The age old question about restoration - rebodying!?

OK....I already know there are mix of opions of what a "real restoration" is, but I have to ask for some opinions. I have a 69 PHS documented Judge that was saved from a junk yard. IT IS ROUGH, but is a Judge.

It literally needs every panel on the car except the roof! My question is, do I spend the time and money welding in aftermarket panels to make it all solid again, or do I find a Lemans Donor and do a body swap?

Thing is, a body swap would be easier and probably cleaner, but I am struggling about feeling right about it, especially when you consider the potential value of this car...

I want to do it right, what ever that is....anyone's two cents is certainly welcome!

Hey man, I would replace every body panel just because it is a 69 Judge! I know that it will cost alot of $$ but in the long run you will have a true Judge! Not some clone, because lets face it, there are a lot of clones running around that some people don't even have a clue to what they really are, be it a Lemans being passed off as a GTO or a Chevelle Malibu for a 396 SS. This is just my opinion, I have seen to many FAKES at car shows! I hope this will help you consider your alternatives.

Like you say there are alot of opinions of how to do a resto, A friend of mine is the original owner of his 69 Judge, he pulled it out of his dads barn in the late 80s and did a body on resto. he had to replace 80% of the panels on the car, if he had it to do all over again he wouldd rebody it and still may, a vin is transferable to another body, a body doesnt make the car what it is, its the vin and the options, in laymans terms its the same as if you replaced a door with one off of a lemans. Or how bout this are the welds you replace the panels with goin to be the same or replicate the authenticity of the factory welds found on the the donor body built on the same assembly line as your rusted out body? Not trying to sound like an a__, but I started doing resto work for a living and its not worth the time working with junk when you have a very acceptable replacement component. Just my opinion thats all. Have a nice day Dean

You both make points that have me on the fence.

Harry - to your point, I would have a true Judge, but with aftermarket, Non-GM panels...is that acceptible as a true Judge? I would definately feel better about it being original, by putting the time and work into it, but Dean makes a good point too.

A Lemans tub is more original than the aftermarket panels, but still isn't "original" to the car that I have. This option seems to be the best as far as quality quality goes, but again.

I guess that raises a good question....what does "original" mean?

I don't want to pull in somewhere when this thing is done and have it shreaded by someone that really knows their car. I want it to even be so nice that they can't tell how I restored it...I also want to try to get the value and respect that it deserves...

P.S. Looking for a WS RA III engine...can anyone help?

Me have'ing almost the same problem with my 68 gto Ram Air i took a 69 tempest no rust any place and took a plasma cuter to it drilld out most of all the old tac welds replaced metal around my rear window last week with that of the tempest also added the trunk floor and lower section of Qtr's had it done over the week end. well all the tac-ing but not the welding.But I have a nice size shop and alot of tool's to make it easy'er i would take a tempest or a lemans and cut it to H*&#@ and back and put it all back in the the Judge it will cost you far less and oh well we used another car to keep a GTO better yet a judge on the roads..HEHE Tarvis



travis williams

Travis - I was waiting to hear from you! I know you do a lot of this work, so I wanted to hear your thoughts. You are out on the west coast, correct? Not sure what you get for rust out there, here is what this Judge needs...

Complete interior floor, including under rear seats
Floor that extends into the firewall
Complete trunk
Full quarters
Inner and outer wheel wells, rear
Rockers....skins at a minimum
Panel between deck lid and rear window

Of course Doors and Fenders. Doors could probably be saved with a reskin, but not sure if that is cost effective & quality as opposed to just getting a pair. Fenders are no big deal, but I could probably save one of them.

In short, the Roof is usable, but will reqiure patchwork around the rear window...rusted out.

What is good...it is a Judge!

The other concern I have is the hidden rust. I can do all the patching in the world, but if I don't kill it all, it will be back. A rebody seems easiest and best, but I just don't feel right about doing a VIN swap, legal or not.

Since this site is full of opinions I am going to offer another. Dont break the VIN rivets. Buy a parts car and make the Judge work. Roof and all. Once the rivets are broken there is no way to say that particular car is a judge or not. So make it work. Again thats just my opinion. Where are you located. I am in So Cal and I have heard horror stories about East Coast and Midwest cars. Good Luck and keep the Judge a Judge not a Lemans with a different Vin #. Lance 1967 GTO 400 4sp 3.55 Posi.

Here is the history with the car as I know it right now. It was originally purchased and resided in Pennsylvania. My guess is the engine was blown and pulled and the car sat (It was last registered in 1976) The odometer shows 75 K, based on the last regestration, I believe it to be correct. (Still trying to find out, though).

I am also guessing that the rotting was due to sitting. Once it got beyond a bad to worse point, I am again guessing that all of the Judge components were either stolen, stripped and sold or something.

It made it into a salvage yard 8 years ago and was pulled out less than 2 months ago. That guy sold it to another PA resident who sold it to a guy in Southern CA. (head spinning yet????) I bought it from him off of e-bay and picked it up last Monday. The car is now in Wisconsin.

I have requested last owner information from PA DOT and am hoping to contact that person....maybe there is a chance that the engine is sitting in a barn...it has happened. It may also help me understand if it is actual milage and probably even a 1 owner vehicle.

I have also submitted for a title through Broadway title and am awaiting that paperwork.

Anyway, the stories you have heard are correct. East coast and Midwest take a rust beating. I have pics if anyone is interest. I want to get a web site, but until then, I would be happy to e-mail some directly.

I am really torn. I do agree with you Lance, I don't want to break the rivets and don't want to be one of those guys that takes the easy way out... Maybe after you see the pics, you will rethink your opinion. I would really like to repair what I have, and think it can be done....but then I think about what would be the best end product & lean toward a re-body.

I respect and appreciate all of the opinions offered. Even the guy I bought it from said fix it...fix it...After he saw the pics, he said "don't feel bad about a rebody....it would be tough to save that one".

wow If it was me it would go into the garage and push out the dayly driver and put this in its spot and i would get anohter part's car with out any rust if you can find one there. If not look around in the seattle portland classifieds there a common car out here and not that pricey for tempest lemans you could get a nice driver with out any rust running for around 2500.00 to 3500.00 out here ..and after drilling out all spot welds and cuting in the right spot's youll have perfect panels for your neads and parts galore..never can have to many of those. here you go if it was me first thing i would do is strip her down to nothing find a chemical striper and get it dipd in a ACID bath it will remove every bit of rotten metal rust cancer and it will take of all paint plastic rubber every thing.. after that thet should reprep body part's with a etching primer to seal the metal from future rust. then youll know what nead's to be replaced.. This process isnt cheap and in some states its uninviromentally unsave..$$$$ like here in Oregon..but can find some place to get it done. then it's time to pull out the donner project and start drilling out all tac welds and get a seam spliting knife and thats about it..And a welding tourch to melt old lead remember to dispose of old lead properly $$ P.S youll nead to remove and properly get the Old Lead out of the body piller to roof removed old lead loses its strenght And put new lead in these areas again if you have never lead'd before its quit easy easyer then it was 10 years ago Just remember lead fumes will poison you.Use A resperater you can get a beginner kit from eastwood products and or TP tools and equipment for under 120.00 you get the lead wood paddels video and wax etc etc awesome and can save you alot of time and money practice makes perfect you really cant mess up with lead except you can never clean the area good another 1st major problem w/lead. Well iam getting off track take your boy if you have one or your girl and take her out with you and make it a family affair My dad bought a 55 chevy belair when i was 3 and has had it ever sence when i was in JR high school we put it back together took several years.So when i got to the age of 16 i had a choice 55 belair to drive to school in . And it was a son and dad project that brought us close together and untill that time i never knew my DAD well this project made us almost best of friends.. And with out that I wouldnt be building cars etc etc nore would i be part owner of my dads machine shop..besides it will keep your kids off drugs.. A high from takeing something thats junk to your friend and turn it into a show stoper there is no other better high..then knowing you did it your self...well with help from your kid or kids... P.S iam 31 years of age and have been in the garage and the track as long as i remember And i can thank my old man for damn near every thing i know.
Well i guess iam saying get a donner and start the reconstruction surgery on your baby. but getting it dipd no matter the rust is the best way to start.. Iam pleased with my job ive did lately on my GTO and if you dont have experiance you will after this get books read read and read some more to get a idea to were to start and what tools youl nead to make it easyer 4 U.after that it all gos together..And yes i want to see your photos of your car and ill send you some of mine
P.S they dont make factory replacement rivets for your VIN and you can tell if its orig,or not,, My 5 cents worth keeping a judge on its orig frame body etc will bring the price of car up also there is a vin number in the rear right hand area close to the purch close to gas tank.... removeing that would be costly to if you are to resell it later Travis the pontiac guy hope you luck and keep us updated please...sound fun i know youll enjoy it..



travis williams

Travis - sounds like we grew up the same....I credit all I do to my Dad too. In fact, he took the venture to PA with me to get the car. It was great!

Is there a sight that I can post pics? If not, give me your e-mail address and I will send them to you.

The only pitfall to finding a donor out your way is the expense of getting it back to WIS. It would easily be $1000 if I came to get it or if I had it shipped. Now you are looking at $3500. Still not a bad price, but as a father of 3 and a husband, I am looking more at 1 peice at a time....that is what the budget says anyway

Any idea where I could get it dipped?

Hey guys, I'm new to this forum...... Where can I find a valance panel for a 1970 Le Mans? And also I'm looking for the 6 foot long sail fin looking piece of metal that the front bumper bolts up to. I can email you a pic of my bent one if that helps.... Thanks.



1970 Pontiac Le Mans

Look on e-bay. There are a few used ones posted out there right now.

not sure of any place out there you can get it dipd call around some of the better body shops somebody should know..
P.S i just put a pair of door skins on a friend 69 gto for him never did it before was surprized wow easy it was.. he bought them from OPG they are really nice i would try that first saved him some money..... he's inner doors were good it took me about 3 hours to do the first and the second went alot easyer... P.S i have a 69 i'am cutting up as we speak iam takeing the trunk floors back rear window section and part's of qtr's there is no rust on car if you are in nead of good metal let me know ill be happy to cut out for you and i wont charge for cutting it out.. it neads to be done i have good floor boards good top section above side windows windows and befor rear window with was cut at the end of the chrome drip molding. rocker panels if you nead some good metal let me know... Travis the pontiac guy..



travis williams

Travis - Do you have a phone number that I can reach you at? I can be e-mailed directly at tony.walton@teldta.com. Get a hold of me, I definately need some sheet metal!

I would also like to talk with you about the skins. I have thought about it, but was not sure how to do them.

I am about 1/2 way through a full frame off restro. on a '66 4 spd GTO, and
have had alot of thoughts burn through my head and my pocket book. In the long run I'm sure I took the right path.........a full frame off with panels
was a good way to go.
My question is, with the body in that shape whats the frame like? That was
my biggest problem. Hidden damage, body mount location rust etc. Check
it real good!
RPM

Rob - surprisingly, the frame is great! The body mounts all look good. I think my car was more a victim of sitting under a tree somewhere and rusted from the top down. Seals leaked, windows leaked, and the rest rotted. It is an Eastern car and they are as subject to rust as Wisconsin cars.

It was last registered in 1975, so that is why I feel that sitting took it's toll. I do believe that I will be taking the same route as you. I have since gotten a 69 parts gto that I will be taking the mechanicals from. Body is as bad as mine, but I will be offering it up on e-bay as a project. I am sure there is someone out there with a Lemans donor that would like a true GTO. I do currently have one interest in it & they have first option (right David W?)

I will be working with Travis "the pontiac guy" Williams on some body parts.

The only way I would consider a rebody at this point is if I found a rust free 69 GTO tub that I could purchase reasonably. I actually have found one for $1200, which is priced right, but when you think about 60 hours of drive time (round trip) and another $750 in gas, and another $250 for a trailer rental, you have a pretty good bill going. All and all, still reasonable, but I ain't single anymore....my wife and kids take up most of my funds!

I am a believer that anything can be saved if your heart is into it. I just got torn between the highest quailty restoration and the concern of hidden & reoccuring rot. If you could see my car, you would understand!