 to 1.5 mild thickness. It is
> recommended that no more than 1/3 or 1/2 mil be
> removed during buffing. More will destroy the
> integrity of the clear.

Actually, typical factory clear will measure between 1.5 & 2 mils. By your rationale of your measurements, if you remove ½ mil on a panel that has “1” mil, that would leave you with only .5 mil. I don’t think this is really what you’re trying to illustrate?


> buda Wrote:
> Further, a factory clear is not intended to be wet
> or dry sanded.

I don’t think the word “intended” is a fitting word for this discussion. Especially when referring to OEM finishes. No high production style manufacturer will ever “intend” on sanding their product, but they realize and are ok with the need to when taking care of imperfections in the quality control area of the paint/assembly line or in doing warranty repairs at the dealer level. This could include such things as runs, dirt or excessive defects or when correcting problems such as acid rain removal and heavy contaminants. These often require heavy sanding(per OEM car manufacturers SOP) thus reducing the clearcoat film thickness to “acceptable levels”. It’s not like manufacturers don’t advocate sanding their paint as it’s actually a standard procedure that needs to be performed on a regular basis when done to spec.


> buda Wrote:
> When an aftermarket shop repaints a car and then
> wet or dry sands the paint to correct flaws they
> are instructed by the paint companies to spray
> from 2.0 to 2.5 mild of clear on the car because
> the sanding will remove up to 1.0 mild of clear.
>

Not sure if the word “flaw” is accurate either when referring to orange peel as well as the amount of clear you’re claiming is removed during this “flaw” correcting process? Removal of flaws such as dirt or runs are an everyday occurrence for most body shops in the post refinish process. Based on this known fact, I don't know any shops that are instructed to apply anymore than 2 coats of clear to remove such flaws. It’s not realistic or necessary actually. But, when painters are doing specialty repairs that require reproducing a flat factory finish(rare) it is customary for them to apply an additional sacrificial coat for the orange peel sanding/leveling process. I can honestly say that removing 1 mil of clear is pretty excessive during this endeavor though. Not sure if you've sanded many modern car finishes to remove orange peel, but I can say that much less sanding is needed to produce the results desired.

Profile Detailer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Some of the most cringe-worthy details that I come
> across on the forums are hot-shots who take a
> brand new ferrari or bmw and sand the orange peel
> out of it. Sure the paint is flatter, but what if
> the car needs to be polished again in the future.
> To me, exotics and supercars should be treated
> like babies - keep them clean, healthy and present
> them with pride to the world. But if you are not
> happy with the amount of OP on a new $150k (or way
> more) car , you should be discussing it with the
> manufacturer rather than handing it over to a
> vainglorious detailer to "exfoliate! CRINGE!!


Ahh, you must be referring to this example: [www.autopia.org]

I can assure you that Todd took the utmost care and caution in performing this proceedure. The owner actually did take this issue up with the manufacturer and was totally reinbursed for the cost of having this treatment completed. Although Ferrari didn't directly advocate the need to perform such an operation, they did recognize a manufacturing problem and have taken full responsibilty for any long term damage that may result from such corrective action. They and the car owner both understood that sanding of the finish (by a known professional) was much less evasive for the car in contrast to a total repaint. Not to mention decreased value too.

It all gets down to protection of the clearcoat. Unfortunately, most consider shine and water beading to be the defination of protection. Well,
I have seen this conditon soo many times, and the only solution is abrasive buffing and more wax to cover up the problem. What really amazes
me is that most people on these detail forums think it is not strange that 49 hours are required to fix this mess . I spend that much time on 30 ft
boats that are in the sun and salt water 24 hours a day.

The question in my mind is not how much clear you remove, but why remove any if you do not have to. If you use wax, then what you see on the BMW will continue to happen. Whether it is caused by improper washing with Dawn. or using a dirty wash mit the cause of this scratching is
the wax breaking down and buffing is needed to totally remove it. There is a answer, but most people like Todd just throw lip service at it.
He mentioned he wanted to try AT-5, but has still not . I wonder why?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2011 02:05PM by billd55.

Is that you Buffer Bill? Glad to see you are back promoting your acrylic sealants.

Pro-techt -
I was simply asking a question, not expressing an opinion .

It appears from what has been said here that repainting has a lot of negative effects, that the detailer in question only removed a small amount of clearcoat, and that repainting is a last resort for some cars .

Bill :
Washing with Dawn does not scratch the paint ( or do any other noticable damage ) . Washing with Dawn ( one time ) is recommended by Zaino to remove other companies' products prior to applying Zaino sealants .
Meguiar's says to use car wash soap, claiming that dish detergents may remove wax and oils from the paint .

Micro scratches are caused, as you say, by dirty wash mitts . They can also be caused by old-fashioned brush car washes in the UK , by dirt and sand dragged over the paint during snow removal and by snow removal brushes themselves, or by washing without enough water. Drying towels can pick up dirt missed during washing and scrape it against the paint, causing scratches .
To minimize scratches, I make one pass over the paint with a boar's hair truck brush, rinse off any dirt that came loose, and go over the car again to remove the rest of the dirt.

Wax does not " break down " and have to be removed by buffing ; and even if wax really broke down and were buffed off, that wouldn't scratch the paint.

Sealants may help prevent scratches but cannot keep dirt from a dirty mitt from scratching the paint .

Sources : www.zainostore.com , www.meguiars.com , old posts by Dan Loves Tea , www.griotsgarage.com , www.automagic.com
Doug

I found this post on the Meguiar's forum which sums up what I have been saying here for a long time .


Registered Member


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Join Date:Oct 2011
Location:Lancaster, PA
Posts:3Rep Power:1New F150
Hi all
Just picked up a 2011 F150 supercrew in Black - Laid down, by hand, a coat of Ultimate Polish followed by NXT2 liquid wax. WOW
Looks great.. I love detailing and want to keep after the paint.
My questions are

1- Do I need to strip the old wax and polish off before applying another coat of the same?

2- I'm picking up a PC DA and want to apply by machine. What pads should I get to keep the paint perfect.

3- What other Meguiars products will make the Black paint deep, wet and glossy


Thanks


This truck is brand new and he is already buying a polisher and pads so he can strip the wax and polish he just applied. What he or anyone else on that forum has no clue about is that DA will not keep the black paint perfect, but just wear down the clearcoat and create the same condition you see on the BMW over time. Pretty soon polish will not cut it, so compound will be needed and it will be down hill from from there.

It is sad that this continues to happen because companies like meguiar's push these outdated products and techniques, and detailers like Todd can continue to charge these insane prices to fix a problem that is caused from using wax. Go figure

Doug

Your quote:

Washing with Dawn does not scratch the paint

You are right. Washing and waxing does not scratch the paint by itself. Although , most modern waxes and poly sealants are designed to hold up to harsh washings somewhat according to Micheal Stoops from Meguiars. Car wash soaps are mild so they will not strip the wax. Waxes and polysealants cannot be applied over themselves, so that is why do they have to be removed before another coat can be applied.

Your quote:
Wax does not " break down " and have to be removed by buffing ; and even if wax really broke down and were buffed off, that wouldn't scratch the paint.

Really, this statement makes little sense to me, but I sure hear it alot. Were are your facts to back this statement up? Why is it common knowledge not to use Dawn to wash your car when wax is applied? Think about it! Maybe because it strips the coat of wax.

Here is how Micheal Stoops from Mequiar's answersd my question on this subject:

While a single wash with a dishwashing detergent may not remove all the wax/sealant on a vehicle, especially if the coat of wax/sealant is very fresh (hence, detergent resistant - not detergent proof), multiple washes will. Now, if you haven't waxed your car in several months then the little wax that is left isn't going to survive a thorough detergent washing.

Notice he says : detergent resistant- not detergent proof ,and may not remove ALL the wax/sealant layer. It may be true that a single layer of wax may not last multiple detergent washings, but most people who use wax do not use harsh soaps so that layer may last longer. If wax can cover up swirl marks, then these scratches that you see on this BMW could surely be caused from washings following by polish and more wax/sealant to correct the problem . I am just guessing here, but clearly using a wax/ sealant is the main reason for what you see on this BMW.


I really wish people would stop assuming I am saying waxing and washing scratches the paint. I AM NOT. Yes, if you use a wash mit full of sand it may do that. What I am saying is that when you wash a car that has wax on it. It will produce a visual effect in the wax/sealant layer that you see on this BMW. Now there may be actual scratches in the clear itself, but when you see this on brand new cars it is not in the clear itself in all cases.


Here is a video of a 2000 Lexus that has never been waxed, and was washed with Dawn. Notice the condition of the paint. Why does it not look
like the BMW? Where are the scratches? The lady only washed at a car wash, so you would think it should be loaded with them.

[www.youtube.com]


Doug, really you have a distorted view of sealants. You keep mentioning Zaino all the time. The only real difference between a wax and a sealant
is the fact it can withstand washing for a longer period than true waxes do. Manufactures call this protection, but it is really just more durable .



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2011 04:33PM by billd55.

Bill :
Apparently you misread I wrote - -that Zaino recommends washing with dawn to remove any wax or sealant already there, so Zaino will adhere properly. Obviously, this means dish liquids strip wax . If you re-read my post, you'll see that I was not advocating use of Dawn as a regular car wash product.

It is common knowlege that wax does not break down and have to be buffed off. Old wax can be removed by hand polishing or by applying a coat of cleaner wax over it . You can remove wax with 64 : 1 water/Simple Green or Meguiar's All Purpose Cleaner Plus or with good old Dawn . It may not make sense to you but, trust me, it makes sense ...

The scratches everyone is worried about here are not in the wax but in the paint itself.

You say I have a distorted view of sealants. Maybe that is because I need sunglasses to look at a Zaino shine LOL !
Zaino is different in more ways than durability : Z-2 Pro and Z-5 Pro can be put on in multiple coats for more protection and depth of shine . Z-CS can be applied and simply left to dry with no buffing or wiping off. Z-AIO can be used as a base coat or by itself as a sealant with mild cleaning properties . Z-2 Pro gives you a slicker, glossier finish than most other products and it stays glossy . I've used sealants by Westleys, Blue Coral, Auri, Astro Shield, Duragloss, AM and others and I know there are big differences among them . So far, Zaino is the best line of products I've found for my purposes.

You misread the Meguiar's forum post : The guy was not buying the DA polisher to remove wax ; He was simply asking how to remove wax. He wanted a DA polisher to apply waxes and polishes and you are wrong about the DA wearing down the paint. You could use a DA and Meguiars SFP for the rest of your life and not remove a significant amount of paint.
DA polishing will do no damage at all . Repeated polishing will not scratch the paint and will not make compounding necessary. You are being irresponsible and unfair in your slamming of Meguiar's .

Doug

Pro-Techt, thank you for elaborating about the Ferrari. Point taken.

Bill, I am a correction detailer. I take cars that have scratches and swirls on them. I do a full strip of the wax and other contaminants so I can see and work with the bare paint. The marks in the paint do not disappear when the wax is gone. Wax itself does not get marked like that, it is too thin to make a conspicuous impression on the eye. Paint gets marked, either lightly or heavily, but it is the paint. And I see it on new or used cars so any doubt in my mind is gone.

Doug

Quote:
It is common knowlege that wax does not break down and have to be buffed off

This statement is just plain nonsense. Anything can break down over time. If you are stripping something off you are basically breaking it down to remove it . Micheal Stoops states :While a single wash with a dishwashing detergent may not remove all the wax/sealant on a vehicle, especially if the coat of wax/sealant is very fresh (hence, detergent resistant - not detergent proof), multiple washes will. This is why what you say does not make sense. Those things you mention may not totally remove the wax layer with one washing in all cases, so there may be some left that cause what you see on this BMW. The scratches that you see here appear to be from washing, I have shown other examples from other posts on brand new cars that show the same type of marring. Clearly, one washing would not produce scratches in the paint .



Quote:

You misread the Meguiar's forum post : The guy was not buying the DA polisher to remove wax ; He was simply asking how to remove wax. He wanted a DA polisher to apply waxes and polishes and you are wrong about the DA wearing down the paint


First, The DA does not wear the paint down. Polishes and compound do. DA's are used for more than applying wax, so I think it would be safe to assume that when his truck starts to look like this BMW (which it will) that he will be using it for more than applying wax.


Quote:

You are being irresponsible and unfair in your slamming of Meguiar's


I am not the one charging big money to correct problems caused by using these products which you and others here see no problem with.
I am showing people how to avoid these problems and I am slammed . No one has shown me as wrong, but continue to dispute what I say with zero facts. You and profile have not tried AT-5, but you continue to argue with me. In fact, you and others here tried to get me banned from this
forum for stating what I know, so please get off your high horse and stop judging what I say which is what I consider unfair.


Quote:

Zaino is different in more ways than durability : Z-2 Pro and Z-5 Pro can be put on in multiple coats for more protection and depth of shine . Z-CS can be applied and simply left to dry with no buffing or wiping off. Z-AIO can be used as a base coat or by itself as a sealant with mild cleaning properties . Z-2 Pro gives you a slicker, glossier finish than most other products and it stays glossy . I've used sealants by Westleys, Blue Coral, Auri, Astro Shield, Duragloss, AM and others and I know there


Personally, I do not see any real difference. From what you say here it it shines better , and that is it. Adding more coats does not create more protection.It may create a thicker barrier to collect dirt and grime in, but will it stop birding dropping from going through it? That is the real question
IMO when talking about protection. Waxes/sealants do not bond to the clear, they stick and adhere and hardened over time.


It is funny you ask me to trust what you say, but for some reason you do not give me the same respect.





Profile Detailer

Quote:


The marks in the paint do not disappear when the wax is gone. Wax itself does not get marked like that, it is too thin to make a conspicuous impression on the eye. Paint gets marked, either lightly or heavily, but it is the paint. And I see it on new or used cars so any doubt in my mind is gone



You are right that some marks in the paint do not disappear when the wax is removed, Clearly, some are in the clear itself, and need buffing to remove them. Although, it makes no sense to believe that all the scratches seen in the before pics are in the clear itself, nor can you show they are either. This car looks like it was washed with sand paper. Go to any forum and you will see many examples of this very condition on all types of cars. It is insane to believe that all cars looking like this are scratched soo badly that they are all in the clear itself.

Why do I know this? Because the vehicles I apply AT-5 to never have this problem. I have applied this product to hundreds of cars, and have never seen one car that has ever looked like this BMW does after a year, so I know that using wax/sealants leads to this problems. Sure, I see scratches in the paint, but nothing like this.


You are the one who started this post, but I am wondering why? Is it the price charged? For me it is the fact that this person may have to repaint his car. Detailing to me is protecting the paint from repainting. Everyone is concerned how much clear you can remove, correcting flaws, and
which product has the better shine and beads waters.

On ever forum, someone is asking the question with no answer. How do I keep my new paint looking new, protected, and glossy looking . The same old advice is handed out, but it all comes back to this question:


Nov 10th, 2011 02:01 PM #1 Trauma
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Registered Member


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Join Date:May 2011
Location:Jericho New York
Posts:17Rep Power:1Ultimate compound left surface faded and dull?
So I have a 2011 Wrangler, its a year old now and it has some deep water spots and swirls all over I want off. (Its black, total pain in the *** color)

I picked up some ult compound today and used it lightly on a 6"x6" area of the hood to test it out. It left the area dull and with noticeable circular patterns from using the product.

Am I supposed to be using something afterwards to buff the surface back to a shine or did I just ruin my paint with this stuff?

Mind you I was not aggressive in my application in any way.



One year old, and it has some deep water spots and swirls all over I want off. (Its black, total pain in the *** color). Let's see what a correction detailer says on how to fix it.




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Join Date:Nov 2009
Location:Richmond, VA
Posts:62Rep Power:2Re: Ultimate compound left surface faded and dull?
HI sorry to hear that it left your finish dull and swirled.
I assume you used it by hand?
I have found that it works great with a DA polisher myself, but if you don't have one...
Well depending on the paint, was it ever repainted? It may be very soft clear coat.
Try using a less aggressive product, like SwirlX or Ultimate Polish. Or even just a Cleaner Wax.
It certainly sounds like your paint is soft.


One year old, and the owner is using compound to correct this problem, and this correction detailer advises using a DA. Keep sticking your heads in the sand and continue to believe that using waxes/sealants are not the problem here, and you do not have to wonder why the public has such a low opinion of this industry.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2011 03:49PM by billd55.