Problems For The Pros

On reading the forums, I find pros often complain about enthusiasts and fly-by-night detailers working out of car trunks. These pros see a threat from anyone with a can of Turtle Wax ; every job done by such people is seen as a job lost to a pro shop.
I disagree. I say that even a knowlegable amateur is unlikely to own the equipment he needs and to have access to a heated garage. If he is well-off enough to afford a pro detail, he probably doesn't have the time to do it himself.
As for the car trunk operator, his customer is usually a bargain-hunter who would never pay what a pro would charge. If the fly-by-nighter were not available, that price shopper's car would never get detailed.
As I see it, the biggest thorn in the side of the professional shop is the competing shop that charges low prices but has the credibility of a well-equipped and insured operation. I refer here to car dealers, car washes and others who practically give away their services. They drive prices down.
Another major problem is the " Catch 22 " that you face if you open a first-class shop. The investment is so much that you need a large volume of cars simply to break even. The number of cars may require you to immediately hire employees to get all the work done. When the smoke clears, you may not have made much money. Part of the answer is to charge enough but there is a limit on what most customers will pay.
We used to say you can't change the weather but Al Gore and others dispute that today. Still, winters and rainy days can take a toll on profits. This problem is often underestimated.
My advice : There is no reason to insult the amateurs who post or to post bogus advice to them. Be assured that customers can see the difference between entrusting their cars to to a " guy " out in the sun and taking it to an established shop.
Doug

Doug,
What part of this puzzle do you fit into?

A) Professional detailing full time business owner?
Part time detailer for cash?
C) Enthusiast
D) B & C



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/10/2007 12:34AM by Simone.

Simone :
Owing to cold weather and some recent physical problems, I'm not doing anything with cars right now except maintaining my own fleet.
I had hoped to graduate from "street whore" to full-fledged "brothel owner" but the obstacles seem daunting.
1) Overhead is likely to force one to charge more than people around here are willing to pay.
2) Until people tried my service, my claims of superior quality would sound like the usual puffery.
3) In the winter here, no one gets out of the car except to run into the house so business evaporates-but the rent still comes due.
4) Older men are more likely to suffer injuries and be sidelined from a physical job like detailing. If that happens, you are at the mercy of your employees.
5) You cannot find and keep good employees unless you pay them enough and no detail shop seems able to pay much.
In short, I've tried to get the skills and process down before looking at the business aspects. Once I analyzed the business side of the equation, I got discouraged.
I hope I'm some help to others and wish luck to anyone who takes the plunge and goes legitimate.
Doug

I understand your woes, however most of your comments are based on internet forum enthusiasm. The business knowledge you have acquired about the detailing market has been primarily based on what you have read on enthusiast pro forums.
Points in fact; Many $500,000 + gross detailing / recon business are making money in the world. Some of those are in nasty weather locations and some are in sunny California. Most of your fellow enthusiast comrades who call themselfs Pro’s are nothing more then glorified weekend worriers. I would say, the bulk of this industry is people like yourself, part timers working for cash.

Good for you Simone. Tell it like it is for this man.

Professional detail forums do not want to assist the do it yourselfer because this is a professional forum, or should be in any case. Where professionals exchange ideas that will help each other in business.

We are not here to help the do it yourselfer learn the professional tricks of the trade.

If Delmont wants to say it is because it is taking jobs out of our shops then so be it. But you do not help the competition.

Bud A

Bud :
The words "Secrecy" and "Forum" don't go together well. If you feel it necessary to brush off the layman who asks a question and avoid helping your competition, perhaps you need a password-accessed forum open only to bona fide pros who provide proof of shop or mobile rig ownership and tax return info for a couple of years. Then no amateur will be able to read your secrets when you post. Otherwise you are helping everyone whether you like it or not.
Such a restricted forum as I postulate above might end up a forum of one member, a blog, instead...
Doug

Again, Delmont, I ask why a detailer who makes his living detailing cars would want to share this hard earned knowledege with a do it yourselfer.

Bud Abraham

Again, Delmont, I ask why a detailer who makes his living detailing cars would want to share this hard earned knowledege with a do it yourselfer.

Bud Abraham

Bud-
I think it is nice to help others. The do-it-yourselfers are often just motorists with a specific problem, not people who intend to spend hours detailing their own cars. I hate to see someone who asks how to get road grime off his fender being given doubletalk instead of help.
All of the trade secrets in the world will not enable an ill-equipped and time-stretched motorist to get professional results anyway. I simply doubt that the DIY guy would hire a detailer instead if we didn't help him. There are customers out there and there are people who prefer to drive dirty cars and save their money.
It is never my intention to discourage people from buying professional services. Also, I do not believe in brushing off questions to force them to hire a pro.
I wonder how you'd feel if you visited Autopia and were refused answers because the enthusiasts resented helping a pro out.
Doug

I have to agree with Doug on this one. I dont think that DIY guys compete with Pros. When a DYI guy see how much work it is to do a super job he will go to a pro anyhow.

Doug,

Most of us share information privately you won’t see on any forum. I have read enough of your inaccurate enthusiast driven information. Doug, how many vehicles have you personally detailed 1000's, or is it just a few dozen. You remind me of one of those guy’s who has never thrown a football in his life, but knows everything about Pro ball by watching TV.

Autopia??? Most of us read those posts for laughs.

Simone :
You have every right to keep your knowlege private. I simply object to practices such as providing deliberately false or confusing answers, discourtesy to newcomers, etc.
Some of my posts are indeed enthusiast-oriented but I resent your calling them "inaccurate" without giving specifics.
I have not claimed to know it all except in jest.
If you want a laugh, consider how I felt when I tried a "professional" wax that had been promoted on this forum only to find that it produced a duller finish than my amateur products. You might also question the advice of one of your deities not to detail wheel wells. Some of the strangest ideas come from some pros.
Okay. Now for something constructive :
In the post-WWII period, clothing companies noticed that men were not wasting enough money on stylish clothes. Men wore clothes until they wore out. This was remedied by an ad campaign that directed women to take their husbands shopping for clothes and to take charge. Your industry needs to do something similar : to make detailing a customary thing to buy ; to make clean cars an essential part of enjoying motoring, dating, sanitation, business and personal image-maybe even essential maintenance like oil changes.
The above is the kind of thing you should focus on-NOT on how to keep some motorist from removing his own coffee stain.
Doug



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2007 12:53AM by Doug Delmont.

Oh Doug,
I do wheel wells, only when the clients pay to do wheel wells.
Detailing wheel wells is based on cost. In the “real world” you need to be compensated properly for cleaning and dressing wheel wells. In the “enthusiasts world” all you have is time and no costs against the job. If you actually understand the real world of professional business profitability, then you will chuckle also. Nothing is, what it appears to be on “Pro Enthusiasts Forums. Let me say, you aren’t hearing the full stories behind the photo’s!

Simone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Doug,
>
> Most of us share information privately you won’t
> see on any forum. I have read enough of your
> inaccurate enthusiast driven information. Doug,
> how many vehicles have you personally detailed
> 1000's, or is it just a few dozen. You remind me
> of one of those guy’s who has never thrown a
> football in his life, but knows everything about
> Pro ball by watching TV.
>
> Autopia??? Most of us read those posts for laughs.

Hey, I like Autopia.Some on Autopia have no idea whats going on, but most do know what there doing.

I’m sure you enjoy that forum and so do I, but for some serious laughs.


Larry A Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Simone Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Doug,
> >
> > Most of us share information privately you
> won’t
> > see on any forum. I have read enough of your
> > inaccurate enthusiast driven information.
> Doug,
> > how many vehicles have you personally detailed
> > 1000's, or is it just a few dozen. You remind
> me
> > of one of those guy’s who has never thrown a
> > football in his life, but knows everything
> about
> > Pro ball by watching TV.
> >
> > Autopia??? Most of us read those posts for
> laughs.
>
> Hey, I like Autopia.Some on Autopia have no idea
> whats going on, but most do know what there doing.

Simone-
Maybe it is just me but I sense a mean-spirited attitude in your statement about laughing at Autopia. You give no specifics about what is funny so I am assuming you think it is funny when people lack knowlege or make mistakes. If, in fact, there are problems on Autopia, you should feel sorry for the people, not laugh at them.
Pardon me if I take issue with men who set themselves up as authorities/salesmen and proceed to spread misinformation about any competitor's product. I find that much worse than the alleged ignorance you laugh at.
Larry and I are both trying to improve. If we are in error, I think we both welcome correction from you. Unsupported accusations of incompetence are not constructive, though.
I understand your reasoning in regard to wheel wells. I reject it because I can do wheel wells fast, not because of things I read. If you want to save time, I suggest omitting engine cleaning and its attendant risks. I skip the spare tire compartment. The overall exterior and interior effects are the same. I do not waste time trying to get encrusted wheels perfect ; the wheels are brushed with chemical and pressure rinsed. I never remove seats.
Right now I am experimenting with " Invisible Undercarriage Spray" from www.adamspolishes.com. New Again recommended Mop & Glo on wheel wells, so obviously some pros find time to do them.
Doug



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/20/2007 04:46PM by Doug Delmont.

The enthusiast forums are run by people who sell wax, also I have no reason to help kids be better detailers. The enthusiast forums have become counterproductive for our professional detailing industry. Why don’t I give exact references to my opinions? My views aren’t open for your none educated enthusiastic debate. Walk on the coals for awhile, then we will talk!!! The only reason I commented on your original post is because it came from Mobileworks, my tread. Obviously your lurking and not posting for most obvious reasons. Once again your comments are based on a part-time detailing for cash enthusiast attitude.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/20/2007 07:19PM by Simone.

Doug: I think you might make a good banjo, easier to pick on than share information or clean someones car.

Crowbait-
You may have a point there ! (LOL)
Doug

This is my first post here soooo hello all. id like to think im a pro detailer orrr whats the hot term this year Auto reconditioning tech lmao i been detailing since 1996 and do an average of 60 cars more or less a month from tht time to present. I personaly enjoy (i think its dougs forum) i enjoy the fact tht doug will disagree with whatever he dosent find convinceing. keep up the good work! As for the pros haveing secret meetings and discusing the magic gimme a break. I personaly think half the pros have there head up ther wazoo.

What’s the problem with a group of detailers getting together in private and sharing information benefitting them, not you? Why is that so hard to comprehend?

Your right about “personally thinking half the pros have there head up there wazoo”. Most of them are on enthusiast forums portraying themselfs as such. Thanks for clearing all that up GM.

Did i say there was a problem? Can i comprehend your little group of pro buddies telling each other secrets and how pro all of u are and to cross your hearts and hope to die if these secret skills only u have are ever leaked i sure can. Now do u think that your the only one who knows anything about detailing? Do you even remember when you first started out? I guess i wasnt born with the amazing skills or a membership to the world famous secret detailing society of the great simone but i do my best and that keeps my customers extreamly happy. Detailing to me is about constant education in useing diferent products systems and technique to get the results your customer desires. Its great to see people trying to sift through the million products to develope there own process and or creating a forum to discuse there findings to the public.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/2007 06:14PM by GM.

?

San Antonio Mobile Auto Detail
Martin Hernandez
210.213.3782
[www.saMobileCarWash.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2009 05:11PM by MartinHernandez.

At least doug who admits to being an enthuiast has an email address,unlike all the new supposed pros here which are hidden?Not too professional to me....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2007 10:30AM by Pro Mobile Details.

Gentlemen:

The real question is not personal attacks, but the wisdom of detailers who make their living detailing cars sharing this information with do-it-yourselfers.

It is not what is not what is the socially acceptable thing to do, but if a business person should provide this information.

Keep in mind that being in business is a war, in a sense, every other competitor is trying to win the customer battle same as you. Those that get more customers win the battle and the war.

Certainly, if your neighbor with whom you live and socialize asks for a tip on how to better take care of their car, I am sure as a "good neighbor" you would assist. Different situation.

On the other hand, if that neighbor were to use another detail shop to have his car detailed, it might wrangle you a bit would it not?

Hard to mix business with socially acceptable things to do.

Regards
Bud Abraham

Gentlemen:

The real question is not personal attacks, but the wisdom of detailers who make their living detailing cars sharing this information with do-it-yourselfers.

It is not what is not what is the socially acceptable thing to do, but if a business person should provide this information.

Keep in mind that being in business is a war, in a sense, every other competitor is trying to win the customer battle same as you. Those that get more customers win the battle and the war.

Certainly, if your neighbor with whom you live and socialize asks for a tip on how to better take care of their car, I am sure as a "good neighbor" you would assist. Different situation.

On the other hand, if that neighbor were to use another detail shop to have his car detailed, it might wrangle you a bit would it not?

Hard to mix business with socially acceptable things to do.

Regards
Bud Abraham

buda

BudA, Simone- I hear the bar business is a pretty good gig....but you'd have to get a permit and license to operate. LOL

Live to ride, Ride to live

Hogwash you have a pm thx



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2007 10:52AM by Pro Mobile Details.

This is also my first post, so I say Hello To all! I wanted to thanks Doug for his knowledge & more importantly...his imput. If there was no one out there to help out those that are "fly by night" detailers, then there would sure be a lot of filthy cars out there! I myself have worked as a detailer for about 3 years and I find it relaxing to work on my cars or even other people's cars. Mainly I just work on cars that I personally own, or a friend's car. Tomorrow I am working on a 04' SL500 (guess what color....beautiful black) which is on 20" Lowenharts. Are there any "pointers" that I should know about when I am going through the motions? I've been using Meg's NXT Tech wax....it looks great! Did it once when I bought the car...lasted a while!! I Am finding litle bits of sap and such on the paint and it's been a bit since I have used a clay bar. I think (I know I will) I might practice on my Camary before...Thanks again Doug...also you Bud...

This is also my first post, so I say Hello To all! I wanted to thanks Doug for his knowledge & more importantly...his imput. If there was no one out there to help out those that are "fly by night" detailers, then there would sure be a lot of filthy cars out there! I myself have worked as a detailer for about 3 years and I find it relaxing to work on my cars or even other people's cars. Mainly I just work on cars that I personally own, or a friend's car. Tomorrow I am working on a 04' SL500 (guess what color....beautiful black) which is on 20" Lowenharts. Are there any "pointers" that I should know about when I am going through the motions? I've been using Meg's NXT Tech wax....it looks great! Did it once when I bought the car...lasted a while!! I Am finding litle bits of sap and such on the paint and it's been a bit since I have used a clay bar. I think (I know I will) I might practice on my Camary before...Thanks again Doug...also you Bud...